Closet space HPS or LED advice

[JJspinna]

Looking for some final advice before pulling the trigger on lighting. I have spent a pile of time reading through Journals and reviews yet I'm struggling with the final decision. I have not used any form of LED in a grow room in the past and they really have caught my attention for obvious reasons. We already have high utilities and would look at ways to cut down if I choose HPS but I am leaning towards LED's with all the hype any lower power consumption.

I have a l closet measuring 32"W X 62"L X 102"H and growing with soil. No tent, converting closet to grow space. Looking to maintain and produce quality for personal enjoyment over long term.

So far I am building the closet into 2 tiers to house the seedlings under T5's in the lower portion (aprox 24"H) and then have the veg on the top (Aprox 98"H). I am planning on 2 mothers up top and currently have some Crop Kings Super Silver Haze feminized seeds germinating.

I am torn between running 2 Mars 400Watt for veg or 600HPS traditional. The HPS is familiar but there seems to be success with the Mars 2 from the grow journals I have viewed.

Heat in the room will be a concern as the room is west facing and gets lots of afternoon/evening sun with 2 larger windows in the Summer.

Advice is appreciated and anyone with Mars 2 experience is even more so!

 

[arteekay]

Hey JJs,

I'm guessing you already have a grow space for flowering? This space is just for seedling and mothers?

Seedlings don't need a ton of air exchange, but the mothers will. How are you handling fresh air exchange? Odor control? Temp and humidity?

I'm running two Mars II 900w in a 4x4 and my girls seem to be enjoying it. They do run hotter than I expected, but under LEDs you can go a little warmer than HPS (or so it would seem from a video hopefully someone else can link to). My tent runs around 80f with a 4 inch inline fan and carbon filter exchanging about 160 cfm of 72 f air from the room it's in.

If you're not flowering, the 400w might be enough. According to the Mars website it pulls 177w and covers 2.5x2.5, that's only 28.3w per square foot, not exactly optimum and probably not enough to make a satisfying flowering space.

I'm a 2 month old grower, so take everything I type with that knowledge well in hand.

 

[Kingsnake235]

i recently started up in a similar sized space, check out my grow journal in my sig for pics, its 2Dx5Wx8H but its got a shelf at around 5.5 ft up so the top space is unused and just circulates air i guess..

i am in BC with indoor ambient temps around 17C w/ baseboards at 10-12C and i have to run my 600W HID @ 75% so my temps stay below the 80F's

if i had the money, i'd go with a switchable LED with veg/bloom and go the whole grow with that; eventually i will get one for a veg tent and bloom with HPS, but from what i have seen, the LEDs these days are serious products, so if you can afford the initial investment and the power consumption is already a factor, i'd say go for it.

personally, i spent about 250CAD on a 600w ballast with air-cooled hood/reflector, ratchet hangers, MH bulb and HPS bulb off ebay and then had to buy ducting and a fan for like.. 60 bucks more so for a little over 300 i got a proven light system that draws a bit of power, but works like a hot damn; however, because of my heat issues and not being able to use the light to its full potential, i recently ordered a tent for another 200CAD, so had i bought the led in the first place for 4-500 maybe i wouldn't have wanted/needed that so soon afterwards.

you can see from my journal how crowded a space like that will get, but you have 6 inches more depth to work with.

hope that helps!

 

[arteekay]

Sorry, had a puff and thought about it a little more...

The two Mars II 400w pull about 350w together from the wall, so they'd compare more accurately against a 400 watt HPS. The Mars II 700w draws around 300 watts a piece so a pair of them would be the analog of a 600HPS setup.

 

[JJspinna]

Appreciate the reply, I would be using the upper space to flower as well. I should have mentioned that. The lower area will be sealed from the top for the seedlings.

Vent will be taken care of by the bathroom which is directly beside the closet so t-ing into the fan is not a big deal. I will use a 6" fan with carbon filter to the bathroom duct.

I am using a mock heat register in a hall closet for fresh air intake, if this is not sufficient I can add another from the basement ot attic.

I definitely don't have the budget at this time for the 900's but I could opt for a single 700 to start and add an additional one in 4-6 weeks. The current exchange is a kick in the balls.......

