Par or watts?

[Sask420grow]

Here’s the debate. What should you use when selecting a light, par value or watt output. This was a post I made on another group that led to the debate of par value vs watt output. Apparently watt output is irrelevant now

So who using LED and is not aware they are scamming you when it comes to wattage? Basically the short of it is; they say it “puts out 2-3-4000w but only uses 400w of true power!” Ask yourself how 400w of true power from wall can be converted UP to 2-3-4000w. I didn’t understand and when told I denied until I did my research and sure enough!! ITS A SCAM for unsuspecting buyers. Ignorant buyers if you will. I bought a 2000w king plus led under the impression it will REPLACE my 1000w HPS magnetic ballast set up. Fact is it doesn’t. Fact is it won’t convert UP. They trick you by using 10w builds BUT those cannot be ran at full 10w so they are regulated to 3-4w for longevity and sustainability. You can take it apart and add peaces to force the 10w build to use 10w but then it only last a quarter it’s life expectancy. LED systems are a scam from what I’ve gathered. Especially the blurples. Some COBS and quantum boards are legit but the price reflects that. If your looking st getting an LED system, I strongly suggest doing a lot of research on them AND their competition. I bet you will save the money for the better units. That’s what I’m doing now lol. Good thing I still have the 1000w HPS magnetic lol

 

[PE636]

Watts are input, not output.

 

[PE636]

Sorry to hear about your troubles, hope you can get sorted out... All the "equivalency" marketing BS is just that. Definitely some garbage out there but the quality stuff from reputable and honest companies (of which there are a good few) are definitely not a scam. For example I have a 300 watt QB fixture that makes a 400 hps seem like a flashlight with dying batteries, and with an extremely even distribution of light and a quarter or less of the heat. It wasn't cheap exactly but should last a long time and has already grown many times its cost worth of bud.
But to answer your question, watts, even actual draw wattage, really doesn't mean much unless you are trying to figure the cost of electricity to run it... My QB is a couple years old and already the newer diodes are like 20 percent more efficient.

 

[Emilya Green]

The best way to tell if a light array is not what they claim is by looking at the wattage that it pulls from the wall. If you have a 1000w light that is only pulling 100w from the wall, you know that you were lied to. Every light is different however in how much PAR they are putting out using that wattage. As you surmised, many of the LED manufacturers run their lights at far less than their maximum output for heat and longevity reasons.
I too was disgusted by this practice and looked into building my own COB array. I was impressed with the COB technology and that I could run them at their full wattage. The light that I ended up with can actually generate too much light, and I like that. Now I use the wattage to approximate the amount of light I am going to be getting out, but without my $30 light meter I would have no idea how much PAR I am hitting the plants with. PAR for me is the final measure... the wattage is just an approximation to get me there.

 

[Greenlizard]

I feel the same way. I don't appreciate being lied to or mislead and that's why I grow with CMH. TRUE POWER.
Some of the more well known LED manufacturers don't hide their true watts in tiny fine print and can be trusted. Most of them are sponsors here and I would consider their products with confidence. Be very careful if you shop the bowels of the internet for a cheap LED. When reading up on LED lights, as soon as I see that 2000, 3000 watt nonsense I just move on and stop reading.

 

[Chris Scorpio]

I started with HPS, do no wool over my eyes

Now all I run are QBs white light LED
I measure the watt draw with a meter if I'm dimming them

But I think PAR and watts go hand in hand...kinda

But 500w of light 4' away is pointless

Think the consumer or user needs to manage both, par and watts, to the best of his ability

 

[Greenlizard]

I started with HPS, do no wool over my eyes

Now all I run are QBs white light LED
I measure the watt draw with a meter if I'm dimming them

But I think PAR and watts go hand in hand...kinda

But 500w of light 4' away is pointless

Think the consumer or user needs to manage both, par and watts, to the best of his ability

I agree. If I were to consider swapping out my CMH fixtures I would only do it for QB's. They look to be the most efficient method. Budget LED, and Mars Hydro both sell QB style fixtures.

 

[Emilya Green]

And I align more with the COB line and of course Timber is also one of our sponsors. My next grow I will be using the NextLight Mega that i won here however, and I trust that one is going to outperform most anything I have ever used.

 

[bluter]

trouble is the whole industry is non-regulated. there are led builders that do try to honestly represent the products, but they will always be undercut by the junk makers, who can basically claim what they want with impunity.

part of the issue is growers firmly link watts to production, as that was the relationship under the old tech. it oversimplified the issue, and cheese led builders took full advantage.

i run 200 w veg and 600 w flower cob rigs. i can say with absolute confidence they replace an HID equivalent of 400 w and 1200 w respectively. i only make that claim as i have worked with all the fixtures. it is not a manufacturers claim. i build my own rigs.

@Budget LED for quantum and @TimberGrowLights for cob is the best advice on this board. would look at them in that order. there is nothing overly wrong with a mars light either. they are not at the quality level of the others , using cheaper drivers and epistar leds. i personally have trouble supporting a company with such direct links to a brutal governing apparatus, which is at direct odds to our way of existing. not everyone is going to consider that in a purchase decision.

