Speyedr's White Widow Deep Water Culture SCROG, House & Garden Nutes - 1st Grow EVER!

[CadillacMike]

Lookin good Bro!

Only thing i would question is like what Stinkfinger said, your root masses. Seems like you should be blowing roots all over. Im only talking from my personal grow here when i say that you should invest in some hygrozyme. That stuff puts the working on your root system man. Mike Hunt kept me a believer when i thought otherwise, but i followed his advice and Blam, i had roots up the aZZZ! Tok about a week but they are rediculous. Just a friendly suggestion bud.

Other than the roots, the plants are looking quite nice. I bet you cant wait till they hit screeen!!!

 

[Speyedr]

I appreciate the advice but I'm not gonna mess with the program at this point. I wouldn't know how to modify the schedule at this point anyway. I also want to avoid any additives as I am trying to stick with the H&G program.

I'll pm SouthernWeed and ask if he knows what ppm to expect by week. With that I can see if I need to move them up early.

 

[SanibelGreen]

Don't fix it if it isn't broken! That's what I say

SG

 

[Retired One]

Sorry for the absence, I'm watching closely now and we'll get you dialed in no time.

 

[Speyedr]

Sorry for the absence, I'm watching closely now and we'll get you dialed in no time.

Ok, thanks. I will answer your PM here so it is public and we can all learn. I will also PM you back.

I am using the Roots Excelerator and pH has been really stable, not going above 6.2 at all, and right around 6.1 right now. I am using RO water with a TDS reading of about 002 before adding anything.

My last mix was Flower week 1 in 6gallons at normal strength according to their calc, using 4 week Veg and 10 week Flower:
Parts A & B - 39ml each
Roots Excelerator - 6.6ml
Multi Zen - 22.8ml

I am not using Drip Clean. Supplier didn't have any and based on the description I didn't think it necessary.

Once I mixed all of this up the TDS reading was about 550ppm. This was taken with a handheld Hanna TDS meter and with a Hanna Grow Check.

During the week PPM goes up slightly. Last night it was a little north of 560ppm. I added water to top off the res and it was at about 535ppm. Last week it got as low as 510ppm before the res change.

res temps have been under 70f, and usually more like 68f. Room goes to 78f before venting to 75f. RH has been around 55%.

Let me know if I've missed anything, and thanks for taking the time to help. I understand that life gets in the way and appreciate your willingness to spend some of the time left helping me out.

Cheers!

 

[StinkFinger]

My last mix was Flower week 1 in 6gallons at normal strength according to their calc, using 4 week Veg and 10 week

Hey Speyedr.

I'm going to let SW "drive" here. Week 1 veg would be about the PPM you mentioned, but what should week 5ish be on their calc?

Thanks for putting this out there man.

SF

[edit]Re-Read your post, noticed you mention Flower Week 1, not Veg Week 5. Sorry!

 

[Speyedr]

Hey Speyedr.

I'm going to let SW "drive" here. Week 1 veg would be about the PPM you mentioned, but what should week 5ish be on their calc?

Thanks for putting this out there man.

SF

[edit]Re-Read your post, noticed you mention Flower Week 1, not Veg Week 5. Sorry!

No worries. The biggest beef I have with their calc is that hey don't mention the ppm range for each given week. I'd think that would be fairly easy if they assume RO water, and it would be immensly helpful.

 

[Jasonlee247]

your plants are experiencing a magnesium deficiency. step up your nutes or add a supliment. Your roots most likely either not aerated enough (sorry, I probably missed what your using aeration wise.) or damping off, or may have a pathogen. It could also be related to the deficiency. If your plant is difficient It could effect root growth.

Just my 2cents, but that would be a first guess.

 

[Jasonlee247]

No worries. The biggest beef I have with their calc is that hey don't mention the ppm range for each given week. I'd think that would be fairly easy if they assume RO water, and it would be immensly helpful.

Take a PPM measurement with your water before and after you add nutrients. Subtract the 'Clean water" number from the 'Nutrient mix" number to get a closer reading. You have to take this reading before adding any 'non-nutrient additives' because some will include unknown salts or conductive particles. Also most well water will have calcium in it, increasing the PPM, but needs to be Chelated in order to be properly utilized by the plants.

