How exactly do breeders create their fem varieties?

[grasbauer]

I'm currently experimenting with selfing by application of SIlver Thiosulfate and I've been following discussions on domestic forums about how stable selfed offspring is. This, of course, depends on the specific strain, but how exactly are they created?

The most simple case would be 2 landraces = F1 hybrid seeds. I first thought selfing this F1 to get a fem version would be the final step, but this would give us the standard F2 1:2:1 distribution. That cannot be what's happening?

An alternative would be to apply STS to a female plant of these 2 parent strains. Is that what breeders are doing?

Most varieties nowadays are crosses of several hybrids, among them the typical "Super Futurehaze_2000" stuff coming out every 4 months, phenotypes all over the place. Years ago when I still used grow tents (which almost always have slight light leaks), I've had strains from the usual suspects, e.g. Arjan's Haze #3 from GHS, where random hermies yielded a few seeds. These were like clones of the mother plant. Does this mean the strain was already stabilized far enough that another generation does not cause a spread of attributes?

I'm just wondering how breeders can offer (relatively) stable strains when they themselves have to use selfing at some point to offer feminized seeds.

 

[HashGirl]

I'm currently experimenting with selfing by application of SIlver Thiosulfate and I've been following discussions on domestic forums about how stable selfed offspring is. This, of course, depends on the specific strain, but how exactly are they created?

The most simple case would be 2 landraces = F1 hybrid seeds. I first thought selfing this F1 to get a fem version would be the final step, but this would give us the standard F2 1:2:1 distribution. That cannot be what's happening?

An alternative would be to apply STS to a female plant of these 2 parent strains. Is that what breeders are doing?

Most varieties nowadays are crosses of several hybrids, among them the typical "Super Futurehaze_2000" stuff coming out every 4 months, phenotypes all over the place. Years ago when I still used grow tents (which almost always have slight light leaks), I've had strains from the usual suspects, e.g. Arjan's Haze #3 from GHS, where random hermies yielded a few seeds. These were like clones of the mother plant. Does this mean the strain was already stabilized far enough that another generation does not cause a spread of attributes?

I'm just wondering how breeders can offer (relatively) stable strains when they themselves have to use selfing at some point to offer feminized seeds.

I don't know a lot about seeds myself but my good friend, @Amy Gardner posted a good write-up on seed types that may be helpful.

 

[grasbauer]

Interesting, thanks. I know the study she quoted, it's a special case (keeping a specific trait like high CBD / low THC).
She also asked herself the same question, how are the typical varieties we buy made? Seems there are several possible answers.

I have outcrossed Zamnesia's GSC knock-off (1 tall and 1 short phenotype) by reversing a 3rd plant, and I am currently waiting for seeds to be ready from these 2 plants selfed with a clone of the same plant. From what I've read, I expect the second version to be more similar to the original.

 

[Icemud]

Selfing is just taking a female single strain, cloning it to have at least 2 or more plants of the same genotype and hitting one of the plants with STS or CS so it develops pollen. The pollen then pollinates the clones of itself and they grow seeds. This creates feminized S1's (selfed seeds).

Most breeders though aren't making stable seeds as that takes much longer to do and generally involves selective breeding over the course of 7 or more generations to get the seeds "near" stable. In professional AG they use genetic markers and DNA mapping of the genome as a tool for selections, and there are other ways too used in big AG that can skip a lot of the steps and make an isogenetic seed stock in just a couple generations, but I haven't heard of this being done on cannabis yet.

Most seeds on the market are not stable and will have variety, which is not a bad thing. Ive run F4's and they had a lot of variety and even run some F9s which were similar but still had some variation.

In terms of Hermies and traits, over time and with true selective breeding, these traits can be bred out of lineage over multiple selective breeding generations, but this is pretty rare in cannabis as most breeders aren't popping 10's of thousands of seeds to find a breeding stock. Some do but its rare.

