Oh No - It's A Green Hole! - Reverse Thrusters! - Dammit - Too Late!

[SweetSue]

K deficiency is accompanied with dark spots next to the burned edges and not a lot of curling.

The "taco"/"canoe" effect is classic over-nuting and internal temps building up in older leaves first then progressing into the bud leaves. Nasty tasting buds is the end result.

L8r

The HB guys peg their tacoing to flirting with a magnesium deficiency, so they're always trying to find that razor's edge where the initial signs show, but it goes no further. I don't entirely understand the whole process (new complete novice cannabis cultivator here) but it looks nothing like that picture B A R shared.

So you're contending it's the result of over feeding? I'm new to the Kit and coming from an introduction to LOS, so parts of what I perceive happening with the Kit don't completely jibe with my idea to feed the soil and let it feed the plant. I'm just trying to understand. I perceive you have years more growing experience than I.

 

[SweetSue]

I learn new stuff here every day. Learned all about tacking today and will be trying it real soon. Always thought it was how you laid carpet or steered a sailboat in a headwind. lol



L8r

I nearly choked on my coffee laughing. The people sitting around me in the restaurant were a bit startled by the spontaneous laughter.

Ahhh... Thanks for that.

 

[Weaselcracker]

Been in the outback for a few days- it's that time of year when things are pretty busy with the hunting gathering lifestyle and we have to go out chasing food around a lot. Then deal with it all afterwards (the hard part!). Kind of the same as any harvest I suppose. . I've been smiling a lot catching up in the journal. how lovely to come home to find visits from the most favorite of my 'internet friends' (as my girl calls you)- and some new arrivals. And some great discussion going on. I love it! And welcome Glimmergrass, Kriaze, B A R, Captainblast! Wow. I'm feeling all warm and fuzzy inside.

Alright- not tons of catching up to do with the plants. A hell of a lot of catching up with 420 after a few days off- but that's another matter.

@Weasel - I like the individual pictures. I know it's more work, but they look great! You have a really nice grow man!

Thanks JoJo! I liked that too, being able to see the individual plants a little better. Especially the Mama Thai which I thought looked cool with its fluffy white flowers. I wonder what it would be like without the screen? I'm starting to long for some natural looking plants so may ditch some part of the scrog at some point, if it's practical. It is obviously good for keeping things controlled - which I need too cause I'm gone so much- but kind of overly industrial at times.

Stupid question:

You cannot attribute tacos to heat every time?

Great discussion. Thanks guys.
And re what you said about potassium deficiency, BAR, OldMed's take on it seems in line with my limited experience so far. Last spring I did have some plants that appeared a bit nute burned (who knows maybe they even were for that matter) so I kept lowering the feedings. The problem got worse and looked just like the pictures of K deficiency. Not too different from what this WW looks like- except for the slate grey/ black patches which were quite ugly. The problem wasn't going away so I flushed the plants, and that's when it became suddenly much worse. I decided to give them a full strength feeding- and that stopped the issues dead. It was business as usual after that. That was the Pineapple Chunk. The WW seems more fussy.

This WW isn't acting the same way. Flushing didn't make the plant worse. It seems to be holding steady now. Part of my confusion was based around the fact that I flushed it early on when symptoms first appeared, and it didn't seem to help much.
Now I'm of the mind that I just didn't flush it nearly enough. When I flushed it the last time, and took the ppm meter to the runoff, I saw that it took a lot of water to get that ppm down below 100.

So you're contending it's the result of over feeding?

I could be wrong about this like I say about damn near everything these days lol, so correct me anyone if you think so, but my thinking is that the plant(s) would be fine right now if I had been watering with more runoff. After this whole flushing experience I see that 10 gallons is just a large pot. If I go with 20% runoff each time- that's 2 gallons of water running out the bottom. Quite a lot, and a lot more than I've been achieving, I realize now. Though these pots aren't full- so I suppose I could call them 7 gallons. I've been getting runoff not too much different than when I was using 3 gallon pots. I think maybe if I was watering like this each time I wouldn't have trouble getting away with feeding them what I have been- which is about 70% or less of the amount listed in the Botanicare feeding schedule. Sure- that schedule may be high. But plenty of people use it as is with no problem, so I thought I shouldn't be too far off the mark here with what I've been doing....(?)
Also there's the underfeeding episode I mentioned, which I don't want to repeat either. I have to walk the line here somehow. I'll run with the runoff theory for a while unless I hear something otherwise.