Chelation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


...anyways, i know, Too much info, but hey. Good to know for any out there who are reading and don't know.

 

[Retired One]

Speyedr...your PPM numbers are fine for where you're at right now...I had to go back and do some PPM calcs to make sure. I'm currently in Week 1 Flower mix on the aggressive feed program, and I'm running 1050ppm this week.

H&G advises a slightly higher PH range...up to 6.5...which is a bit higher than normal nutrient packages. I've found that running the PH around 5.8 is the sweet spot for the plants. I bring this up because there is some twisting of leaves in one of your pictures, twisting that looks to me like a high PH issue.

The area of primary concern for me is the complete lack of root development. Are you using Great White, as recommended by H&G? Algen Extract? These things are designed for root health...although the Algen Extract has benefits beyond that.

I think what I'd like to see is a res change, followed by a lowering of the PH into the 5.5-5.8 range. Let's give that a try to see if we can stimulate you root system. You're growing pygmy plants on account of your underdeveloped root system...let's see if we can fix that.

BTW, the Drip clean is very important, and the lack of it allows salts to form and could possibly be contributing to your problems. I do know that the H&G line is designed to be used as a whole...when you start adding stuff to, or taking stuff away, it can react in wildly unpredictable ways.

Hope this helps and I'll keep an eye out on you.

 

[Speyedr]

your plants are experiencing a magnesium deficiency. step up your nutes or add a supliment. Your roots most likely either not aerated enough (sorry, I probably missed what your using aeration wise.) or damping off, or may have a pathogen. It could also be related to the deficiency. If your plant is difficient It could effect root growth.

Just my 2cents, but that would be a first guess.

Thanks for the input and for checking out my journal. I am following the House & Garden program and so I will not be adding anything outside of their line. You may be correct about the deficiency, considering my ppm readings are low, and as soon as I can I am going to mix up a fresh batch and try to figure out what I am doing wrong.
I am aerating with two bubble discs on the air pump that came with the kit. I have another pump and a stone and may add that, but I have a good amount of 'boiling' as is so I'm not convinced that is the issue.
Also, I am using RO water with a very low starting ppm, like 002, so while I could subtract it, it's not really going to change much.

 

[Speyedr]

Speyedr...your PPM numbers are fine for where you're at right now...I had to go back and do some PPM calcs to make sure. I'm currently in Week 1 Flower mix on the aggressive feed program, and I'm running 1050ppm this week.

Stinkfinger sent me an H&G feeding chart that does have ppm, and back-tracking from that leads me to believe I should be around 780ppm or so. I checked both of my meters and found that one of them is meant for water quality and has a range of 0 - 999. Not good for the entire grow, but should be OK for where I am now. It is reading around 560ppm.
The other meter is a Hanna GrowCheck. I removed the probes from the res since the ballast and/or my IceProbe is fucking with the readings. I calibrated and checked a sample and came in around 580 or so.
I'm going to try to mix up a batch tomorrow and see if I can find the hole in my process.

H&G advises a slightly higher PH range...up to 6.5...which is a bit higher than normal nutrient packages. I've found that running the PH around 5.8 is the sweet spot for the plants. I bring this up because there is some twisting of leaves in one of your pictures, twisting that looks to me like a high PH issue.

pH is around 6.0 right now and I am hesitant to mess with it, especially since confirming that my ppms are low. Once I get that worked out I may turn to pH, but it is still in range. I could understand some issues, like a little slower growth, etc. but not what I am seeing in the roots.

The area of primary concern for me is the complete lack of root development. Are you using Great White, as recommended by H&G? Algen Extract? These things are designed for root health...although the Algen Extract has benefits beyond that.

Great White was never recommended to me, though I did not directly communicate with H&G. My local shop also advised me, however incorrectly, that I could go with the base and some of the main stimulants and not use all. They may have been wrong, but seeing as I am on week 1 of flower Algen Extract is off the menu. I understand that different nutes can do different things, but I am seeing explosive root growth on other journals where folks are using run o' the mill stuff. I can't imagine that the issue is not related to:
A - my original Algae, pH and temp issues
and
B - my problem mixing the proper strength at the moment.
I'm going to try to just get the ppms right first and then see where we go.