This is actually why in today's strains like cookies and even og kushes, they may have high THC but lack in other cannabinoids as the lineages have been taken so many generations out from the original parental lines that other cannabinoids have been bred out of the lineage.

I personally have been doing regular breeding (or rather selective pollen chucking) taking more new strains and hitting them with pollen from yesteryear, to try to take the best of today's cannabis and re-introduce some of those lost terpenes and cannabinoids back into the lines, but to also take the traits of modern strains too. Its been a fun journey so far.

 

[grasbauer]

Yup, no proper breeding at most of these "seedbanks".
Hence the question how promising it is to self these one more time. My assumption is these strains had to be stabilized enough that this won't make a huge difference. True F1 hybrids are probably rare.
As you mentioned OG Kush, I'm also selfing that one. Reversed clone in front, other clone in the back.

 

[Icemud]

Yup, no proper breeding at most of these "seedbanks".
Hence the question how promising it is to self these one more time. My assumption is these strains had to be stabilized enough that this won't make a huge difference. True F1 hybrids are probably rare.
As you mentioned OG Kush, I'm also selfing that one. Reversed clone in front, other clone in the back.

Wow, very nice!

I think I attempted about 5 or 6 feminized runs, and had 1 very successful and 1 I got a few seeds. I had a big issue with getting the reversed female to drop pollen. I'd get the sacks no problem but it seemed like they were shooting blanks or no pollen at all would drop. I gave up on doing reversing and focused on using "regular" seeds to breed with males and females and I have to say... Its very very addicting making your own strains lol...

Yea as far as true F1 hybrids, I would say in the cannabis world there probably isn't any true F1 hybrids that I am aware of "by definition" by taking 2 stabilized strains and crossing them. I know in cannabis the term F1 is used very loosely though as pretty much most breeders consider F1 to be a cross of 2 different strains regardless if they are stable or not. The cannabis world nomenclature though when related to AG and established horticulture is pretty different for the most part hence the infamous "strain vs variety" argument...LOL .

I think you will be pleased regardless if the parents are stabilized or not as the way I look at it, each seed the plant produces is a spin of the genetic wheel, and you never really know what kind of magic 2 parents will produce. Personally I've been taking a lot of my more "modern" strains and hitting them with legendary genetics from the 90s, 80s and so on, trying to re-introduce terpenes and cannabinoids that have been bred out of most modern strains, but getting the nice growth structure and resin production that most unworked older strains don't exhibit. Finally getting around to test running some of my creations.


Here is a strain/variety I made. I took a clone only GDP and hit it with Deep Chunk pollen. I planted a single seed from the cross and it turned out absolutely amazing and extremely flavorful so I revegged it. I then hit that clone with DJ Short Blueberry F4 and right now I'm running 2 random seeds as a flower run to see how they turn out. I'm pretty stoked so far on them, and just about to flip to 12/12 to see how they turn out

DeepChunkxGDPxDJShortBlueberryF4 (1).jpg

• Icemud
• Mar 18, 2023
• 79 xmas bud alien antifreeze cannabis deep chunk dj short blueberry icemud indoor marijuana strains

Icemuds flower and test run 2023 featuring hybrid crosses I made including Ogiesel x 79 Xmas...

DeepChunkxGDPxDjShortBlueberryF4#2 (3).jpg

• Icemud
• Mar 18, 2023
• 79 xmas bud alien antifreeze cannabis deep chunk dj short blueberry icemud indoor marijuana strains

Icemuds flower and test run 2023 featuring hybrid crosses I made including Ogiesel x 79 Xmas...

Here is another one that I am running for a test run. I took a clone only Ogiesel that I've had for probably 8 years and hit it with 79 Xmas Bud pollen (a very piney afghani). Just about to flip it to flowering

OGieselx79XmasBud (3).jpg

• Icemud
• Mar 18, 2023
• 79 xmas bud alien antifreeze cannabis deep chunk dj short blueberry icemud indoor marijuana strains

Icemuds flower and test run 2023 featuring hybrid crosses I made including Ogiesel x 79 Xmas...