 

[arteekay]

I think the 900w would be overkill for the space, the 700 seems to be the sweet spot for each half of your room, and one would be enough to get you through the first 4-6 weeks.

You could also look at doing three or four 400w instead. Then a single light failure only reduces your flowering power by 25% and you have a ton of options for light configuration. I've become a big fan of the multiple small vs one large light since my Spider x4 died. Thankfully it was an easy workaround and it was only out for a few hours, but I panicked and learned a lesson anyway.

One other thing to think about is air moment beyond the air exchange. Flowering Cannabis, with all it's frosty trichomes, creates a micro-environment right around the leaf that is a bit impervious to passive air exchange. It's a plant that is very dependent on the wind, for it's health and pollination (not that we want that, but it sure does).

TL/DR, got a fan you can get in there to get your leaves rustlin' a bit? Even your sprouts and/or rooted clones benefit from a slight wind.

 

[arteekay]

Dammit, why can't I ever get everything into one post...

Definitely check out Kingsnake's journal if you haven't already. I only read the first couple of posts for tonight, but they are doing a great job from what I can see and are writing up a fantastic journal to help us follow along.

On that note, I hope you consider starting your own journal, you can find help links in my signature to hopefully get you going. I can say from personal experience that a grow journal is a great way to let more experienced growers help you help yourself. The quality and willingness to offer that help here at 420mag is unparalleled from what I've been able to find anywhere else.

 

[JJspinna]

A osculating fan will be included in the upper area but I never put much thought into the lower section where the seedlings will be held. I could always mount a few computer fans to the side of the box for the seedlings to assist with drawing air in. Im still constructing the closet so any input is appreciated.

After further review of the 400w I worry I may not get the penetration and will obviously have better yield with 2 700s instead of 2 400's but 3 400's could be arguable.

The thought of losing a light is a fear.........

 

[JJspinna]

Damn it now you got me doing it arteekay! lol

I'm taking notes along the way so I can start a detailed Journal, I see the response and how well yours have done!

I'm open to suggestions but this initial purchase is critical for myself and the planning is key in my experience

 

[Kingsnake235]

if you're worried about penetration you could try to Low Stress Training off the pots you're growing in and create an even canopy.. I'm experimenting with it on 2/6 plants using gumby wire and can definitely see the benefits as far as that is concerned, the new shoots on the LST plant are much longer and bushier than the shoots on the plain ones, showing 6-8, maybe 10 heads instead of 1 and several small ones and there is no penetration issue because the plant is still only 6" off the top of the pot while the taller plants are 8-9". In the future i will try a scrog setup.

 

[arteekay]

Sometime's it's the little things that someone notices that makes all the difference. In my case, a cement slab and forgotten insulation. We knew it beforehand, but somehow just let it slip as a "yeah we should do something about that someday" kind of thing.

Still air is stale air, and stale air is deadly over the long haul. Whatever the solution you come up with is, it needs to directly affect the leaves. You've undoubtedly seen pictures of seedlings being propped up with sticks and wire and whatnot, usually that's because it hasn't experienced the stresses it is expecting in it's natural environment, which is wind right from day one. Micro-breaks in the stem are quickly repaired and just like a bone break, the repair is stronger than the original.

I don't think there's a right answer to which light configuration is "right", just a bunch of varying possibilities, I just wanted you to consider the inevitable component failure and how you can be prepared.

One other thought is RH. Your seedlings/clones and vegetating plants like different relative humidity from flowering plants. Given consideration to how you may handle that?

 

[arteekay]

if you're worried about penetration you could try to Low Stress Training off the pots you're growing in and create an even canopy.. I'm experimenting with it on 2/6 plants using gumby wire and can definitely see the benefits as far as that is concerned, the new shoots on the LST plant are much longer and bushier than the shoots on the plain ones, showing 6-8, maybe 10 heads instead of 1 and several small ones and there is no penetration issue because the plant is still only 6" off the top of the pot while the taller plants are 8-9". In the future i will try a scrog setup.

Great point. We went into our first grow with the intention of giving our girls as stress free a life as we could provide. That's the wrong decision. Cannabis is a weed and requires some stress to really thrive.

By the halfway point of our first grow, we firmly agreed we'd never not train a plant again, and will be topping our next set even before we LST them.

