What's this telling me?

[bobrown14]

You don't drown anything by flushing. Flushing is commonly done in soil... it isn't just a coco thing. We had just got done talking on this thread about flushing that old soil of any built up salts and went through all of that discussion, and now you are second guessing what we advised to do after it was done. Too many cooks can spoil the broth as they say... Let's see how this first basic attempt at fixing this grow goes, and then if that doesn't work, we can throw worm poop and kelp and other good stuff at it, and see what sticks.

No its not. We've had this discussion already.

Yes you do drown your soil and along with it all the microbes. Its a shame you cant wash away the nutrients that are tied to soil particles via chemistry and physics in a process known as Cation Exchange Capacity.

It's the science... Salts built up... how does that even happen and show me the science behind that and how running water thru the soil somehow miraculously washes them out.

It doesn't happen.

There's no miracles just science. The science is Cation Exchange Capacity.

If you don't believe me here's the science and a quick google will give you TONS of information.

The nutrients are ATTACHED to the soil particles via chemical bonds. Water has no charge so how does water remove a cation (nutrients) that are bonded to soil particles?

It doens't it wont it cant and it isnt. Just the facts...

Here's the science:

Primer on CEC:

AY-238

Here's your science from our local university that has a soil lab.

Now show me some science on flushing .... I'll wait.

Edit: not trying to be a douche here I'm just disagreeing with flushing.

Here's some food for thought.
IF it was a thing how come my local farmers dont go out and spread fertilizer after every rain storm?

 

[Emilya Green]

Salt does not build up in fields... it simply washes away. In a closed container, salt buildup is a thing, and it does need to be dealt with. Salt takes up valuable spaces in the soil's ability to hold nutrients, the CEC you speak of. Water dissolves salt, and that is the miracle, the science, that you fail to see... the dissolved built up salt can be washed away with water.

10 years ago, the most popular advice given on these online forums was to flush the salt out of your soil to fix a myriad of problems. Suddenly it is not a thing? Sorry Bob, as many times as you have repeated the above argument in response to my call for a flush, I am not ever going to be convinced... flushing is as valid today as it always has been.

 

[bobrown14]

Yep its not a thing still waiting for some science.

The last place I wanna get that science is a weed blog.... just sayin.

Flushing is what folks that grow hydroponically not soil growers.

I'm not sure how it morphed to soil.

But cannabis growers are the only folks I see talking about it.

Anions and cations have a proton charge. This charge is what binds those "salts" to the soil particles. It wont wash away unless and its a big unless, you have poor soil that is mainly sand with very little soil particles.

The reason soil-less mediums and hydroponics flush is because there are no soil particles for the "salts" to attach to.

You're an organic grower right? I'm not sure why you keep holding on to this flushing process. It really makes no sense.

The salts you speak of are nutrients = anions and cations. They both have a charge associated with them. Water is H2o = no charge. Water cannot dislodge anions and cations from soil organic matter.

These anions and cations are converted into your "salts' by soil microbes at the plants rhizosphere then taken up by the roots. The exchange happens in the root zone. Plants root exudate takes the place of the cations and anions attached to the soil particles.

You likely are killing the microbes that do this heavy lifting at the root zone with too much water.

In soil we are not adding soluble nutrients unless we are using fertilizers that are soluble. In a proper soil those soluble nutrients attach themselves to the soil particles by way of CEC.

THE ONLY TIME soluble nutrients can be washed out of the soil is when the CEC is at saturation for that particular cation or anion. In a proper soil mix with a decent CEC they will chemically bond to those soil particles and water wont do diddly to them as they dont reach saturation in a decent soil.

To summarize - if you have built up salts to the point of saturation, lower your fertilizer input. This is why we get a soil sample so we can figure out what we need in the soil or what we don't need which is the important part to keep from polluting the environment with excess Nitrates.

 

[Verbalist]

No its not. We've had this discussion already.

Yes you do drown your soil and along with it all the microbes. Its a shame you cant wash away the nutrients that are tied to soil particles via chemistry and physics in a process known as Cation Exchange Capacity.

It's the science... Salts built up... how does that even happen and show me the science behind that and how running water thru the soil somehow miraculously washes them out.

It doesn't happen.

There's no miracles just science. The science is Cation Exchange Capacity.

If you don't believe me here's the science and a quick google will give you TONS of information.

The nutrients are ATTACHED to the soil particles via chemical bonds. Water has no charge so how does water remove a cation (nutrients) that are bonded to soil particles?

It doens't it wont it cant and it isnt. Just the facts...

Here's the science:

Primer on CEC:

AY-238

Here's your science from our local university that has a soil lab.

Now show me some science on flushing .... I'll wait.

Edit: not trying to be a douche here I'm just disagreeing with flushing.

