Building A Better Soil: Demonstrations & Discussions Of Organic Soil Recipes

[TheFertilizer]

Landrace sativas are light feeders, they grow best in High Brix soil!

You think they would do all right in this mix if I cut it a little so it wasn't so rich?

High Brix is kind of a mystery to me because one the one hand I know it has something to do with sugar levels and all that, but on the other hand it seems like there are "High Brix" soil recipes and stuff. Of course I know of the famous Doc Bud's.

I guess another way to ask is what makes this soil recipe not High Brix? Just the richness? It seems like High Brix puts more of an emphasis on magnesium and foliar feeding too?

Van Stank,

Yeah the other reason is that I just don't seem to be getting yields like I should using Happy Frog, plus a bunch of purple stems all the time with it. I'm not really sure what's going on, if there's a quality control issue with the source/distributor of where I buy mine, but I am pretty sick of being blamed for pH lockouts and nutrient deficiencies when all I can really do is put the stuff from the bottle into the soil and cross my fingers it works. I'd like the plant to just have all it needs right in the soil.

 

[Van Stank]

You think they would do all right in this mix if I cut it a little so it wasn't so rich?

High Brix is kind of a mystery to me because one the one hand I know it has something to do with sugar levels and all that, but on the other hand it seems like there are "High Brix" soil recipes and stuff. Of course I know of the famous Doc Bud's.

I guess another way to ask is what makes this soil recipe not High Brix? Just the richness? It seems like High Brix puts more of an emphasis on magnesium and foliar feeding too?

Van Stank,

Yeah the other reason is that I just don't seem to be getting yields like I should using Happy Frog, plus a bunch of purple stems all the time with it. I'm not really sure what's going on, if there's a quality control issue with the source/distributor of where I buy mine, but I am pretty sick of being blamed for pH lockouts and nutrient deficiencies when all I can really do is put the stuff from the bottle into the soil and cross my fingers it works. I'd like the plant to just have all it needs right in the soil.

I don't think you need to cut it brother. If I was you, I would try the technique I described with it. That rich soil on the bottom and then some sort of mild soil like Roots Organic, Bush Doctor CocoLoco, or Fox Farms Ocean Forrest in the top half. Or better yet, if you are the type to experiment....try one plant with your soil as is, one with a layered approach like I described and if you wanted to do a third try cutting the soil a little bit and then compare which way gives you the best results. Really that is what things boil down to brother....experimenting and finding what works best for you. And I would try leaving the bottled nutes on the shelf so you know exactly what your soil has or doesn't have.

 

[TheFertilizer]

I don't think you need to cut it brother. If I was you, I would try the technique I described with it. That rich soil on the bottom and then some sort of mild soil like Roots Organic, Bush Doctor CocoLoco, or Fox Farms Ocean Forrest in the top half. Or better yet, if you are the type to experiment....try one plant with your soil as is, one with a layered approach like I described and if you wanted to do a third try cutting the soil a little bit and then compare which way gives you the best results. Really that is what things boil down to brother....experimenting and finding what works best for you. And I would try leaving the bottled nutes on the shelf so you know exactly what your soil has or doesn't have.

Do you think having it transplanted from 1 gallon pot with a mild soil into 5 gallon pots with this soil would be kind of the layering approach too or do you mean smaller layers? That's still like a 4:1 ratio so I don't know if that would work the same way you mean.


Also, umm, should my soil be literally cooking? Because my house stunk like brussel sprouts this morning, I opened up the tote it's in and it was very hot. I stuck a thermometer in there and it says it's 115 F

 

[Van Stank]

Yes it will literally cook. I have seen soil get much warmer than 115. Its not uncommon for compost or soil to get up to 130-140 degrees. There is a farmer in Wisconsin thats grows in a green house in the winter up there and he heats his whole green house with compost piles 'cooking'. And soil that hasn't completely cooked will stink pretty good.

They layering I am speaking about really is only a 50:50 layering. Put your cooked soil down in the bottom of the pot and then your plant and a lighter less nutrient rich medium like CocoLoco or Roots Organic or fox farms Oceans Forrest in the top half. Again, this will allow your plants to only feed when they want to (the lower part of the container) and they roots will slowly work their way into the 'hot' soil, while still being able to drink and mild feed on the top half the rest of the time.

