Newbie Grower, Carmen Auto x Diva, Outdoors

[CBDMed]

I have no idea. The way the granulated sugar works is it pulls liquid out of the fish/plant material osmotically, meaning it pulls the goodies from inside the cells through the cell walls. But the sugar needs to start out dry for that to work.

Hi @Azimuth .
I just want to double-check, to make sure I do it right.

To make KNF:
When we eat fish next, I will weigh out the fish guts, and then measure out an equal weight of granulated brown sugar.
Then I will do my best job of "battering the fish guts" thoroughly with the brown sugar, so that it gets all over everything.
Then I put it all in a jar, add NO water, but DO add a tsp of wc, and then I DO add a sugar cap.
The granulated sugar will pull the water it needs out of the fish guts, and it is anaerobic because the granulated sugar will seal itself, if I put a good 1/2" cap on top? Is that right?

Questions:
1. Do I mix the wc into the granulated brown sugar before I batter the fish?
2. And do I use any leftover sugar to make that cap? Or do I add extra sugar to make that cap?

3. Also, if KNF is 1:1000 and Jadam is 1:100, then do you end up with at least 10 times as much Jadam as KNF (such that Jadam is "more bang per trout", so to speak?)
Or do you get "more bang for your trout" with KNF (if you know what I am asking, haha.)

 

[Azimuth]

To make KNF:
When we eat fish next, I will weigh out the fish guts, and then measure out an equal weight of granulated brown sugar.
Then I will do my best job of "battering the fish guts" thoroughly with the brown sugar, so that it gets all over everything.
Then I put it all in a jar, add NO water, but DO add a tsp of wc, and then I DO add a sugar cap.
The granulated sugar will pull the water it needs out of the fish guts, and it is anaerobic because the granulated sugar will seal itself, if I put a good 1/2" cap on top? Is that right?

And some people just do layers; a sugar layer, then fish, then another layer of sugar, etc. It'll work faster if you mix it well, but the fish guts aren't the most pleasant thing to work with.

2. And do I use any leftover sugar to make that cap? Or do I add extra sugar to make that cap

I usually add extra sugar for the cap as I want the weighed sugar to be in close contact with the fish as much as possible.

3. Also, if KNF is 1:1000 and Jadam is 1:100, then do you end up with at least 10 times as much Jadam as KNF (such that Jadam is "more bang per trout", so to speak?)
Or do you get "more bang for your trout" with KNF (if you know what I am asking, haha

Unlike most KNF ferments, the fish will mostly decompose over time so you'll actually end up with about as much FAA as the fish you started with. With most of the others done with plant material the final yield is a mere fraction of what you started with. But with the fish the vast majority gets converted.

 

[CBDMed]

Ok, excellent. Thank you very much!

And some people just do layers; a sugar layer, then fish, then another layer of sugar, etc. It'll work faster if you mix it well, but the fish guts aren't the most pleasant thing to work with.

Yeah, I don't mind them when they are fresh. I thought about opening this bottle of existing fishwine, and thought that your advice is better! I will just leave it alone, and I can test it first on some bush or something, to see if it kills it, or if it is ok. Then I will know how to use it.
We should get some fresh fish either this week or next, and will coat them well with the brown-sugar-wc mix, and then put a 1/2" sugar cap over the top, and park it.

I usually add extra sugar for the cap as I want the weighed sugar to be in close contact with the fish as much as possible.

Excellent! Thank you.

Unlike most KNF ferments, the fish will mostly decompose over time so you'll actually end up with about as much FAA as the fish you started with. With most of the others done with plant material the final yield is a mere fraction of what you started with. But with the fish the vast majority gets converted.

Ahh, ok.
Sorry, it seems I was not clear.
I guess what I am trying to ask is, if I put one matching set of trout guts in one quart jar, and another matching set of trout guts in another quart jar, and I put the first trout to KNF and the second trout to Jadam, will one of them give me "more growth for my trout guts" than the other?

(I don't mind getting a little clean fish guts on my hands, or a little organic-brown-sugar-and-worm-squat.
I just am very impressed by the whole concept of FAA, and I want to do whichever one will give me "more growth factor for my trout" (haha), so to speak.
I hope you know what I am asking (haha).

 

[Azimuth]

Sorry, it seems I was not clear.
I guess what I am trying to ask is, if I put one matching set of trout guts in one quart jar, and another matching set of trout guts in another quart jar, and I put the first trout to KNF and the second trout to Jadam, will one of them give me "more growth for my trout guts" than the other?

Assuming you leave 1/3 of the jar unfilled, you'll get roughly 2/3rds of a quart of end product from each jar. But the KNF is used 10 times more diluted, so the KNF will make 10 times more fully diluted liquid to feed the plants.