 

[Kingsnake235]

Great point. We went into our first grow with the intention of giving our girls as stress free a life as we could provide. That's the wrong decision. Cannabis is a weed and requires some stress to really thrive.

By the halfway point of our first grow, we firmly agreed we'd never not train a plant again, and will be topping our next set even before we LST them.

cheers!

i went in with intention to scrog, but didn't get the screen ready on time and figured i better learn how they grow a bit first anyways, so i tried one at node 4 and it exploded (HP-1 in my journal) so i did another one and its going well. In future when i have a longer period to grow in i will veg less plants for longer and LST them, get more from a pack of seeds that way and have plenty of shoots to clone from. next time prob 4 plants in 4x4 tent maybe even just 1-2 eventually

 

[ShiggityFlip]

I am with arteekay on this one, for a long space like that closet, more of smaller LEDs would be best. 4 Mars 400s would be pretty awesome in that space. Start out with what you can afford and expand. This will let you see if the venting is going to be adequate or if you will need to upgrade.

 

[JJspinna]

I am starting to like the idea of multiple smaller lights in the closet, I'll try to post some pics later this week of the area. I think I will just start with a pair of 400's from Mars Hydro. They replied with pricing today and other then the current cdn exchange their pricing is awesome!

I know the Super Silver Haze is a tall plant, I'm hoping to control height with a SCROG and just screw 1x2 piece of wood to the outside walls of the closet and build the net off of it. I'm truly only aiming to maintain 2 plants in the closet. Time will tell

 

[ShiggityFlip]

Sounds like a plan!

 

[BeauGreaux]

LEDs are the future but this is not the future ... Stick to reliable MH / HPS.. If you're worried about heat in such a small space maybe look into CMH technology. You could even do just supplemental LED and a 315 LEC light - those things rule.

And I would just do one plant in such a small space and just top/ fim/ supercrop and Lolly pop the hell out of it and trellis it up

- I don't know shit

 

[arteekay]

I am starting to like the idea of multiple smaller lights in the closet, I'll try to post some pics later this week of the area. I think I will just start with a pair of 400's from Mars Hydro. They replied with pricing today and other then the current cdn exchange their pricing is awesome!

I know the Super Silver Haze is a tall plant, I'm hoping to control height with a SCROG and just screw 1x2 piece of wood to the outside walls of the closet and build the net off of it. I'm truly only aiming to maintain 2 plants in the closet. Time will tell

I was hoping you'd go this way, one light per plant for now. It's a great plan.

And it's probably time to start that grow journal, all this can be in there. You could report your first post of the thread and ask our ever friendly and helpful mods to move and retitle this as your grow journal if you want. Planning your space is on-topic for a grow journal.

 

[Dropout]

If I was in your situation this is what I would do... I would look for a led light that is about 48 inches in lenght and 8-9 inches wide... Once I pin pointed a few. I would call those companies and ask them a few questions or do some research to find the answers I need to make a final choice.

Led lights technology is already where its suppose to be, experienced growers can achieve 1g-1.5g per watt with fewers plants in a scrog so all the new research all the new cobs dont matter until we can hit 2g-3g per watt with them or the heat is extremely reduced lets say by running 10w led at 30% so they become 3w leds but then again thats a 70% efficiency lost and were right around 50% right now but personally I would buy a higher powered led running less efficiently but creating alot less heat for more money because stealth is my hobby but thats the only upgrade I could see happening as far as growing with leds...

After trying out the ufo 1w leds when they first came out they were good for veg but it didnt really work out for the buds... 3w leds came out and we could finally grow some nice tops penetration was decent but leds still couldnt compete with an hps which defeated the purpose. 5w epistar and 5w cree leds came out and everybody was ready to veg some monsters and bud some big girls... It finally felt like led could match an hps but try to put another few plants away from the light and damn hps is still winning coverage sucked... But then came the optic lenses that intensify the light and give out more par and some were doubled lense which help distribute the ppfd properly to the plants...

I personally prefer the 3w leds because they produce alot less heat and with a double lensed led light u will get intense par readings and awesome coverage compared to the cobs who are all bunched up together, so that defeats the purpose of saving electricity and becomes double the expense because most light suppliers just followed the new technology to create a worthless product that most people not educated about leds will buy into instead of focusing in bettering there already crappy product.

