Bagseed Indoor 600W MH/HPs Airpot Sensi Tent

[SauronBlue]

Just up the MC 1/2 gram and see if it fixes the problem.

What size pot are you in? Can you feel a difference in your watered and dry plant. If after you water they are good then in a couple of days it’s droopy after the lights been on awhile, it sounds like you need to water more frequently or up pot.

Okay, so, since I have these really easy to transplant pots, that wrap open, so as not to disturb the root ball, I decide to take a look at what's going on down there. I peeled open the pot on P2 and the roots don't seem too grown in, to cause a problem, there's definitely room for them to grow higher in the pot. What I did notice is that while the soil was cool to the touch, which to me signifies that there is some moisture, it was basically the same moisture thoughout, and I would definitely believe if someone told me it's too dry, but it seems about time to water now, to me. According to my schedule, however, I'd be watering tomorrow, so maybe it's an issue, but enough to already be causing yellowing? I'm not experienced enough to tell. I guess I could open up P1, which isn't having issues, and compare...

 

[SauronBlue]

P1 looks about the same to me, in the root zone, so I'm leaning away from pot size being the issue, but P1 was slightly more moist, so that could be a factor. Still not what I would call damp, but more spongy, where P2 felt more solid/dirtlike in the root-zone. So, I'm guessing that I should water with the same feed to see if it was just the frequency of watering that was the issue, but I'm so tempted to throw a few drops of cal/mag on them.

 

[SauronBlue]

I'd try what Em suggested, and add in a little calmag. Watch your ratio on it though, you don't want too much nitrogen to where it whacks out your N->K ratio. For a bottled option, try the Gen Hydro one. It's 1-0-0, and won't disturb much. First try it at half your MC rate. So if you're at 5g/gal, try the calmag at 2.5ml/gal.

I have some actual cal/mag in a bottle, but it is a few years old. I have lots of old nutes and supplements, but I'm not sure how well this stuff holds up over time. Other than the MC, all I have new is ph perfect sensi grow/bloom. everything else is a few years old.

Looks like it wants more to me.

I don't understand. More water/nutes?



I think I said it above, but my plan for now is to water with the same feed, and see if it's just a matter of not feeding often enough. I've had it drilled into my head that changing too many variables at once may end up fixing the issue, but you'll have no idea what fixed it, so if you get the issue again, it will still be hard to deal with. That's why I haven't installed my new lighting. I'm just trying to wait a couple hours to see if I get any new info to change my plan before I jump too quickly...

 

[multiVortex]

BvB is saying up the MegaCrop dose. If your plants are 30+ days old, they should be able to digest 6g/gal of MC. MC is best measured in grams/gallon, and ignore PPM/EC for the most part.


If you're in soil, those 1.5gal pots aren't going to cut it. SOG or not. I think hydrohaulic is on to something, and you may have multiple issues compounding.

For a SOG, you want coco, IMO. That's how you keep the pots small and water a few times a day. Soil, not so much.


So what I'd look into would be first to put em in bigger pots. Watch closely on the wet/dry cycle, and follow Em's watering tutorial.

Second, get your g/gal of MC in order. 20-30 days old, 5g/gal. 30+ days old, 6g/gal. Watch your plants, and see if they want more. It's possible they might. If so, bump to 6.5 and see how that works.

 

[SauronBlue]

BvB is saying up the MegaCrop dose. If your plants are 30+ days old, they should be able to digest 6g/gal of MC. MC is best measured in grams/gallon, and ignore PPM/EC for the most part.


If you're in soil, those 1.5gal pots aren't going to cut it. SOG or not. I think hydrohaulic is on to something, and you may have multiple issues compounding.

For a SOG, you want coco, IMO. That's how you keep the pots small and water a few times a day. Soil, not so much.


So what I'd look into would be first to put em in bigger pots. Watch closely on the wet/dry cycle, and follow Em's watering tutorial.

Second, get your g/gal of MC in order. 20-30 days old, 5g/gal. 30+ days old, 6g/gal. Watch your plants, and see if they want more. It's possible they might. If so, bump to 6.5 and see how that works.

I appreciate the reply very much.

I mentioned that when I upped my ppm to 1000, they burned. That was 6g/gal.

