Decoding The Holy Grail: Terpene & Cannabinoid Retention: Decarb to Extraction

[Bucudinkydow]

Good morning, sue et al. I do use the frozen 190 ethanol quick wash extraction method. I've become a bit gun shy with direct oil infusion due to several epic failures with my infamous MBM2. I still shudder a bit thinking of all the good pot I've rendered useless in my early experimentations. I've become comfortable with my tincture method and it has the added advantage of easily adjusting the potency but preservation of terpene signature has become a priority and I'm open to exploring new avenues if necessary. Understanding terpenes are the first casualty of heat, is there an oil infusion method that is heat free?

 

[Kicknitup1]

Good morning, sue et al. I do use the frozen 190 ethanol quick wash extraction method. I've become a bit gun shy with direct oil infusion due to several epic failures with my infamous MBM2. I still shudder a bit thinking of all the good pot I've rendered useless in my early experimentations. I've become comfortable with my tincture method and it has the added advantage of easily adjusting the potency but preservation of terpene signature has become a priority and I'm open to exploring new avenues if necessary. Understanding terpenes are the first casualty of heat, is there an oil infusion method that is heat free?

All the extractions that can be done at home involve heat. However excessive heat is not necessary. I run mine between 150-165f. I think additional loss is minimal. But what we are seeing is that terpenes are lost before extraction. Im sure we lose some more but the major losses have already happened.

 

[Kicknitup1]

So I'm wondering....of all the people watching this thread...has no one ever tested an olive/coconut/butter extraction??? With all the "I want to know" attitudes it's hard to imagine that everybody has been living on guesswork all this time. Everyone has an "idea" of the potency of their extract. But do you REALLY??? we could be off by 40-50%! Until I got the tcheck, I was guessing off by 40%. That was a real eye opener!

 

[Oldbear]

All the extractions that can be done at home involve heat. However excessive heat is not necessary. I run mine between 150-165f. I think additional loss is minimal. But what we are seeing is that terpenes are lost before extraction. Im sure we lose some more but the major losses have already happened.

OK so that would explain the benefits of Fresh Harvest processing? No terpene losses before, terps and trichs oil covered during decarb minimize(?) evaporation.

 

[Oldbear]

Something for later stage of these experiments

The impact on taste, smell, effectiveness, of re-introducing terpenes after extraction. Early readings on Buy Terpenes dot com and others confirm you can order pre-mixed terpene profules for a high number of strains.

Interesting implications for medical cannabis, and people working on strain selection based on specific symptoms and results.

Sad in one way - too many big Pharma implications.

 

[smokiebear]

Hey..... I'll have you know my finish flowering tent has never produced the buds it has since I started keeping a bunch of ripening bananas in there. Not only does it supply me with a delicious wake-up snack, it's works to increase yield. I'm living proof that it works.

Sometimes stoner science pays off big time.

I must've missed why along the way, so why do ripening bananas help?

I'm intrigued!

 

[Bucudinkydow]

So I'm wondering....of all the people watching this thread...has no one ever tested an olive/coconut/butter extraction??? With all the "I want to know" attitudes it's hard to imagine that everybody has been living on guesswork all this time. Everyone has an "idea" of the potency of their extract. But do you REALLY??? we could be off by 40-50%! Until I got the tcheck, I was guessing off by 40%. That was a real eye opener!

I do so wish I could participate and contribute with some lab test results but my residences are unfortunately in arguably the most intolerant states in the country. I'm going to have to be a freeloader in this thread with only unsubstantiated anecdotal experiences available to share. Sorry.

 

[Kicknitup1]

OK so that would explain the benefits of Fresh Harvest processing? No terpene losses before, terps and trichs oil covered during decarb minimize(?) evaporation.

That's the theory. Nobody really knows for sure because......can you say LAB TEST????

 

[Oldbear]

Much anticipation of and interest in these test results. Just like Christmas morning

 

[Kicknitup1]