I think what I'd like to see is a res change, followed by a lowering of the PH into the 5.5-5.8 range. Let's give that a try to see if we can stimulate you root system. You're growing pygmy plants on account of your underdeveloped root system...let's see if we can fix that.

BTW, the Drip clean is very important, and the lack of it allows salts to form and could possibly be contributing to your problems. I do know that the H&G line is designed to be used as a whole...when you start adding stuff to, or taking stuff away, it can react in wildly unpredictable ways.

Hope this helps and I'll keep an eye out on you.

I appreciate the time your taking, and I don't want to offend by picking and choosing from your advice for my approach. That said, the plants look good, and they are growing. Rockstar has hit the screen and I'll be able to start training pretty soon. They are definitely pygmys, but seeing as my space is limited this may be a blessing in disguise! I am also seeing pre-flowers, two little hairs. Femmed seeds so I am happy to see that. I'll try to get some pics during the res change tomorrow.

 

[CadillacMike]

Hey Speyedr< i totally understand about your hesitation to mess with your ph or ppm levels. That is kinda why i suggested the Hygrozyme. Its not a nutrient so it doesnt change your ppm or PH reading a bit. If you really want your roots to develop more, just like it says on the bottle " The Secret is Hygrozyme". lol. LIke all other stuff says on it i know. It really does the trick without messing anything up. I have used it with all 3 strains ive been growing. It saved my ass when res problems were affecting my roots. The only down side is that you shouldnt use it will organics at ALL!!! If so it will mess with stuff. If H&G is organic then disregard what i just said. lol!

Hope all is well bro!

 

[Speyedr]

Hey Speyedr< i totally understand about your hesitation to mess with your ph or ppm levels. That is kinda why i suggested the Hygrozyme. Its not a nutrient so it doesnt change your ppm or PH reading a bit. If you really want your roots to develop more, just like it says on the bottle " The Secret is Hygrozyme". lol. LIke all other stuff says on it i know. It really does the trick without messing anything up. I have used it with all 3 strains ive been growing. It saved my ass when res problems were affecting my roots. The only down side is that you shouldnt use it will organics at ALL!!! If so it will mess with stuff. If H&G is organic then disregard what i just said. lol!

Hope all is well bro!

Thanks Mike. Part of the H&G regimen is chemical and part is organic, but I do appreciate the input.

 

[Speyedr]

Just took another look at the H&G chart SF sent me and I see that they give ec/ppm numbers like:
2.0ec/1400ppm or 1.8ec/1260ppm. This would be an ec to ppm conversion factor of .7. My GrowCheck was set to a conversion factor of .5. Once I adjusted it I tested and got 780ppm, which is more in line with were I should be based on the normal schedule.
That said, I still think I'm light on the nutes so I am planning on doing a res change to the aggressive schedule for this week. I'll keep them on that for a few days and then bump up to week six flower. That would take them to:
3 days @ 965ppm
next week @ 1205ppm
These are base nute measurements and adding supplements would likely up those numbers.

I am hesitant to do anything major at this point to try to stimulate more root growth. The roots are growing, just not exploding as they should have, but they are healthy and white and the plants look good too aside from the fact that they are stunted. I also hesitate to buy anything additional to add since veg is over and they are in flower. For the next go-round I will add the missing pieces, but I think I can pull these ladies through and get something for my head in the process.

It's all learning right? And I have sure as shit learned a bunch from this ride and from all of you good folks. The best part is that the learning never stops.

 

[VapedOutJoe]

Sounds good Speyedr!

 

[bubble grower]

is there room in here for a bubble fan like myself??

SUBSCRIBED......... BUBBLES FOR ALL!!!

 

[FryingPanFlyer]

Just took another look at the H&G chart SF sent me and I see that they give ec/ppm numbers like:
2.0ec/1400ppm or 1.8ec/1260ppm. This would be an ec to ppm conversion factor of .7. My GrowCheck was set to a conversion factor of .5. Once I adjusted it I tested and got 780ppm, which is more in line with were I should be based on the normal schedule.
That said, I still think I'm light on the nutes so I am planning on doing a res change to the aggressive schedule for this week. I'll keep them on that for a few days and then bump up to week six flower. That would take them to:
3 days @ 965ppm
next week @ 1205ppm
These are base nute measurements and adding supplements would likely up those numbers.