Here's some food for thought.
IF it was a thing how come my local farmers dont go out and spread fertilizer after every rain storm?

didnt read where this flushing argument started. But obviously you can flush soil. But IMO there is ”2 different things” regarding soil flushing:

- for example you have only lightly pre-fertilized soil and you stir in nutes from bottles which is mixed into the irrigation water. -> obv you can flush those not yet completely dried down nutrient waters off from the soil.

- the soil is heavily pre fertilized, lets say for example sohum. -> from itself soil you cannot flush those nutrients off. Like bobrown14 mentioned those nutrients are with some scienfitic way tied to the soil and cannot be easily or at all flushed off

 

[Verbalist]

Also if we would do a poll asking if soil growers flush the plants at the end of the flowering I’d say +90% would answear yes, they flush the soil using plain water to clear off artificial bottle fertilizers. Makes the weed taste better, and some people even tends to flush it with sugar water to make the weed taste even more better. (Lol havent tried sugar but heard that flushing with it improves the taste.)

 

[Emilya Green]

Flushing is what folks that grow hydroponically not soil growers.

This statement is easily disproven. Here as evidence, I submit to you the Fox Farm SOIL feeding schedule. Please note 2 things. First, there are 3 different times when a full 3x flush is not just called for, it is required. Secondly, take special note that there is no flush at the very end.

Scientists developed this Fox Farm growing system, so I would consider this chart to be a product of that science and proof that flushing does indeed exist in soil growing, and has all along.

 

[Emilya Green]

You're an organic grower right? I'm not sure why you keep holding on to this flushing process. It really makes no sense.

To answer this specific question, I will first say yes... I am an organic grower. We however are not talking about my grow in this thread, we are talking about the OP and their grow, which is not organic.

Organic soils and growing methods do not block the CEC with left over salt, because there is no salt building up as there is, by definition, in a synthetic nutrient grow. Synthetic nutes are locked up so they don't interact against each other in the bottle by using a process called chelation, which is essentially binding certain nutes together inside of a salt shell. This shell is broken apart when you mix the nutes into a fluid within a specific pH range and then the nutrients are said to be "mobile" and available to the plant. The salt binding does not disappear, it simply dissolves into the water and over time builds up in the soil since nothing in the growing process is using it in order to make it go away. As it continues to build up over time, it begins to take up space in the soil that should be occupied by nutrients, so over time your soil becomes not as able to temporarily store as much nutrient for the plants between waterings, because it is storing the salt instead, debris from your nutes that has no where to go.

This is why we flush... because water will easily dissolve the salt and wash it away from the soil and down the drain. The thing that makes no sense here is that this has been understood since bottled nutes and container growing has been a thing, and right from the beginning everyone knew about salt lockouts and how they were caused and what to do about them. The science is there for all to see. You also need to stop taking this argument of context by citing unrelated agricultural studies, trying to make it sound like what happens outside in the ground has anything to do with closed container gardening. Your homework for further discussion on this matter (instead of continually repeating, almost word for word your above CEC argument) is to look up "salt lockout" and explain to me next time you wish to argue about flushing, what it is and why it is a thing.

 

[bobrown14]

In soil with soil organic matter as part of the soil mix, the cations that are in the bottled nutrients even tho those bottled nutrients are soluble in water as soon as your pour the nutrient solution into the soil those cations attach themselves to the soil particles. IF you over use that nutrient solution all the plant does is take what it needs. The excess nutrients are still attached to the soil particles.



That's just how the science works.

Most all the organic farmers growing in soil I know dont flush. With a few exceptions here.


Normally I just move on when people talk flushing .... when I see it recommended for new or inexperienced growers I feel compelled to step in and post up some science.

Btw still waiting for any science backing up flushing.

A company selling something recomending flushing isnt science. That's a company sitting on the fence afraid to say the right thing and alienate their client base.
Science = a scientist writing papers that are peer reviewed by other scientists and then published. Those papers are free there is no money involved.

You wont find any. I've looked.

 

[Emilya Green]

You wont find any. I've looked.

It took 1 minute to find this piece of science from the PhDs at Advanced Nutrients. Flushing is a thing... in all mediums.

Plant Flushing: The Importance of Flushing Your Plants Before Harvest

We're exploring the truth about plant flushing: what it is, why it’s so important, and the best way to go about flushing for maximum benefit.

cannacon.org

Here are some words from Royal Queen Seeds: Nutrient Lockout In Cannabis Plants - Preventing And Treating - RQS Blog

And here last, let me reference the growing guru Ed Rosenthal, also a proponent of flushing: Flushing Cannabis Guide: Everything You Want to Know — Ed Rosenthal

Science.... the truth is out there, if you only look.

 

[DeeCee112]

Good discussion here with lots of information from very experienced growers.

Here's my impartial take: we have solid arguments from both the flush and no flush sides but much like many topics on growing cannabis noone can say 100% one way or the other. I do believe getting stuck in old habits and tribal knowledge is something this industry struggles with so just because flushing has been popular and recommended for years does not mean it cannot be challenged, but also that challenges should be equally scrutinized.