The focus of Canyon and my upcoming study will be on regular decarb & oil extraction techniques. This is because I was on a mission to see what could be done in a kitchen efficiently as a non grower, ie: regular smoker/vaporizer guy who wants to take it to the next level; whether it be for medicinal or maxing out rec use. Frankly, if you haven't tried a high dose edible, then you have NO idea the power of this drug. You have a plethora of advantages as a grower. This should be a project in itself. I, along with everyone else here am extremely interested in determining the value of FHO. But again, until somebody springs for a test, you will have no idea if you are picking up anything at all. You can assume all day long but that doesn't make it so. It will cost several hundred dollars to do the tests I have planned. Don't have a total yet but it is a stress on the budget for sure. Now, that being said, Canyon may be in a position to donate some material to an FHO project. I am perfectly willing to help with the brew. But Canyon and I are already pretty deep in expenses here with what we set out to do. So, now would be the time to pony up a contribution. And no, I don't know the logistics of that but this is still America so it can be done. You have 13 days to figure how to make your voice known. What we will accomplish is already FAR ABOVE the working knowledge I have seen here so far. This is a huge start. I mean seriously, I put up a question this morning asking anyone to share oil test results. None so far. Basically we are all working on educated guesses based upon science that we don't necessarily understand. We are discussing the physics of gases and pressures (which, by the way is serious math by anyones' standards). We are speculating that something that has vaporized can somehow fall back onto the material like fairy dust as if nothing happened. We are holding up a decarb chart from 1990 like it was the holy grail that clearly states it is regarding decarbing thc in an n-hexane extract on an open glass plate. But thats all we really have except for a growing # of decarb how to's that don't show a test result. Well, a scant few do now. Well testing is available. Isn't it about time to use it and stop speculating?

 

[SweetSue]

So I'm wondering....of all the people watching this thread...has no one ever tested an olive/coconut/butter extraction??? With all the "I want to know" attitudes it's hard to imagine that everybody has been living on guesswork all this time. Everyone has an "idea" of the potency of their extract. But do you REALLY??? we could be off by 40-50%! Until I got the tcheck, I was guessing off by 40%. That was a real eye opener!

Most of us are not in legal states and are working under strained finances to begin with, so testing the infused oils hasn't been something anyone was pushing for. Hell, testing anything is a challenge and requires logistics that make most of us terrified. We're in a situation as basic as making a best guess based on what we know and working up to a dose that's effective.

Because it's cannabis we use we can do this with an expectation of getting positive results without negative side effects. Cannabis oils were used as effective healing modalities long before we had the capacity to determine the molecular components that were doing all the heavy work.

What you're doing here is the start of what we hope becomes commonplace. There've been a couple other attempts in the time I've been here to encourage testing. Life keeps getting in the way and it's priority standing tumbles. As you know, testing ain't cheap, and knowing the precise cannabinoid and terpene profiles, while an invaluable resource in formulating effective protocols, won't change the ability of the oils to heal. Not knowing these things won't keep the oil from healing.

And so we continue on with our guesstimates and watch natural healing commence. It's the way it's been done for thousands of years, infuse, ingest, heal. Testing is new. Cannabis therapies will benefit from testing, to be sure, but a lack of testing won't deter a home producer from going ahead and using what was created, what's been used in homes for thousands of years without lab testing, and making a best guess as to potency.

We may not be able to prove yet that the noticable uptick in potency of FHO is caused by the retention of more terpenes and flavonoids, but it's the most logical conclusion. I hope you and Canyon can produce some so you can see for yourself what all the excitement is about. If there's any way to get funds funneled to you for a test that would be wonderful, and I believe there is a way, just one we haven't yet seen. We still have a window of opportunity.

 

[Canyon]

Most of us are not in legal states and are working under strained finances to begin with, so testing the infused oils hasn't been something anyone was pushing for. Hell, testing anything is a challenge and requires logistics that make most of us terrified. We're in a situation as basic as making a best guess based on what we know and working up to a dose that's effective.

Because it's cannabis we use we can do this with an expectation of getting positive results without negative side effects. Cannabis oils were used as effective healing modalities long before we had the capacity to determine the molecular components that were doing all the heavy work.

What you're doing here is the start of what we hope becomes commonplace. There've been a couple other attempts in the time I've been here to encourage testing. Life keeps getting in the way and it's priority standing tumbles. As you know, testing ain't cheap, and knowing the precise cannabinoid and terpene profiles, while an invaluable resource in formulating effective protocols, won't change the ability of the oils to heal. Not knowing these things won't keep the oil from healing.

And so we continue on with our guesstimates and watch natural healing commence. It's the way it's been done for thousands of years, infuse, ingest, heal. Testing is new. Cannabis therapies will benefit from testing, to be sure, but a lack of testing won't deter a home producer from going ahead and using what was created, what's been used in homes for thousands of years without lab testing, and making a best guess as to potency.

We may not be able to prove yet that the noticable uptick in potency of FHO is caused by the retention of more terpenes and flavonoids, but it's the most logical conclusion. I hope you and Canyon can produce some so you can see for yourself what all the excitement is about. If there's any way to get funds funneled to you for a test that would be wonderful, and I believe there is a way, just one we haven't yet seen. We still have a window of opportunity.