 

[Radogast]

Yes it will literally cook. I have seen soil get much warmer than 115. Its not uncommon for compost or soil to get up to 130-140 degrees. There is a farmer in Wisconsin thats grows in a green house in the winter up there and he heats his whole green house with compost piles 'cooking'. And soil that hasn't completely cooked will stink pretty good.

They layering I am speaking about really is only a 50:50 layering. Put your cooked soil down in the bottom of the pot and then your plant and a lighter less nutrient rich medium like CocoLoco or Roots Organic or fox farms Oceans Forrest in the top half. Again, this will allow your plants to only feed when they want to (the lower part of the container) and they roots will slowly work their way into the 'hot' soil, while still being able to drink and mild feed on the top half the rest of the time.

This assumes you don't let your pots dry out. Most of the way through veg, the top half of my soil is dry while the water level gradualy falls to the bottom

 

[bobrown14]

I believe I have some pretty good soil mixed up and ready to go. Clackamas Coots base with few minor tweaks. (Azomite, local clay, diotomecious earth, biochar) I have been reading a lot of things about flushing, or salt buildup, or related comments. Most of these involve soil or soiless mediums and the use of "nutes".

Now, with this beautiful soil ecosystem I think I have created or will when I add the plant, I am curious about these things. Will I have to worry about flushing? Will I still have salt buildup or is that just a bottled nutrient issue? When I feed with compost teas, should I water until it runs out into the pan or give it enough to wet the pot?

Also, while I got ya on the line (that is becoming an age indicating statement), how much of this soil do I pack in a 5g smartpot? How dense should it be? Do I do the same if I am planting direct into 1 gal smartpots?

Just a few things I have been wondering lol

With the Coots mix and that is the basic recipe I use and have been using for years. We worked with Coots on the recipe for a few years tweaking it to what it is today.

No need to worry about compaction or flushing. DO NOT FLUSH an organic soil mix. Fill your container and start off with either watering your soil prior to adding to pot or water in after potting and transplanting with an ACT.

Aerated compost tea - what that does is get the micro-organism party started in the soil and they along with the plant will take care of the rest.

ACT recipe = 1 cup worm castings + 3-5 gallons filtered water (no need to add in any other ingredients).

For planting in 1g or 5g smarties... I use #2 nursery pots for seedlings then up pot to final 7gal containers after 4 to 6 weeks in VEG, up pot a week before going into flower timing. Bigger pots = bigger plants.

Water until run out ... cannabis uses a lot more water than folks realize. I have 4 plants going now and they just finished off 70 gallons in 28 days while I was away on vacation. So each plant drank a little over 1/2 gallon EVERY DAY. That's been pretty much average for me for several years .. it doesn't change much.

For the dude that put Epsom Salt in the organic soil mix. Conrad is correct on the Ca:Mg ratio... I like to have it at 7:1 or even higher. So I don't use Epsom Salts... no need really, if you have Kelp meal and worm castings in your mix you have enough Mg to last ... not even considering whats in the compost... which will also have Mg in it as well.

Overdoing Mg will cause many many problems, first off will likely be leaf necrosis followed shortly there after by insect infestation.


I run landrace Sativas ... they really love the Coots mix. Plants gone wild ....

Layering... meh.. never had good results doing that. Best to have a proper balanced soil mix to start, the rest will follow.

To get a soil test - if you are in the USA, look up your local "county extension service". Our government has been so kind with our tax dollars and provides a subsidized AG extension service to farmers and gardeners.
For me its $9 to get a soil test, they send you results with recommendations to amend if needed.

For me, soil testing is extremely important. I don't plant in untested soil for container gardening. Without a soil test, basically going blind, if issues pop up, there's no way to trouble shoot.

Once your soil is dialed in, there won't be anything to worry about other than watering FTW.

 

[kelticBlue]

. . .

Once your soil is dialed in, there won't be anything to worry about other than watering FTW.

Good to see ya back

 

[TheFertilizer]

With the Coots mix and that is the basic recipe I use and have been using for years. We worked with Coots on the recipe for a few years tweaking it to what it is today.