I am hesitant to do anything major at this point to try to stimulate more root growth. The roots are growing, just not exploding as they should have, but they are healthy and white and the plants look good too aside from the fact that they are stunted. I also hesitate to buy anything additional to add since veg is over and they are in flower. For the next go-round I will add the missing pieces, but I think I can pull these ladies through and get something for my head in the process.

It's all learning right? And I have sure as shit learned a bunch from this ride and from all of you good folks. The best part is that the learning never stops.

I agree with you, I wouldn't change too much at this stage of the game. I never go over 900 ppm and my roots have no problems, I'm curious as to what happened with yours. Can you raise the water level in your res? That's pretty sanguine and may give you the same results.

Good luck man. Keep the faith!

 

[Speyedr]

Sounds good Speyedr!

Thanks for the vote of confidence Joe!

is there room in here for a bubble fan like myself??

SUBSCRIBED......... BUBBLES FOR ALL!!!

There's room for all here @ Speyedr's Trainwreck!!
Your plants look mighty nice bro. You are doing a real service there. Keep it up!

I agree with you, I wouldn't change too much at this stage of the game. I never go over 900 ppm and my roots have no problems, I'm curious as to what happened with yours. Can you raise the water level in your res? That's pretty sanguine and may give you the same results.

Good luck man. Keep the faith!

Thanks FF. Means a lot coming from an experienced Deep Water Culture like yourself.
I think the 'Root Cause' (GUFAW!!) of the problem was an initial Algae outbreak that set me back a few weeks. I modified my nute schedule based on where I thought the plants were when they recovered, so now I am trying to get them back to where they 'should be'.

I'll be posting new pics and an update shortly.

 

[Speyedr]

Weekend update:

I did a res change on Thursday night to about 900ppm. That is lower than I calculated but in the ballpark, however it is also with all nutes and supplements added. According to my calcs base nutes alone should have yielded 950+ ppm. At this point I am not sure if my meter is malfunctioning or if my nutes may be old..?
I validated my process and made sure that the volume of water was correct, as is the volume of nutes being added. I mixed part 'A' throughly and let it sit for a couple hours. Same with part 'B'. Next I adjusted pH to almost exactly 5.5 and then added supplements, again after letting it sit.
One thing I noticed was that the ppms dropped a bit after each pH modification (I was upping pH as it is always about 3.7 after adding 'A' & 'B'. I am using the Stealth Hydro pH up since I have it on hand.)
The way I see it, IF I am adding the right amount of nutes to the right amount of water in the right way and my ppms are coming up short, then I either have bad nutes or a bad meter, assuming the Nute Calculator is accurate. Since others are using the calculator and getting great results I have to assume it is correct.

My EC was about 1.265.

Anyway, the plants are still looking good. They are both growing though the Runt is greener. The Rockstar has reached the screen and I have begun training her and the Runt is not far behind. Also, I have what appear to be Fem pre-flowers. The roots are also healthy looking and growing, so again, I hesitate to make any big changes. pH has been a steady sub-6.0, temps are great. I had one day of smell but after starting up my Uvonair Junior I have not smelled anything but ozone, and then only when I open the space.

here are the pics...

Training the Rockstar:

This training shot has pre-flowers..

More pre-flowers, this time on the Runt...

The Runt is on her way...

Circled her top in this one to show how close she is to the screen...

Roots...

You can see the difference in color. Runt is Green Green and Rockstar is showing a little yellow.

I am planning another nute change for tomorrow to get up to the 2nd week of Flower, aggressive schedule as per plan. Based on the yellow color I think she can take it just fine.
After this next week I need to decide when to swap out the MH for the HPS. I'm either going to do it after week 2 or 3, depending on where they are next Friday. I want to get that screen somewhat full before the stretch is over and the HPS should help with that was well.

Thoughts, comments, burns, trolls, all welcome, all the time!