Agreed.

Sue,
Funding is a touchy subject to bring up. With the commitments I have made and what I have spent on tests to get to where we are, I am tapped out for a while.

I want to talk to SH Labs when I drop off the air dried samples of the real Extreme plant. I want to ask if an account can be setup where different members in states they have labs could drop off samples. If that flies maybe money could be deposited in the account to help cover a test.

The idea would be to set some priorities around what test are going to be the most useful to add to what we have planed. Then we can ask if anyone is in a position to have that test run.

I plan to take more samples than I intend to have tested now. After the results are back from this round we can decide if any saved samples will help decode something.

If we have more members having their own material tested they will be getting more of a direct benefit from what we are attempting.

We also need to consider the sites' views about money changing hands. That could go from "Don't do it" all the way to "How can we help." So, we should clear any ideas through them before actually setting up anything.

Canyon

 

[Oldbear]

Something of interest for folks in Canada interested in lab testing:

17 Laboratories Available for Private Cannabis Testing

After being barred from accepting any cannabis for testing other than that from the government’s licensed producers, Health Canada now lists 17 laboratories authorized to provide testing services to individuals.

With the government’s new ACMPR regime allowing for home-growing, the opening up of testing options is meant to provide some method of ensuring quality, but also allows for testing of product obtained by patients from licensed producers or from private dispensaries.

Health Canada states on its website that the labs with a current Dealers Licence under the Narcotic Control Regulations to conduct activities with cannabis are able to receive from patients.

“Be sure to contact the laboratory directly before you send your fresh or dried marijuana or cannabis oil,” Health Canada states. “You should find out what testing they offer, how much the tests will cost, and how much fresh or dried marijuana or cannabis oil is needed for an accurate result. In addition, the laboratory may have individual requirements for product submissions.”

Those interested in obtaining testing are required to send either a registration certificate issued under the ACMPR or an authorization to possess issued under the MMAR.

“If you do not include this document, the licensed dealer cannot proceed with the testing,” Health Canada warned. “They need verification that you are within the scope of this exemption in order to legally conduct activities with the fresh or dried marijuana, or cannabis oil that you send. If you do not include this, your fresh or dried marijuana or cannabis oil may be destroyed. It will not be returned to you.”

On their webpage, authorized lab series provider Supra Research and Development says it’s able to provide potency testing of major and minor cannabinoids, pesticide screening, heavy metal contamination and screening for mould.
Licensed dealer Province / Territory Contact information
A&L Canada Laboratories Inc. ON 1-519-457-2575 x241
Alberta Innovates Technology Futures AB 1-780-632-8229
Anandia Laboratories Inc. BC 1-604-822-0253
ARA Avanti Rx Analytics Inc. ON 1-416-548-5998
AXXONLAB Inc. QC 1-888-675-5226 x226
British Columbia Institute of Technology BC 1-604-412-7484
Ccrest Laboratories QC 1-514-324-1073 x238
Dr. Raimar Loebenberg
Katz Group – Rexall Centre for Pharmacy & Health Research
University of Alberta AB 1-780-492-1255
Experchem Laboratories Inc. ON 1-416-665-2134
or
1-866-610-5576
Keystone Labs Inc. AB 1-587-458-8411
Laboratoire PhytoChemia Inc. QC 1-418-321-1227
Labs-Mart Inc. AB 1-780-469-9009
M.B. Laboratories Ltd BC 1-250-656-1334
RPC (Research and Productivity Council) NB 1-506-452-1270
Saskatchewan Research Council
Analytical Laboratory SK 1-306-933-5204
Supra Research and Development BC 1-250-878-4711
University Health Network ON 1-416-581-7601

In a recent Globe & Mail article, M.B. Laboratories Ltd lab services manager Wendy Riggs said since the government opened up lab access to individuals she’s seen an increase in interest from cannabis growing groups looking to have product tested.

“I think it’s a positive thing because it brings awareness of safety to patients and the people who are dependent on this drug,” Riggs said. “They’re just trying to gain more understanding of what they’re consuming as a medicine.”

Tests can range from a few hundred dollars to $1,000 a sample for a full range of tests for contaminants like chemicals, metals and micro-organisms.