 

[CBDMed]

Ok, great!
KNF it is!
I have three liter / quart jars here, we will just start filling them up as we eat fish (and maybe they can ferment a good long time).
(I am starting to like this anaerobic thing!)

Ok, so may I please ask, which nutes and myco and things do you spend money on?
And which can you produce yourself?

Do you use fish for veg, and Banana Jadam for bloom?

And are there other anaerobic teas teas should I start?

Thank you!

 

[Azimuth]

Ok, so may I please ask, which nutes and myco and things do you spend money on?
And which can you produce yourself?

None that I use. I have a few products as a backup but most remain unopened. I spent money on some amendments like my neem, karanja and crustacean meals, and a bunch of stuff I used for making my Coots Mix (which I no longer use) and perlite, etc, but nothing purchase for nutrients.

Do you use fish for veg, and Banana Jadam for bloom?

Fish FAA is the most powerful of my homemade nutes, but now that my comfrey, stinging nettle and horsetail fern supply is increasing I'm going to try to run the grow on those plus my castings. I have a Jadam mix brewing from fruits and flowers going now for flower.

And are there other anaerobic teas teas should I start?

I made a lot of different Jadam and KNF extracts last year that I'm still working thru. Too many to be frank. I did seaweed, horsetail, Comfrey, Dandelion, willow, etc. Also made water soluble calcium from eggshells and another from bones. I have too many jars hanging around that I need to use up.

But those are the main ones.

 

[CBDMed]

None that I use. I have a few products as a backup but most remain unopened. I spent money on some amendments like my neem, karanja and crustacean meals, and a bunch of stuff I used for making my Coots Mix (which I no longer use) and perlite, etc, but nothing purchase for nutrients.

That's very encouraging! Thank you for that.

Fish FAA is the most powerful of my homemade nutes, but now that my comfrey, stinging nettle and horsetail fern supply is increasing I'm going to try to run the grow on those plus my castings. I have a Jadam mix brewing from fruits and flowers going now for flower.

If things go the way I think they will go, then I should be able to grow comfrey, stinging nettle, horsetail fern, and willow, if I can get cuttings or seeds.
I guess we are going to search for a medical seed supplier in country.
Are there other herb seeds that I should get from the start?

I made a lot of different Jadam and KNF extracts last year that I'm still working thru. Too many to be frank. I did seaweed, horsetail, Comfrey, Dandelion, willow, etc. Also made water soluble calcium from eggshells and another from bones. I have too many jars hanging around that I need to use up.

But those are the main ones.

A local man told me that what they do here is to dig a pit, and throw their kitchen food waste in there until it fills up, and then let the worms go at it. And then in a 2-3 months, it is super-rich soil.
I am not sure if pure kitchen worm compost like that will work in pots, but apparently it works great here for soil.
Rice hulls are cheap here, for aeration. I guess they supply silica.

I signed back up for your KNF thread (and for Emmie's Dandelion thread). Hopefully I will get time to go through them soon. I have a big batch of Subcool's for right now, but it would be ideal to learn how to make it myself. Hopefully over time I can pick it up.

 

[CBDMed]

"To Up-pot, or Not to Up-pot", that is the question!

Sorry, I am ignorant of the rules for up-potting! I think I got confused. How do you know when to up-pot again?

Here are three each 11 Roses Autos from a sponsor. Today was very cool, but they still look a little wilty, maybe like a little leaf upcurl.
So I thought, that is just like the LSDAutos were giving leaf upcurl, right before we up-potted them to a 3g cloth pot. (Now the LSDAutos are doing fine after the up-potting, no more leaf up-curl!).

So then I remembered what @Emilya said about plants letting you know when they reach their limits in a pot, and then they slow down--and I wondered if that could maybe be it, because they still seem plenty moist.
This first girl is the biggest, but they are all very similar.

The second girl is similar.

The third is a little smaller, but not by much.

What are the rules for up-potting?
Does this wiltiness perhaps qualify as a plant starting to slow down because it reached its pot limits?
Or are these not big enough to uppot to a 3g yet?

I ask because like before with the LSDAutos, I will have to water in a couple of days, and it would also seem a good time to up-pot, if it is not too soon.
(She is wider than the cup, and roots tend to follow the canopy, that is all I know.)

I also have some 1G plastics now, if that would be better--but if it is a tossup, I would prefer to go straight to the 3g cloth pot. The other 4 in 3g cloth pots seem to be happy to be there.

Thank you!

 

[Azimuth]

Generally you want to form a root ball in the current container and one sure sign you are ready to up-pot is if they can drain a fully saturated pot in a day or two at the most. If you are still on a watering cycle that is three days or longer you can just keep them in the smaller pot.