I don't know enough about soil and organic growing yet to have much of value to say other than let's all keep an open mind, try to step back on taking the different opinions personal and continue to provide the information, evidence and experience and let the growers(s) make the decision on what is sufficient.

 

[Helpaguyout]

Dunno about all the bickering but its flushed and improved quite abit yellowing has slowed to almost nothing all the old dead leaves stripped off and left it 3 days to dry out befor feeding. Made up a new res of feed ans fed twice since. Still the odd damaged leaves but better by far.
Thanks for the input every 1 im not proving or disproveing the flush theory but this time its helped keep the plant alive the rate if yellowing would have seen no leaves left so yeah plant saved this time

 

[HashFart]

Hey helpaguyout , don't get overwhelmed,,,, I was worried about build up with my sativas because they take soooooooo long to finish... I found myself giving a big big drink almost a flush once a week with just purpinator it has a gentle npk value of 0-2-4 ,, and I think there's stuff In there that helps the plant eat up the stuff that's already in the soil ,then I would just get back on track with my feed chart, a little pk never hurt nothing in flower I almost like to look at purpinator as a booster for what is already there.. just my opinion brother , awesome training by the way ! Your going to have lots of nugggies!!!!

 

[Koolbudz]

Dunno about all the bickering but its flushed and improved quite abit yellowing has slowed to almost nothing all the old dead leaves stripped off and left it 3 days to dry out befor feeding. Made up a new res of feed ans fed twice since. Still the odd damaged leaves but better by far.
Thanks for the input every 1 im not proving or disproveing the flush theory but this time its helped keep the plant alive the rate if yellowing would have seen no leaves left so yeah plant saved this time

In some instances flushing can help if done right and for the right reasons, then again flushing may not help but hurt in some instances.

I think many are poopoo on flushing because they still look at flushing as an end harvest technique only to prove or disprove its efficacy, thats not what we are talking about, the only science I know of to 'disprove' flushing is about flavor comparisons on flushed vs non flushed end products....

 

[HashFart]

In some instances flushing can help if done right and for the right reasons, then again flushing may not help but hurt in some instances.

I think many are poopoo on flushing because they still look at flushing as an end harvest technique only to prove or disprove its efficacy, thats not what we are talking about, the only science I know of to 'disprove' flushing is about flavor comparisons on flushed vs non flushed end products....

I don't think anyone really flushes at the end anymore , good cure good flavor , I do think flushing removes old un used bottle nutes in the pot and what doesn't get removed I think the purpinator helps the plant eat it up ,,,,, I have 2 potted plants that are the same size in the same size pots ,,, the soil is dry in one but not the other , I think it's because the one plant doesn't want to eat the bottle nutes, so I'll continue feeding the one with the dry pot as normal ,,,, then flush the plant that didn't eat and continue back to feeding ,,,,, I find this thread interesting because I just learned about this first hand myself ! Awesome discussion guys

 

[MAK1]

No its not. We've had this discussion already.

Yes you do drown your soil and along with it all the microbes. Its a shame you cant wash away the nutrients that are tied to soil particles via chemistry and physics in a process known as Cation Exchange Capacity.

It's the science... Salts built up... how does that even happen and show me the science behind that and how running water thru the soil somehow miraculously washes them out.

It doesn't happen.

There's no miracles just science. The science is Cation Exchange Capacity.

If you don't believe me here's the science and a quick google will give you TONS of information.

The nutrients are ATTACHED to the soil particles via chemical bonds. Water has no charge so how does water remove a cation (nutrients) that are bonded to soil particles?

It doens't it wont it cant and it isnt. Just the facts...

Here's the science:

Primer on CEC:

AY-238

Here's your science from our local university that has a soil lab.

Now show me some science on flushing .... I'll wait.

Edit: not trying to be a douche here I'm just disagreeing with flushing.

Here's some food for thought.
IF it was a thing how come my local farmers dont go out and spread fertilizer after every rain storm?

Struggling to understand.
What is "flushing"? IDK. I have heard many different concepts of what it is trying to accomplish so there are many different way to "flush". To be flush with some thing actually means you have a lot of it. So, in this case the act of flushing is to add lots of some thang.
It is like trying to cypher Greek. Since we can't even agree what "flushing" is we can't define it. I believe we need different terms that are more descriptive of what we are actually doing or trying to accomplish. Example: to flush with Cal/Mag has protocols as to what that means. Or maybe I totally hose-up and added 3X Nitrogen and will burn my garden plants so I try a "clearing flush" prescribed as lots of yucca in fresh water @ 20% run off very 30 minutes 3 times (I just made that up).
We really need a consortium to help define a few terms. Maybe we don't but, it sure would help me.