Why would I ignore the ppm? That's basically 1/2 the info about my nute mix that I'd be ignoring (ph/ppm). I mean the g/gal are just a way to get to the ppm without adding a sprinkle, measuring again to check ppm, over and over until you get to the right concentration. What's wrong with me using ppm? This is contrary to what I've heard basically everywhere else, so I would need to understand why to adopt the idea.

I'm not sure if you saw the pics I posted, do those look like they're stressed due to pot size? I'm not saying they might not be more comfortable, but could that be causing the yellowing?

I'm not doing SOG, I only mentioned it to state that those plants went thru flower to harvest in pots 1/3 the size I'm in now. Is that simply because of the difference of media? I used mostly perlite on those.

 

[multiVortex]

I'm not saying completely forget about the ppm, I'm just saying with MC it isn't as important of a metric, so no need to sweat over 100ppm diff.

This is just about MC, not any other nutrient line. Anything you know about those, put it to the side. I couldn't tell you why, but MC is just a bit of a different beast.

FWIW, an approximation in PPM is about 195ppm per gram of MC.


Unhappy, root bound plants will certainly yellow like that. The roots get choked up and can't uptake the right nutrients.

Yes, it is the difference in media. For soil, you want at least a 10gallon pot for an average sized photo period plant. A 15gal pot would be better. (If doing a Living Organic Soil, 25gal+, even.)

However, for drain to waste, in soil, 10gal is ok, 15 is better.


Now that is for the average grower. Some people are very well experienced and can make due with a little less. I wouldn't recommend it, personally.


Now promix, or other soilless types of potting mix (like FoxFarms, Sunshine #4, etc) you can get by with smaller pots. 5gal at the smallest end, up to 10gal with photo periods.

I have a promix grow going right now with 5 different auto flowers. 4 of those are in 7gal fabric pots, and the other is in a 3gal. She's going to end up a tick cramped, but being an autoflower the 3gal with promix is just barely doable.


You can use 1.5gal pots with soil, but only in the beginning. You need to up pot them from there. They should be in 10gal pots now, or at least a 5gal. If they aren't happy, you can certainly see the issues you are seeing right now.

You can get a 5-pack of 10gal fabric pots from amazon for like $20, or your local grow shop will have them too if you prefer.

That's where to start, honestly. Get them into a happier home, and water/feed correctly.

 

[SauronBlue]

I'm not saying completely forget about the ppm, I'm just saying with MC it isn't as important of a metric, so no need to sweat over 100ppm diff.

This is just about MC, not any other nutrient line. Anything you know about those, put it to the side. I couldn't tell you why, but MC is just a bit of a different beast.

FWIW, an approximation in PPM is about 195ppm per gram of MC.


Unhappy, root bound plants will certainly yellow like that. The roots get choked up and can't uptake the right nutrients.

Yes, it is the difference in media. For soil, you want at least a 10gallon pot for an average sized photo period plant. A 15gal pot would be better. (If doing a Living Organic Soil, 25gal+, even.)

However, for drain to waste, in soil, 10gal is ok, 15 is better.


Now that is for the average grower. Some people are very well experienced and can make due with a little less. I wouldn't recommend it, personally.


Now promix, or other soilless types of potting mix (like FoxFarms, Sunshine #4, etc) you can get by with smaller pots. 5gal at the smallest end, up to 10gal with photo periods.

I have a promix grow going right now with 5 different auto flowers. 4 of those are in 7gal fabric pots, and the other is in a 3gal. She's going to end up a tick cramped, but being an autoflower the 3gal with promix is just barely doable.


You can use 1.5gal pots with soil, but only in the beginning. You need to up pot them from there. They should be in 10gal pots now, or at least a 5gal. If they aren't happy, you can certainly see the issues you are seeing right now.

You can get a 5-pack of 10gal fabric pots from amazon for like $20, or your local grow shop will have them too if you prefer.

That's where to start, honestly. Get them into a happier home, and water/feed correctly.