 

[CBDMed]

Generally you want to form a root ball in the current container and one sure sign you are ready to up-pot is if they can drain a fully saturated pot in a day or two at the most. If you are still on a watering cycle that is three days or longer you can just keep them in the smaller pot.

Well.....
I would not swear to anything, but at least I thought that was what I was doing, but if I remember correctly, I think Emilya said something to the effect that I had missed the correct up-potting time, because girlie had given me some similar indications that she needed some bigger britches, but I had not known what they were.
So I thought to pay better attention in the future with future girls, and I up-potted the LSDA's with similar upcurl and not-happy-looking conditions, and they are happy and growing now.

I do not really know why the little 11Rs seemed wilty and tired today. Maybe I misread something? That seems very possible.
Only, I was very chagrinned!
If I recall correctly, @Emilya said that if you miss the uppotting time, the plant metabolism slows down, and then it can actually start taking LONGER to drain the cup, because the plant feels like it has hit its limitations in the cup, or something.
I know that some plants do some strange things if they feel for whatever reason that their ultimate resources are limited. They can slow down, or stop.
So I guess I will wait on Emilya?

Maybe I am thinking totally off? That is why I thought to check and ask Em.

 

[Azimuth]

How long does it take to completely dry the mix?

 

[CBDMed]

Frankly, Azi, I don't know. Sorry!!
I tried downloading Em's app, but it is Android (and I am on iPhone SE).
I downloaded some iPhone apps, and then things got super run run busy again, and I never got back to them.
I am just getting a little bit of time today, and then it is back in the barrel again.
The low-tech solution (clipboard) was supposed to come last week, but did not. (I am still hoping my low-tech solution will get here soon!)
I started keeping a simple list on a phone Notes app, but it only records uppotting, not waterings. I am really looking forward to getting a clipboard or spiral notepad!
Sorry! I am sure that is all wrong, but I have got another super busy week ahead, and I am pretty much just out of time.

I was trying to time things to make simple wet / dry alternations, but then I got all confused when Em said there are other factors than the wet / dry alone.
That was news to me. So I thought I should check, because the upcurl and wilting pattern seems similar.

 

[Emilya Green]

when the roots hit the point of diminishing returns it is because suddenly there are so many of them that when they swell up with water, they are then in each other's way. This will cause the wet/dry cycle to slow down and suddenly you are waiting 3 and 4 days again.

 

[CBDMed]

when the roots hit the point of diminishing returns it is because suddenly there are so many of them that when they swell up with water, they are then in each other's way. This will cause the wet/dry cycle to slow down and suddenly you are waiting 3 and 4 days again.

Ok, thank you!
That sounds like a significantly more root-dense rootball than the one I've got.
So, maybe a dumb question, but to clarify, it sounds like you would wait?

 

[Emilya Green]

Ok, thank you!
That sounds like a significantly more root-dense rootball than the one I've got.
So it sounds like you would wait?

yes, the length of the wet/dry cycle is your key

 

[CBDMed]

yes, the length of the wet/dry cycle is your key

Thank you, @Emilya !

 

[CBDMed]

@Emilya , just one more question.
Should the length of time make any difference between indoors under lights, and outdoors?
Because you are running 19 / 5 under pro-level lighting, will she drink her drink at a different cadence than if she was outdoors, with maybe 9-10 good hours of sun a day?
Or does that make no difference, it is still just 24-48 hours, period?

 

[Azimuth]

So, if you don't remember watering them yesterday it has likely been at least two days and likely more. I think you're making this growing thing too complicated.

You have good roots in that cup but they are by no means filling it. I would give them a few more cycles at least.

 

[CBDMed]

Ok, thank you and @Emilya both!

 

[Emilya Green]

@Emilya , just one more question.
Should the length of time make any difference between indoors under lights, and outdoors?
Because you are running 19 / 5 under pro-level lighting, will she drink her drink at a different cadence than if she was outdoors, with maybe 9-10 good hours of sun a day?
Or does that make no difference, it is still just 24-48 hours, period?

The sun is quite a bit more powerful than anything we are going to cobble together indoors, and if anything the plant's ability to use water should be increased outdoors, and addition to that, there is almost always some sort of wind to take evaporation away. But, we are able to run 19 hours or better indoors, with quite a good amount of light, so that has to have an effect too. I give that one a toss up, and I come in on the side that your outdoor period, albeit shorter than mine, is more intense, so it wins out. You should be able to use more water per day than I do indoors... but still, as far as transplanting, its still all about the roots. What are those roots able to do, given the right conditions? If they are robust enough to process that much water in 24-48 hours, then it is time to transplant.