 

[grasbauer]

Very nice, that's creative. I don't have access to many clones or seeds because of.. legal problems in my country. The only European one where even seeds are confiscated by customs. That's the main reason I'm doing this, plus the outrageous prices and sometimes dubious quality of purchased seeds.

About the empty pollen sacks with STS, I had this problem once, probably due to low temperatures. There is generally little pollen with this method, what little there is gets soaked up by the sack's moisture once you open it. What helped was simply cutting off and drying the plant.

 

[Icemud]

Very nice, that's creative. I don't have access to many clones or seeds because of.. legal problems in my country. The only European one where even seeds are confiscated by customs. That's the main reason I'm doing this, plus the outrageous prices and sometimes dubious quality of purchased seeds.

About the empty pollen sacks with STS, I had this problem once, probably due to low temperatures. There is generally little pollen with this method, what little there is gets soaked up by the sack's moisture once you open it. What helped was simply cutting off and drying the plant.

Yea it seems to be a problem that I've heard a lot of breeders have with creating fems. I was super frustrated with wasting time and effort with feminized reversals producing pollen and so I shifted to regulars. I tried researching it and didn't really find a proven reason why it was happening. My thought was maybe because the clones I was using to reverse maybe already were s1? Maybe a feminized clone can't be reversed(not a female, but a clone of a feminized plant)? that was the conclusion I came to after using both CS and STS but never really found a reason why it was happening on some strains and not others. For instance my very first attempt was my black cherry soda, it reversed no problem with CS and blew clouds of pollen, just like a male would. But my trainwreck I only got tiny little bits of pollen and maybe made like 50 seeds total by literally beating the male flowers over the females...LOL.

Thats a good idea to cut them off and dry them to see if anything comes out that way.

I hope you have good luck with your reversal! OK kush is definitely a mighty fine strain to have a lot of seed on hand of

 

[grasbauer]

The optimal dosage for STS cannot be found on forums it seems, it needed a bit of research. I might open another thread for that.
Of course it also depends on the specific strain, but so far they all turned sooner or later.

Looking forward to the OG Kush harvest, but man does it stink. I turned off the fan/filter for a while to test, and the room smelled like a mixture between a urinal and a compost heap. Wow. There's also GSC and Malawi X GSC in the cabinet, but the putrid aroma must be the Kush.

 

[BuzzzD]

I might open another thread for that.

I would follow that thread!!! I am gearing up to try this - with autos and photos.
Right now I have a photo that was sprouted months ago just to see what the seeds would do so the first couple of months they just barely survived - no lights, no heat - anyway, one seems to have hermi'd - it looks like it is female but a couple of balls have appeared so if that continues I will let it pollinate itself. My thinking is that the offspring, if any, may not hermi if they are not stressed like the parent.
I am also going to try the STS on some new plants when spring finally arrives.

 

[Virgin Ground]

The optimal dosage for STS cannot be found on forums it seems, it needed a bit of research. I might open another thread for that.

This one works good.

Icemud's Breeding Projects And Motherchucking Pollination Extravaganza

Sounds like a lovely dream and something that i think you'd not only be good at, but it'd be something that i know you would truly enjoy! Very True! mixing music and growing/smoking cannabis are to things my heart truly loves.

www.420magazine.com

I looked online for quite some time to find it.

Make sure you read the post after the one I tagged for you. A video is included.

 

[grasbauer]

Thanks. Molar ratio on that one seems to be a bit off, too, but it should be close enough. Let's continue in the other thread, I'll write something up.

p.s. there are several other threads about this, I'll just reply to one of them.
p.p.s reply is here:

Complete Guide To Using STS To Create Feminized Seeds

Starting STS soon on 3 Autoflowers… pineapple Xpress auto Girl Scout Cookies auto and Tangie auto… plants 11 days old… I have read until I am blue in the face and cannot find specifics on when they start spraying Auto’s(it seems like putting bits and pieces together start spraying the minute I...

www.420magazine.com

 

[grasbauer]

Thought I'd share another image from the reversed OG Kush. Worked really well this time with higher temperatures, amount of pollen is similar to a male plant. I've removed it from the cabinet, already got a lot more pollen than I needed. That AHS article I quoted really is spot on with its 3 applications of a 3 mM solution.