Wow, so soil is really not going to be my media of choice if an average plant needs TEN GALLONS of media to be comfortable. That's a huge footprint, and just a ton of dirt to be hauling around, disposing of, etc. I was planning on switching to hydro when I move, and now I'm not even sure how to move forward with my clones if that is the consensus opinion. I'd much rather use heavy-duty 12gal totes that I can buy for $7 locally to do DWC than fabric bags (I just don't like them) or very expensive airpots of those huge sizes. Not only would I get the enhanced growth, and quick effects from changes to the system (easier to diagnose issues), but it's also a lot easier to get water right out of the tap, then dump it right down the drain. Unless I could reuse my soil mix, I'd definitely cross off using 10-plus gallon containers for soil.

I can, however pop these in 5gal airpots, if that's what they need. I was thinking to use the 5's for my mother plants, that would be around longer. now I'll probably just take clones from whatever I'm growing, because I'm not sure if you can keep a mom in hydro.

 

[multiVortex]

I use fabric pots from time to time. I don't mind them.

You can reuse soil. In fact, that is the entire purpose behind a living organic soil (LOS) setup. You are right though, it's a LOT of dirt to haul around.

Hydro... it's also a LOT of water to haul around. And trust me when I say this, you don't want to fight with tap water and hydro in most cases. It just isn't worth it. I learned that one the hard way. Looking at what some people start with on their tap, mine didn't seem terrible. However, something in it was fighting to raise the pH, and it took a fkton of pH down to get it straight. I could have worked with it, but what I would have spent on pH down for one or two grows just paid for my RO setup. Plus my other grows are benefiting from it too. Win win, I think.

For mothers, 5gal or hydro is not the way to roll. Look around the site here for "bonzai mothers" and you'll be on the right track there with plenty of clones.

If you have clones now, put them in coco. You can use smaller pots (I'd do 3gal, but you could do 1.5gal or 2gal in some cases) but you'll have to feed up to a few times a day in flower.

There is a TON of resources on this very site to help get your sorted and on your way. They really are worth a read and doing your homework on.

 

[SauronBlue]

So, I decided to treat it as a water shortage, and get them some of the same nutes right away. I gave P2 1.5l of 858/6.25 water, and did some LST that was sorely needed. I can surely feel when they are full, but I'm not so sure about the empty weight. It's harder to tell with all the dirt and plant in there. Another thing I don't like about soil. Hydro is ALWAYS in water LOL, so one less variable.







P1 got 1.3l of the same water. I also topped the 2 clones, evening everything out. This plant should fill in the center much better than P2 did, just from how bushy it is. The bottom nodes of growth have grown up higher than the main canopy now. Overall, I'm really happy with this plant, after being disappointed at the initial slow growth. It's only about 2/3 the size of P2, but much healthier, deeper green (even than the good stuff of P2), and really bushy.








I dropped the 2 clones from P1 in the cloner. It seems the stuff still works, after all this time. I always take out what I'm going to use, rather than dip the plant into the main jar, but I feel like it was green long ago, not brown. Who knows? After cutting with a razor, at an angle, Immediately dip the exposed tip in the gel, then very lightly scrape the stem all around, up to about 1/2" from the tip. I let them sit about 10 min to let some of the chemicals get sucked up, then into the cloner.
I think I'm going to put the new light in this weekend, because it should be easier to control the tent with the ducts simply venting air to the tent, instead of the light tube, And condensation should be much less of an issue. I was seeing drips on the plants if I didn't get in there often enough, which constantly changed based on how big of a difference between in/out air temps.




Thanks to all who for trying to help me thru this crisis lol. I'd be glad if you all stick around, to see how it worked out!

 

[Hydroholic]

I use 5 gallon buckets in hydro. I go through 30 gallons of water a week or more plus nutrients.
My plants in soil react in a few hours or a little more to what I’ve done. If I water in the morning by afternoon my plants have told me what’s wrong. I also go by ppm and not mg-gl on the MC. 6gm is around 1300 with my tap water. I would bump up my MC by .5 gm-gl until 6gm then take it nice and slow after you go to a bigger pot. You can go to 5 or 7 gallon pots also if you don’t want to go 10 gallons or above. Your plants look nice and green up top.

 

[SauronBlue]

I use fabric pots from time to time. I don't mind them.

You can reuse soil. In fact, that is the entire purpose behind a living organic soil (LOS) setup. You are right though, it's a LOT of dirt to haul around.