No need to worry about compaction or flushing. DO NOT FLUSH an organic soil mix. Fill your container and start off with either watering your soil prior to adding to pot or water in after potting and transplanting with an ACT.

Aerated compost tea - what that does is get the micro-organism party started in the soil and they along with the plant will take care of the rest.

ACT recipe = 1 cup worm castings + 3-5 gallons filtered water (no need to add in any other ingredients).

For planting in 1g or 5g smarties... I use #2 nursery pots for seedlings then up pot to final 7gal containers after 4 to 6 weeks in VEG, up pot a week before going into flower timing. Bigger pots = bigger plants.

Water until run out ... cannabis uses a lot more water than folks realize. I have 4 plants going now and they just finished off 70 gallons in 28 days while I was away on vacation. So each plant drank a little over 1/2 gallon EVERY DAY. That's been pretty much average for me for several years .. it doesn't change much.

For the dude that put Epsom Salt in the organic soil mix. Conrad is correct on the Ca:Mg ratio... I like to have it at 7:1 or even higher. So I don't use Epsom Salts... no need really, if you have Kelp meal and worm castings in your mix you have enough Mg to last ... not even considering whats in the compost... which will also have Mg in it as well.

Overdoing Mg will cause many many problems, first off will likely be leaf necrosis followed shortly there after by insect infestation.


I run landrace Sativas ... they really love the Coots mix. Plants gone wild ....

Layering... meh.. never had good results doing that. Best to have a proper balanced soil mix to start, the rest will follow.

To get a soil test - if you are in the USA, look up your local "county extension service". Our government has been so kind with our tax dollars and provides a subsidized AG extension service to farmers and gardeners.
For me its $9 to get a soil test, they send you results with recommendations to amend if needed.

For me, soil testing is extremely important. I don't plant in untested soil for container gardening. Without a soil test, basically going blind, if issues pop up, there's no way to trouble shoot.

Once your soil is dialed in, there won't be anything to worry about other than watering FTW.

Unfortunately it doesn't seem like my county offers such services. There's a commercial outfit that does it, but given they don't list pricing on the website I'm expecting it costs and arm and a leg.

Still thanks to all that neem seed meal and not knowing how much lime is in the mix I should probably get it tested before planting, but at this rate my plants are going to need to be up potted right when it's done cooking, let alone after its tested, and fixing what might be wrong.

:/

So basically I'm gonna end up having to buy bagged soil anyway, and this was pretty much a waste of time and money. Lame.

Edit:

Maybe I can go get my mix without the amendments tested and have enough time to adjust the pH with lime? It's just Sunshine Mix 4, Perlite and EWC and the plants I transplanted into it seem to be ok despite heat stress, but all my meters are telling me it's a hair above 7 pH so I think I need to add lime.

At least I can get this tested asap since it doesn't have to cook and then have the time it will take my plants to outgrow the pot to let the lime I need stabilize? It's not exactly sterile with all the EWC I guess.

 

[bobrown14]

Unfortunately it doesn't seem like my county offers such services. There's a commercial outfit that does it, but given they don't list pricing on the website I'm expecting it costs and arm and a leg.

Still thanks to all that neem seed meal and not knowing how much lime is in the mix I should probably get it tested before planting, but at this rate my plants are going to need to be up potted right when it's done cooking, let alone after its tested, and fixing what might be wrong.

:/

So basically I'm gonna end up having to buy bagged soil anyway, and this was pretty much a waste of time and money. Lame.

Edit:

Maybe I can go get my mix without the amendments tested and have enough time to adjust the pH with lime? It's just Sunshine Mix 4, Perlite and EWC and the plants I transplanted into it seem to be ok despite heat stress, but all my meters are telling me it's a hair above 7 pH so I think I need to add lime.

At least I can get this tested asap since it doesn't have to cook and then have the time it will take my plants to outgrow the pot to let the lime I need stabilize? It's not exactly sterile with all the EWC I guess.

Many many places offer soil testing for farmers, its not expensive and it's taking place almost everywhere otherwise there would be mass starvation... wait there probably is.