 

[BuzzzD]

Thought I'd share another image from the reversed OG Kush.

That's a lot of balls!!!

 

[Icemud]

This one works good.

Icemud's Breeding Projects And Motherchucking Pollination Extravaganza

Sounds like a lovely dream and something that i think you'd not only be good at, but it'd be something that i know you would truly enjoy! Very True! mixing music and growing/smoking cannabis are to things my heart truly loves.

www.420magazine.com

I looked online for quite some time to find it.

Make sure you read the post after the one I tagged for you. A video is included.

Here is what I did

• 
  [*}silver nitrate
• Sodium Thiosulfate
• Water

1. Mix 1 g Silver Nitrate in 60ml H2O (silver nitrate solution)
2. Mix 6.25g Sodium Thiosulfate into 240ml H2O (sodium thiosulfate solution)
3. Mix 10 ml of the Silver Nitrate solution and 40ml Sodium Thiosulfate solution from above, into 250ml of H20 (10ml + 40ml = 50ml)

This is the Ag-Thio

Note to anyone trying to use STS (Silver Thiosulfate), be VERY careful with it.. this stuff is very toxic but also very caustic and will turn almost everything it touches black. I had a very dilluted solution of it and it almost died my sink black even with water running.


Definitely got balls with the ratios above, and I think I only sprayed 2 or 3 times total. Just was unlucky with the balls producing pollen and from what I understand its a strain thing. Some strains do produce a ton of pollen, some dont at all and some very little.

 

[Icemud]

Thought I'd share another image from the reversed OG Kush. Worked really well this time with higher temperatures, amount of pollen is similar to a male plant. I've removed it from the cabinet, already got a lot more pollen than I needed. That AHS article I quoted really is spot on with its 3 applications of a 3 mM solution.

Very nice!!! Thats great to hear you got a lot of pollen too

Love OG kush!!!!

 

[grasbauer]

Afaik, the solution isn't very toxic to humans (though very much to aquatic organisms), especially not at this low concentration. It will cause a grey or black stain that is very hard to remove even from enamel.

I think the amount of pollen is connected to the degree of the chemicals' effect.. I've used the same method 2x on the same strain (Zamnesia GSC), once at 20° and once at below 15. No problems at all at the higher temperature, lots of empty or almost empty sacks at the lower. With the 3 mM dosage and proper 1:4 molar ratio, results should be good most of the time. The varying success with lower amounts is well documented in the study I linked to.

 

[mortygrow]

for me it's all some kind of magic. it's super hard work

 

[BuzzzD]

Right now I have a photo that was sprouted months ago just to see what the seeds would do so the first couple of months they just barely survived - no lights, no heat - anyway, one seems to have hermi'd - it looks like it is female but a couple of balls have appeared so if that continues I will let it pollinate itself. My thinking is that the offspring, if any, may not hermi if they are not stressed like the parent.

Gosh - I have never quoted myself before....but... about the above mentioned plants, the poor abused things, does anyone know at what stage they will not reveg??? I am an outside grower but I am hoping that I have pollinated the one that gave me some pollen and one other and have been putting them in a cupboard at about 5 pm each night so that they continue with flowering but will I be able to stop or do I have to continue this until they have matured fully and are ready to harvest????? I sure hope not!!! I'm forgetful so this may not end well!!!

 

[grasbauer]

It depends on the specific strain and the latitute of your location, but even here in North Germany (latitude similar to Edmonton/Canada) the days are now already long enough to prevent flowering. Going back to veg willl take a while at this daytime length. Just continue inside?