Hydro... it's also a LOT of water to haul around. And trust me when I say this, you don't want to fight with tap water and hydro in most cases. It just isn't worth it. I learned that one the hard way. Looking at what some people start with on their tap, mine didn't seem terrible. However, something in it was fighting to raise the pH, and it took a fkton of pH down to get it straight. I could have worked with it, but what I would have spent on pH down for one or two grows just paid for my RO setup. Plus my other grows are benefiting from it too. Win win, I think.

For mothers, 5gal or hydro is not the way to roll. Look around the site here for "bonzai mothers" and you'll be on the right track there with plenty of clones.

If you have clones now, put them in coco. You can use smaller pots (I'd do 3gal, but you could do 1.5gal or 2gal in some cases) but you'll have to feed up to a few times a day in flower.

There is a TON of resources on this very site to help get your sorted and on your way. They really are worth a read and doing your homework on.

I do have an "RO Buddy" to filter my water, but I've only been using the carbon filter, which really doesn't drop my ppm at all from the tap, so I don't know what, if any benefit I'm getting, but it seems to be doing okay. I haven't had any issues until this yellow leaf nonsense on one plant. And while water can be heavy, it's already in your house, on the same floor, and you've got pumps to help move it exactly where you need it. No climbing stairs or buying lots of it to bring home. All those bags of soil would surely draw eyes from my neighbors, but they have no idea how much water comes out of my tap.

As far as resources on the site; My first post after leaving the site for years was about refreshing the info in the "how to grow section". Searching thru tons of threads for the info you want is tough and time consuming. I'd love to spark up an effort to revitalize these decade old sticky's with new info. There has been a lot of progress since 2007, when a lot of the sticky's were composed. I do plenty of digging, and not just on this site, but like 5-6 sites, but this is the only place I post a journal. You also find a lot of contradictory info, depending on where you look, but having a thread about a certain topic usually brings all with an opinion to plead their case, so you get a better idea of WHY one does this, while the other does that, so it's much easier to tell which way might work better for you.

Trust me, I'm not being lazy about this. If I come on and ask a question, it's because I've already looked for an answer, but am still confused. Like when initially asking for help on this issue, I already had a diagnosis, I just wanted confirmation before I screwed it up worse, as many symptom are so similar for different causes.
I've "successfully" taken 6-8 grows to harvest, but I was working 80hrs a week, and my plants were suffering A LOT, and producing junk quality weed. By the end, I was just letting them get as angry as they wanted, I was just going thru the motions to get the buds I was just gonna sell for cheap because I wasn't gonna bother smoking it LOL. I'm trying my best to do things right this time, but even with full-time attention, I expect to hit a snag here and there.


Edit: I could not only RO filter my water, but DI filter it also. I have all the equipment, but I only use the sediment and carbon filters in the system right now.
PS. please don't take my back and forth as arguing. It's just how I learn, I need to fully understand why, not just what to do. I want everyone to know that I really appreciate all feedback, and anyone taking the time out of their day to try to help me, so please don't take my questioning as a challenge or disbelief <3

 

[SauronBlue]

I use 5 gallon buckets in hydro. I go through 30 gallons of water a week or more plus nutrients.
My plants in soil react in a few hours or a little more to what I’ve done. If I water in the morning by afternoon my plants have told me what’s wrong. I also go by ppm and not mg-gl on the MC. 6gm is around 1300 with my tap water. I would bump up my MC by .5 gm-gl until 6gm then take it nice and slow after you go to a bigger pot. You can go to 5 or 7 gallon pots also if you don’t want to go 10 gallons or above. Your plants look nice and green up top.

I've been planning to go hydro, so, since I've got you here, I figure I'll ask a few questions. I read that the probes for those meters get all crusty from sitting in the res, and need to be soaked in some kind of solution to extend the life. Do you have this issue? I was thinking to use 4, 12gal totes for the plants, and a 27gal for the res, with the plants lifted enough to put the tops of the totes at the same level, so water is not trying to overflow the plants if the pumps fail. I'm planning to get a water cooler (like on an office) to use as a chiller, by coiling lots of tubing in the refrigerating space of the cooler, and pumping the water from the res thru this tubing. I may use with a timer on the cooler, if it gets too cold. I couldn't find any good, cheap insulation methods that I'd want in my space (I hate fiberglass), so it seems much easier to cool it, than to keep it cool. The best insulation solution I found was to buy 2 totes, put one inside the other, and fill with insulating foam. This was the best/cheapest I could come up with, but only one tote set up like this would cost more than an old cooler. I do plan to use the RO, and possibly DI parts of my filter system once I go hydro.