That said... plant your plants and grow em out. Chances are you will be fine and its a learning experience and you will learn much. It won't be a waste of time.

Dialing in the soil is simply that.. you can grow in average soil... or we can tweak a recipe and just get better each time as we learn more about our plants and how they work with the soil mix you are using.

What usually happens with bagged soil is it runs out of steam say 3rd week into flower or there abouts. We can offer some advice on amendments to add in at flip. What I do is amend the final container soil when I up pot from my #2 to the final container.

I run no-til so my soil gets used over and over again without starting over. It only goes so many rounds without the need to start over. While the rounds are going, I'm composting so that when it's time to do another mix, I have my home made compost to add to the mix. Your own compost is going to be better than most anything you can purchase other than say worm castings... mix the 2 together and you really have something that will work.

Hop that helps.

 

[Van Stank]

Many many places offer soil testing for farmers, its not expensive and it's taking place almost everywhere otherwise there would be mass starvation... wait there probably is.

That said... plant your plants and grow em out. Chances are you will be fine and its a learning experience and you will learn much. It won't be a waste of time.

Dialing in the soil is simply that.. you can grow in average soil... or we can tweak a recipe and just get better each time as we learn more about our plants and how they work with the soil mix you are using.

What usually happens with bagged soil is it runs out of steam say 3rd week into flower or there abouts. We can offer some advice on amendments to add in at flip. What I do is amend the final container soil when I up pot from my #2 to the final container.

I run no-til so my soil gets used over and over again without starting over. It only goes so many rounds without the need to start over. While the rounds are going, I'm composting so that when it's time to do another mix, I have my home made compost to add to the mix. Your own compost is going to be better than most anything you can purchase other than say worm castings... mix the 2 together and you really have something that will work.

Hop that helps.

So let me see if I understand this correctly Bob. When you finish a grow, you save your soil.....got that. Do you do anything to it after you have used it on the previous grow or do you just end up regrowing in it without adding anything. If that is the case, how many runs do you figure you get out of it before you either add amendments back into it.....or ditch it in favor of the new stuff? And if you do add something to it, do you add anything other than EWC and compost like you described?

 

[Conradino23]

I do 3 runs without adding anything, but it really depends on how much your plants are pulling out of medium. With heavy yielders it's sometimes necessary to recharge your soil after 2-3 runs.

 

[Van Stank]

Interesting.....what are your thoughts on adding the used soil back in with the cooking or even ready batches of soil. To be clearer.....say I have 60 gallons of soil mixed up to prep for the next round of growing. Then I finish the grow and shake the root ball out of the used soil, and I mix the once used soil back in with the remaining soil of the 60 gallons minus what I used for the new grow. Or do you think it would be better to have a separate container and keep the used soil separate from the new soil?

 

[bobrown14]

So let me see if I understand this correctly Bob. When you finish a grow, you save your soil.....got that. Do you do anything to it after you have used it on the previous grow or do you just end up regrowing in it without adding anything. If that is the case, how many runs do you figure you get out of it before you either add amendments back into it.....or ditch it in favor of the new stuff? And if you do add something to it, do you add anything other than EWC and compost like you described?

Yes I run no-til so that's re-using the soil over and over then say after 5-7 flower runs I recycle it into a container and mix in more amendments (I have a recipe for that) and add compost and EWC. For the first 3-5 rounds tho, I don't need anything added.

I cut a hole where the old root ball was the same size as the #2 nursery pot and put the VEG plant in the hole with mykos. I sometimes top dress some amendments but not always... I tend to top dress more as the soil in the pot gets older. Basically the N gets used up over time so adding in compost/EWC will boost the N deficiency along with some extra amendments I have already mixed up in a bucket. A few cups of amendments and good to go another few rounds.

I just went into the woods today and gathered about 10 gallons of worm castings. Took me about 20 minutes. Good time of year to find castings, all the leaves are gone and the green leaves haven't started falling yet.

Growing organically is a leap of faith. Once that leap is made, and the results start to amaze the farmer = converted. Many folks are hard pressed to let the plants go and do their thing. I am lazy and prefer to not worry about it and all I do is IPM to control mites and molds (all organic).