 

[Southerncough]

It also boils down to what works best for the individual.
As cannabis becomes more and more mainstream there will be more and more people out to make a buck on hot trends with little concern for doing right by their customers. Hence giving the honest companies that do put in the workmanship and research a bad name by flooding the market with cheap junk lights.
Gone are the days of indoor gardens with repurposed street lights LOL.
That being said HPS will always be solid but not for everyone.
But some folks have more to deal with aside from the power the light consumes.
In my case running HPS or a CMH brought a host of other issues to deal with like crap tons of heat. Sure, if i was in a Canadian basement i could keep the whole house warm with them, but in my tropical garage heat is my biggest concern.
I wound up switching to a QB setup just to get my heat under control because it's tough to be discreet when there's with all the noise of multiple fans and an AC running full blast just to stay under 100 °. Is it as intense as my 315 CMH? No, but i just pulled down my first harvest from it and oh my was it sticky and stanky!!
A comprise in par i can live with!

 

[Elevated Lighting Company]

@bluter thanks for the mention.

The debate shouldn't be about fake advertised wattage & par. Wattage and par have a relationship value. This is a major miss conception in the market. Higher wattage in turn will make higher PAR output. However, there are many factors that can impact this ratio. Driver efficiency and LED diode efficacy A cheap driver may have a 20% loss when reaching to the LED diodes. A good driver and efficient diode will make a better watt / par ratio. We recently had a customer put our 250w (actual draw light) against 400w of blurple (actual draw). The 250w beat the 400w in all categories; yield, plant size/development, cost of energy, etc. The customer was shocked and asked us why. A 400w actual draw poorly made light will have a much higher driver loss rate than a high quality one. It will also have poor LED efficacy. In the end, the customer would have actually saved more money buying our light upfront rather than loading up on cheaper alternatives. However, we have a higher upfront cost. We estimated the 400w blurple was actually getting 300 watts out of the LED board. Our 250w light gets about 240w out of the LED board. Then, the diode took over. A higher performing diode won (Samsung) versus cheap (Epistar).

So when determining an LED, there are many factors to consider - the diode, the driver efficiency, the wall draw, and the company. Also, not all meanwell drivers are the same. Many cheaper LED makers are now using Meanwell drivers to make customers "think" they are getting a better performing light. It all came in relation to when Meanwell launched their XLG series and also some of their ELG models.

 

[bluter]

hlg and elg are the only mean well drivers to consider. actually the only period. i am ok with elg as i know the specs and how they are built. the hlg is still the top tho.

have noticed some fixtures have mean well drivers in the promo material, but will ship with a lower level mean well, or swap in pairu or other lesser driver.

edit : self delete as inappropriate content

 

[Elevated Lighting Company]

hlg and elg are the only mean well drivers to consider. actually the only period. i am ok with elg as i know the specs and how they are built. the hlg is still the top tho.

have noticed some fixtures have mean well drivers in the promo material, but will ship with a lower level mean well, or swap in pairu or other lesser driver.

will stay silent about who, but they are known to this board,

Yes we use HLG on most of our models. On two we use ELG drivers because of availability. The ELGs have been testing out great on our end.

The HLGs are great but they come with a mark up. Many makers do not want to pitch margin so they go for other brands our cheaper options. In the end, it impacts the customer with warranty and efficiency.

 

[bluter]

the elgs are a limited line at present, they are aimed specifically at this market and show production fixtures, with hard wear commercial application, being their primary. i come from the show production side.

 

[Chris Scorpio]

I've never looked at the ELG drivers

 

[bluter]

I've never looked at the ELG drivers

they are near the same as the hlg. the hlg got too popular, so mean well developed the elg line. warranty on elg if bought as a stand alone is better than the hlg. can't say if it is as good when bundled in a product. elg also offers a more advanced dimming option. elg drivers are very targeted in output with a lot fewer watt / output choices.

hlg is still viewed as the benchmark.

 

[Cannabomb62]

@bluter thanks for the mention.

The debate shouldn't be about fake advertised wattage & par. Wattage and par have a relationship value. This is a major miss conception in the market. Higher wattage in turn will make higher PAR output. However, there are many factors that can impact this ratio. Driver efficiency and LED diode efficacy A cheap driver may have a 20% loss when reaching to the LED diodes. A good driver and efficient diode will make a better watt / par ratio. We recently had a customer put our 250w (actual draw light) against 400w of blurple (actual draw). The 250w beat the 400w in all categories; yield, plant size/development, cost of energy, etc. The customer was shocked and asked us why. A 400w actual draw poorly made light will have a much higher driver loss rate than a high quality one. It will also have poor LED efficacy. In the end, the customer would have actually saved more money buying our light upfront rather than loading up on cheaper alternatives. However, we have a higher upfront cost. We estimated the 400w blurple was actually getting 300 watts out of the LED board. Our 250w light gets about 240w out of the LED board. Then, the diode took over. A higher performing diode won (Samsung) versus cheap (Epistar).

So when determining an LED, there are many factors to consider - the diode, the driver efficiency, the wall draw, and the company. Also, not all meanwell drivers are the same. Many cheaper LED makers are now using Meanwell drivers to make customers "think" they are getting a better performing light. It all came in relation to when Meanwell launched their XLG series and also some of their ELG models.

What about Inventronics drivers vs hlg?