What do you think?

 

[West Hippie]

I’m running dwc and flood &drain . F&D has a 20 gallon reservoir.
Ink bird could control your idea with the cooler .
I grew a mother plant in dwc got out of hand ! Put her on 12/12 since Sunday water and nutrients change I’ve used 426 ppm Hanna scale. In hydro you can see your nutrients being devoured!
I’m trying to leave the calmag alone , for me it’s a test to what the manufacturer said to do . I’ve had ph problems with the dwc okay now i know how I need to deal with it . I use ro water , my six grams is at 1000 ppm .
Very light build up with MC my blue lab cleans with easy with asoft toothbrush .

 

[multiVortex]

I've been planning to go hydro, so, since I've got you here, I figure I'll ask a few questions. I read that the probes for those meters get all crusty from sitting in the res, and need to be soaked in some kind of solution to extend the life. Do you have this issue? I was thinking to use 4, 12gal totes for the plants, and a 27gal for the res, with the plants lifted enough to put the tops of the totes at the same level, so water is not trying to overflow the plants if the pumps fail.

I just tried doing this, and it was on the level of bad idea jeans. I planned it out extensively, had it all hooked up save the pump, and had to rip it all out and trash it.

Before deciding to construct my own I had been looking at a system package from PA Hydroponic. Even before getting the part to build my first attempt, my gut said get the package and be done with it. It was a little more than I thought I wanted to spend, and I was trying to save a couple bucks by using totes and cheaping out.

I learned the hard way, and knew what I was doing.

How?

I had it laid out so the return lines came into a central return line, with shutoff valves, and was off by about 4" per side. This threw off my plumbing design. This is where I should have stopped and reworked it. Instead, I thought I had a bright idea to just move the return from the side and joining in the middle, to the back side and turning into the middle.

Queue up the price is right fail horn.

This would have been a disaster. First, cleaning with any resemblence of a good job would have been almost impossible. Second, roots. Roots, doing what they do, would have had a field day blocking that turn up. There were some other issues from that too, including trying to use uniseals instead of bucking up and using a proper bulkhead.

The end result of all of that is it all ended up in the trash. This was after probably 7 or 8 runs to the parts store for pipe, fittings, and anything else I thought I could throw at it to try and salvage it. All down the drain, wasted.

What happened? I ended up with the setup I should have went with in the first place.

Unless you're MacGyver, or the king of DIY, I would strongly encourage looking at a setup like that. If you're in a tent, get the 13gal version. It may seem like a lot up front, but all things considered it really is a very fair price for the whole setup.

I'm not saying the other can't be done, but it's very, very easy to mess it up; even when you know what you're doing.

 

[SauronBlue]

I’m running dwc and flood &drain . F&D has a 20 gallon reservoir.
Ink bird could control your idea with the cooler .
I grew a mother plant in dwc got out of hand ! Put her on 12/12 since Sunday water and nutrients change I’ve used 426 ppm Hanna scale. In hydro you can see your nutrients being devoured!
I’m trying to leave the calmag alone , for me it’s a test to what the manufacturer said to do . I’ve had ph problems with the dwc okay now i know how I need to deal with it . I use ro water , my six grams is at 1000 ppm .
Very light build up with MC my blue lab cleans with easy with asoft toothbrush .

I just tried doing this, and it was on the level of bad idea jeans. I planned it out extensively, had it all hooked up save the pump, and had to rip it all out and trash it.

Before deciding to construct my own I had been looking at a system package from PA Hydroponic. Even before getting the part to build my first attempt, my gut said get the package and be done with it. It was a little more than I thought I wanted to spend, and I was trying to save a couple bucks by using totes and cheaping out.

I learned the hard way, and knew what I was doing.

How?

I had it laid out so the return lines came into a central return line, with shutoff valves, and was off by about 4" per side. This threw off my plumbing design. This is where I should have stopped and reworked it. Instead, I thought I had a bright idea to just move the return from the side and joining in the middle, to the back side and turning into the middle.