When the cob came out with 5w and 10w cree leds it was the new hype but most seasoned growers quickly shift back to osrams, vero-29 3w leds for two simple reason they were more spread out then the cob, the 5w leds created too much heat for the small setups like yours and if you are scroggin 3w was perfect to achieve amazing results over 1g per watt, so cobs 10w and 5w leds became irrelevant with the 1w leds and nothing more then a sales pitch. HPS still as a place because of its cheaper price but leds are the way to go even tho the price is significantly more you will save on electricity and win when it comes to gpw/watt. Led buds will always be more frosty and tasty then hps buds.

All this to say find a light that runs on 3w with double lenses one for par intensity and one that distribute it better and u will be happy with that light and wont have to buy a second one. Not all lights are equal because of specs or using the same chip and leds if you have no real intensity below 3ft its a waste if the coverage of the lenses isn't maximized with a good par reading its a waste and if it runs to hot its gonna be a headache and more money to buy and run bigger exhaust fans...

Right now I can only think of 3-4 companies that have real led lights to grow marijuana and the lights i would use would be 3watts. They might be expensive but they do have a good product that will pay itself sooner then you think and longer then you think because u will probably never have to upgrade for the next 5-10 years, the technology is ready its the suppliers who are not all up to speed or just want to scam you for more money for more expensive leds that wont really make a difference or actually perform worst in a real life application.

Most of the suppliers are scammers selling you crap purposely. If they make a good led where if you put a plant or 2 under it and it does good if it doesnt do good with another 2-3 plant under it you will just come back and buy another... like most led light growers who realized that and just started buying more led panels... awesome scam for the led panel sellers... they dont offer you no coverage and thats why there product is cheaper but its not really cheaper when u can buy a panel for 500$ and only need one compared to a 350$ panel but would need 2 to cover the same area with as many par's when the wattage is almost the same... So you basically end up spending more money and more electricity to produce a lil bit more if any
because the rest of the light will just be wasted, once your plants are saturated in a small space and the leds with lenses today are capable of saturating your plants in flower.

A led panel is worth nothing if the ppfd is not well distributed, a ppfd at 12 inch in the center dont mean nothing. 36 inches below center 2-3sqft away means alot more. If you can achieve a reading of 300-500 at that spot then its the only time you have a decent light because a grow light with no even light distribution is just an intense led light not a led grow light..

If you follow this guide of do's and dont's it will guide you to the right light.

Do
Buy a light that runs the coolest
Buy a ight that runs on 3w leds
Buy a light with components from osram or bridgelux
Buy a light with a full spectrum
Buy a light with lenses
Buy a light with the lowest wattage but largest footprint
Buy a light that will give an +400 ppfd reading at 3 ft
Buy a light that reminds you of an hps

Dont's
Don't buy a light that runs too hot
Don't buy a light with cobs just yet
Don't buy a light with cheap chinese leds
Don't buy a light that the leds weren't machined onto the board
Don't buy a light with only blue and red spectrum
Don't buy a light thats intense with no lenses
Don't buy a light if you have to buy 2 of them in a small space
Don't buy a light with a high par at 12 inches that cuts in half at 24 inches
Don't buy a light with a weak footprint
Don't buy a light from china


I know leds and all the information out there about it can make anyone new to this confused. With all the sellers and the price differences and the claims they make we will always be victims to them but like anything in life you just got to know what u want first before u go out looking for it. Btw for best yield with less use scrog flowering plants without a netting is a waste of space also....

BTW....

These rules only apply to micro, closet grows... some of them apply to larger grows too... but in a larger grow i would probably tell you to get some cheap chinese leds that prove to have a good intensity and low enough in heat to put very close to the canopy.... because the panels are pretty bulky and heavy your always gonna need to get more in a bigger space so coverage and intensity will never be affected as much and cheap chinese leds will do very good if they produce enough intensity, coverage will be less of an issue due to the leds overlapping each other.... different rules for different applications. Let me know which leds you plan on getting...

 

[JJspinna]

Thanks for the informative read Dropout, I had already purchased 1 Mars 2 400watt. The current exchange rate for our dollar is pita. My plan is to pick another one up near the end of the month. By then I should be into Veg and I will most likely stick with just the 2 for this round. Again I appreciate the info and input!