 

[I8myweedie5]

im very excited to get in on this with my own little experiment. i will be buying a pressure cooker and using a combination of pressure and decreased heat to decarb. the increased pressure should allow for a debarb at a lower temp. this should lower the conversion rate of thc to cbn and also allow for the reabsorbtion of any evaporated terpened as it is being cooked in a pressurized chamber. just waiting on some funds and some free time. testing here in my state is pretty easy to get so that shouldnt be the hard part. and after some dialing in, it should have a very good retention rate. and to answer a question above about what oils absorb the best, ive heard butter, then coconut oil, then olive oil. however according to sweet sue, olive oil is great for demethylation of the cb receptors which would be a very positive thing for patients fighting cancer. with any questions on demethylation, sweet sue has some awesome info on that. stoked to play around for sure

 

[SweetSue]

im very excited to get in on this with my own little experiment. i will be buying a pressure cooker and using a combination of pressure and decreased heat to decarb. the increased pressure should allow for a debarb at a lower temp. this should lower the conversion rate of thc to cbn and also allow for the reabsorbtion of any evaporated terpened as it is being cooked in a pressurized chamber. just waiting on some funds and some free time. testing here in my state is pretty easy to get so that shouldnt be the hard part. and after some dialing in, it should have a very good retention rate. and to answer a question above about what oils absorb the best, ive heard butter, then coconut oil, then olive oil. however according to sweet sue, olive oil is great for demethylation of the cb receptors which would be a very positive thing for patients fighting cancer. with any questions on demethylation, sweet sue has some awesome info on that. stoked to play around for sure

And I can't tell you enough how stoked I am to have another willing lab rat among us.

We owe all that lovely information I presented to CajunCelt's hard work. He gathered it all up and I took what he presented and formatted it into something more user friendly and easier to understand. It was a labor of love on both sides that came together in this beautiful dance.

But without Cajun there was no SweetSue as you see her now. It was his passion that lit the fire in me.

 

[I8myweedie5]

one thing we will need to keep in mind with the results we all get will be that all terpene solubility levels will differentiate from one another and this will effect our results. and the same goes for water solubility as well.

 

[I8myweedie5]

well then i gotta throw cajan some love too!

 

[SweetSue]

Agreed.

Sue,
Funding is a touchy subject to bring up. With the commitments I have made and what I have spent on tests to get to where we are, I am tapped out for a while.

I want to talk to SH Labs when I drop off the air dried samples of the real Extreme plant. I want to ask if an account can be setup where different members in states they have labs could drop off samples. If that flies maybe money could be deposited in the account to help cover a test.

The idea would be to set some priorities around what test are going to be the most useful to add to what we have planed. Then we can ask if anyone is in a position to have that test run.

I plan to take more samples than I intend to have tested now. After the results are back from this round we can decide if any saved samples will help decode something.

If we have more members having their own material tested they will be getting more of a direct benefit from what we are attempting.

We also need to consider the sites’ views about money changing hands. That could go from “Don’t do it” all the way to “How can we help.” So, we should clear any ideas through them before actually setting up anything.

Canyon

Once I have a better feel for what we can do about funding I'll start a conversation with the admins. It may be something we need to take off site, but I don't think that will be the case. It'll be mostly a matter of logistics, and figuring out how to get funds allocated. I like the idea of making a prioritized list of desired tests so we can coordinate that with what's available for testing.

I have faith that we'll have something worked out when the time is right.

I'm really glad you'll be taking more samples for future investigation.

 

[I8myweedie5]

and just a quick reminder for anyone else playing with these ideas with the pressure cooker, remove any plant material before trying to decarb the oil. this must be done in seperate steps because the plant material will fry in the oil i believe. never tried this before but i sispect that would happen. im going to do the extraction in a regular pot on the stove, with water and oil. after a cook i will seperate plant material from liquid mixture of oil and water. then i will solidify and seperate water from oil by cooling in the fridge. i will then wash the oil one or two times to clear any extra clorophyl from the infused fho. then i will take the cleaned oil and cook it in the pressure cooker to decarb. the open boil shouldnt evaoprate any terpenes and shouldnt convert any to cbn at all.

 

[Canyon]

I am harvesting a plant tonight and tomorrow. I will try a small fresh harvest batch of buds covered with oil. I can take a few samples throughout the decarb and test them with the tCheck when kicknitup1 gets here for CBV values. This will give us some real infusion numbers to work with before starting the main testing.

I am going to have lab test run on some air dried buds from the plant when I am in Albuquerque. We should have lab test back by day two or three to calculate extraction percentages. If I get good numbers for extraction, I will save a sample for a terpene test in the future.

So I have olive, coconut and grape seed oils. Does anyone have a preference? [;>)

I never know