This round I'm busy tho... trying to figure out how to fit 7.5 ft tall plants in a 6.5 ft light canopy! This was the 5th round in these no-til pots and the plants did a 3X stretch in 29 days... I was away out of the country.

So now I gotta get busy and rope these cowgirls up. Its a nice challenge. So far not successful. My better half needs to get involved. I need a 2nd set of hands to move monsters around.... not ideal.

My amendment recipe is:

1/2 cups Karanja cake meal & Neem cake meal (helps with bugs)
1/2 cups Alfalfa meal (N source)
1/2 cups Crab Shell Meal or powdered oyster shell (Ca and chitin)
1 cups ground malted barley
1 cups Kelp meal
1/2 cups dried nettle/yarrow/borage/horsetail or use freshly picked if they grow wild near you. We have all of these locally or in our gardens.
1-2 tbsp. mycorrhizae / Mykes

I mix up a bucket full of this ^^^ and put a lid on it and keep it handy when needed.

------------------------------------------------------

You can mix old with the new and add some amendments like EWC + Kelp meal + some of the amendment mix.

What I do is:
keep a large container of old soil
have a large container of new mix soil that has had a soil test

For each new cannabis start we use the old mix into a fresh #2 nursery pot (2gal). Starts don't need a lot of nutrients so older soil is perfect for seedlings.

For clones I fill the #2 nursery pot with new fresh soil.

Each final container

For each up-pot to final containers - I take out 2gal of the old soil and put that into the old soil mix container and put the plant from the #2 pot into the hole with some extra mycos, water and into flower they go.

In late winter we use up all the old soil for veggie and flower starts for outdoors .... then mix up another new batch of soil.

Nothing gets wasted and everything gets recycled back into the gardens. I don't compost the old soil, we add it into the outdoor gardens with all the new plants... we grow a lot of plants outdoors so it gets used up..mix a new batch of soil in early spring..

around and around goes... very similar to biodynamic gardening.

Hope that made sense....

 

[Van Stank]

Thanks for that breakdown Bob. Makes perfect sense. Being new to the soil grows for cannabis, I wasn't sure how nutrient rich the once used soil would be. What I did this last go around was.....I took the root ball out of the used soil and salvaged as much of the used soil as I could. Then I unfolded my big ass tarp and spread out approximately 45 gallons of my homemade soil. From there I just spread the salvaged once used soil over the area of the other soil and mixed it all together for 10-15 minutes (turning everything over several times). After that, I gave it light mist just to dampen it up a tad and loaded it all back in the 20 gallon trash can to set until this run is done.

Again, thanks for taking the time to break down what it is that you do Bob, I do appreciate all the information.

 

[bobrown14]

Thanks for that breakdown Bob. Makes perfect sense. Being new to the soil grows for cannabis, I wasn't sure how nutrient rich the once used soil would be. What I did this last go around was.....I took the root ball out of the used soil and salvaged as much of the used soil as I could. Then I unfolded my big ass tarp and spread out approximately 45 gallons of my homemade soil. From there I just spread the salvaged once used soil over the area of the other soil and mixed it all together for 10-15 minutes (turning everything over several times). After that, I gave it light mist just to dampen it up a tad and loaded it all back in the 20 gallon trash can to set until this run is done.

Again, thanks for taking the time to break down what it is that you do Bob, I do appreciate all the information.

That will work fine. Keep the lid on the soil container so it stays moist.

I even throw some Bokashi on top in the container to get the bacteria party started. I just got done mixing the Bokashi into my current fresh batch of soil.

 

[TheFertilizer]

Yes I run no-til so that's re-using the soil over and over then say after 5-7 flower runs I recycle it into a container and mix in more amendments (I have a recipe for that) and add compost and EWC. For the first 3-5 rounds tho, I don't need anything added.

I cut a hole where the old root ball was the same size as the #2 nursery pot and put the VEG plant in the hole with mykos. I sometimes top dress some amendments but not always... I tend to top dress more as the soil in the pot gets older. Basically the N gets used up over time so adding in compost/EWC will boost the N deficiency along with some extra amendments I have already mixed up in a bucket. A few cups of amendments and good to go another few rounds.