Queue up the price is right fail horn.

This would have been a disaster. First, cleaning with any resemblence of a good job would have been almost impossible. Second, roots. Roots, doing what they do, would have had a field day blocking that turn up. There were some other issues from that too, including trying to use uniseals instead of bucking up and using a proper bulkhead.

The end result of all of that is it all ended up in the trash. This was after probably 7 or 8 runs to the parts store for pipe, fittings, and anything else I thought I could throw at it to try and salvage it. All down the drain, wasted.

What happened? I ended up with the setup I should have went with in the first place.

Unless you're MacGyver, or the king of DIY, I would strongly encourage looking at a setup like that. If you're in a tent, get the 13gal version. It may seem like a lot up front, but all things considered it really is a very fair price for the whole setup.

I'm not saying the other can't be done, but it's very, very easy to mess it up; even when you know what you're doing.

Thanks for all the hydro advice, guys! A lot to consider. I did plan on doing a bubble bucket- type DWC first, before going full RDWC, so there's still time to decide how to set that up. The pre-built setups are so much $, but I get what you're saying about wasting money on unsuccessful DIY attempts, I've been there LOL.
I have also been considering using rockwool blocks with an ebb & flow. There's gotta be a reason why so many commercial grows use that setup. Something about those huge root-balls draws me to DWC, but I'll have to take a good look at EnF before I make any big changes.

 

[SauronBlue]

P2
P1



I checked on the tent just now, and it was a bit cold, 60°. I'm going to have to automate my temps, somehow, because this is a pain, and keeps me chained to the grow. I'm constantly opening/closing windows, changing fan speeds, changing how much air is exchanged with the rest of the house, etc. Anyways, even with everything leaned over from LST, I could clearly see the leaves more firm and tall, as opposed to drooping. I'm sure that under-watering was a factor, even if not the only factor causing the stress. I'll have to water more often, and see if that gets things back on track alone, or if there are other factors to adjust. Thanks again for all the input that helped me decide how to proceed!

 

[SauronBlue]

P2
P1



Just a quick update on the look of the plants, because I can see that it's hard to tell how the leaves are falling when I'm taking pics from on top. These shots at level show a better view of how the leaves are standing tall, not drooping, on the day after watering. I'm hoping the yellowing was just because there was no water in the soil to give the minerals needed, and more frequent feedings solve that.

I've moved the humidifier out of the tent. Since I've got that area closed off from the rest of the house, it's able to raise the humidity enough to affect the tent, and I'm able to keep it in the 50's so far, which is good for me, and may keep climbing. I wouldn't mind 60. I'm planning to move the veg area to a closet, and keep the tent as the flower space. I'll put my quantum board in there, and use T5's for now in the closet, get an idea of the heat management issues. I actually got 2 quantum boards, so I may put one in there on the dimmer setting to veg with less heat than the MH would generate, but that has a dimmer also, so we'll see...

 

[Silverfox125]

The yellowing could be early nitrogen deficiency. Looking good otherwise. Nice job.

 

[SauronBlue]

P1
P2




I went ahead and watered tonight, because I wont get a chance in the morning, and I'm not sure what time I'll be home. The ph on the feed had crept up to 6.58, so I decided to add a touch of nutes, since I had to ph again. Got the ppm up to 880 and ph to 6.30, and gave each plant 1l. The humidity has been steadier since cutting off that area and putting the humidifier outside the tent, so that's great. I also added a half gallon of water to the cloner, as it was getting low.

 

[SauronBlue]

So, I think it would make better sense for using up the tent if I trained them to be long, and take up one half of the tent each, but I need to move to a new place before harvest, so I need some way to transport them. It's cold outside around here, I don't want people to see me moving big pot plants in, and light will screw up the plants, so it's a pretty complicated undertaking. I'm thinking to use 2'x2'x3' wardrobe moving boxes to transport them, so that's why I want to keep them square. I might cut a hole in some styrofoam sheets to hold the plants in the center of the box. This is definitely going to be harder with 5 gal of soil, compared to 1.5, but what can I do? I'll re-pot them on Monday, before watering, and switch to flower a day or 2 later.