I just went into the woods today and gathered about 10 gallons of worm castings. Took me about 20 minutes. Good time of year to find castings, all the leaves are gone and the green leaves haven't started falling yet.

Growing organically is a leap of faith. Once that leap is made, and the results start to amaze the farmer = converted. Many folks are hard pressed to let the plants go and do their thing. I am lazy and prefer to not worry about it and all I do is IPM to control mites and molds (all organic).

This round I'm busy tho... trying to figure out how to fit 7.5 ft tall plants in a 6.5 ft light canopy! This was the 5th round in these no-til pots and the plants did a 3X stretch in 29 days... I was away out of the country.

So now I gotta get busy and rope these cowgirls up. Its a nice challenge. So far not successful. My better half needs to get involved. I need a 2nd set of hands to move monsters around.... not ideal.

My amendment recipe is:

1/2 cups Karanja cake meal & Neem cake meal (helps with bugs)
1/2 cups Alfalfa meal (N source)
1/2 cups Crab Shell Meal or powdered oyster shell (Ca and chitin)
1 cups ground malted barley
1 cups Kelp meal
1/2 cups dried nettle/yarrow/borage/horsetail or use freshly picked if they grow wild near you. We have all of these locally or in our gardens.
1-2 tbsp. mycorrhizae / Mykes

I mix up a bucket full of this ^^^ and put a lid on it and keep it handy when needed.

------------------------------------------------------

You can mix old with the new and add some amendments like EWC + Kelp meal + some of the amendment mix.

What I do is:
keep a large container of old soil
have a large container of new mix soil that has had a soil test

For each new cannabis start we use the old mix into a fresh #2 nursery pot (2gal). Starts don't need a lot of nutrients so older soil is perfect for seedlings.

For clones I fill the #2 nursery pot with new fresh soil.

Each final container

For each up-pot to final containers - I take out 2gal of the old soil and put that into the old soil mix container and put the plant from the #2 pot into the hole with some extra mycos, water and into flower they go.

In late winter we use up all the old soil for veggie and flower starts for outdoors .... then mix up another new batch of soil.

Nothing gets wasted and everything gets recycled back into the gardens. I don't compost the old soil, we add it into the outdoor gardens with all the new plants... we grow a lot of plants outdoors so it gets used up..mix a new batch of soil in early spring..

around and around goes... very similar to biodynamic gardening.

Hope that made sense....

How do you get the plants to be happy among the old roots? I tried planting into an old root-ball and none of the clones liked it at all, they never grew.

 

[Radogast]

How do you get the plants to be happy among the old roots? I tried planting into an old root-ball and none of the clones liked it at all, they never grew.

I've cut off the old plant near the soil line and dropped the clone in the same 7-10 gat pot 3-4" away. At least a dozen times. Never had an issue using a Clackamus Coot mix.

I haven't tried with seeds, just clones.

 

[JimSaskFarmer]

Thanks Radogast. That's something i have wondered about. I hear people pull the root ball and always thought why not leave it? It would be fully populated with myko's, they would just migrate on over to the new root system. As well as provide nutrients as it decays.

 

[Radogast]

How do you get the plants to be happy among the old roots? I tried planting into an old root-ball and none of the clones liked it at all, they never grew.

BTW: The way I tend to kill clone cuttings when transplanting is when I sprinkle them with rooting compound/mycorrhizal forming fungi powder. When repotting with larger balls, the powder is fine. When placing cuttings with young roots into soil, it seems to harm the roots.

Thanks Radogast. That's something i have wondered about. I hear people pull the root ball and always thought why not leave it? It would be fully populated with myko's, they would just migrate on over to the new root system. As well as provide nutrients as it decays.

Not my idea, I was copying others here - possibly Bobrown14

 

[JimSaskFarmer]

BTW: The way I tend to kill clone cuttings when transplanting is when I sprinkle them with rooting compound/mycorrhizal forming fungi powder. When repotting with larger balls, the powder is fine. When placing cuttings with young roots into soil, it seems to harm the roots.




Not my idea, I was copying others here - possibly Bobrown14

Just seems like common sense to me??