Hey there Weasel!

Knew you were a bit of a dark horse - astonishing grow you've got going there and wow to the quantity. Just catching up after my time away.

Glad you got a journal going - we will all learn a lot from it.

Peace Weasel, and hugs to Weasel the younger

Thanks Bapple! It actually looks rather more glossy and generally somewhat bigger and better in the pics than it does in real life. Maybe it's the hps sunglasses I'm using for a camera filter The actual grow must be much less than what you have had going (?)

To borrow a form of measurement from UncleCannabis, my growing area would cover just over 3/4 of a sheet of plywood. Well- that's the flowering part. With veg it's a sheet and a quarter
It does seem like it may end up as a little more than I need though, unless I'm going to try to get licensed for more at some point- which I don't feel I need to. I'll whizz over and check your journal first chance I get. Your plants much be looking beautiful now.
And very curious to see what's happening with yours too CaptainBlast, speaking of outdoor growers who's climate I'm very jealous of. (Ha ha- knocking on wood after I said that, for both your sakes!)

 

[Weaselcracker]

So - not much to report with the plants. I did a bunch of flushing. The WW, Blueberry, and (again) the MT. All 3 plants are showing close to 100% cloudy trichomes. I'll take your advice to mean I should flush the plants well Oldmed- to avoid nasty tasting buds, if possible.
The MT continues to shoot out reveg style leafy foxtails. The sooner I harvest her the better I am thinking. Trichomes are generally cloudy, I couldn't find any amber and she obviously isn't going to get riper or better than she was a week ago.

The cuttings, at ten days, look like they'll be a few days yet. They're just starting to yellow up a bit at the tips now. Once they start yellowing more after burning through the available nitrogen in the foliage, is when I start seeing roots.
Looking at how the cuttings progress, I'm thinking back to my alleged underfeeding episode.
At that time I got discoloring at the tips. I was told that this is 'always indicative of nute burn', which is partly why I took the seemingly safe route of cutting back on the nutes.
But now that I think about it- these cuttings do the same thing as they run out of food. Could underfeeding and overfeeding have very similar symptoms?


The cutting in front right corner croaked, and the one directly behind it isn't going to live either. Both from the 'regular' batch.

I didn't have to do any watering. If anything, the rockwool/coco could be a little dryer than it is. I'll double check it tomorrow. I should do a little catching up - either with sleep- or with 420. Hmmmm....now what would Sue do?

 

[jojo677]

The MT continues to shoot out reveg style leafy foxtails. The sooner I harvest her the better I am thinking. Trichomes are generally cloudy, I couldn't find any amber and she obviously isn't going to get riper or better than she was a week ago.

Ah, fun with trichomes! Now to put to use all that learned knowledge about when to harvest!

As for the runoff situation with drain-to-waste setups, I always assumed that runoff should be a percentage of the amount of water you put in? So if I watered with 1 gallon, I want 20%-30% of that amount to drain off. I could be doing it wrong though..

 

[Pigeons420]

Great work my man!

Nice to have you back!

 

[Pigeons420]

Ah, fun with trichomes! Now to put to use all that learned knowledge about when to harvest!

As for the runoff situation with drain-to-waste setups, I always assumed that runoff should be a percentage of the amount of water you put in? So if I watered with 1 gallon, I want 20%-30% of that amount to drain off. I could be doing it wrong though..

You nailed it Jojo!

You do want a percentage of runoff to drain from the bottom of the pot. You want this to occur every single time you water. This allows the plant to flush out the excrement at the bottom of the pot.
I had an issue with this approach at the beginning of my growing. But quickly realized that healthy plants need to be flushed slightly every water...maybe "flush" is the wrong term here but that's what it is.
Outside in the natural elements the rain is able to wash the roots of the plant by allowing the excess water to drain through the soil and push the excrement deeper into the earth. This process does not occur inside, so it is up to the gardener to recreate this process by allowing a percentage of runoff.

Now, it's important to monitor and test the runoff weekly. Some do it daily but I test weekly. If the PPM are still the same as the PPM of the water source, then you know she's not eating and something up. If the PH is fluctuating drastically between watering and runoff chances aw she's acidic because of not enough run off.

I hope I didn't bore anyone with my little ramble there.

All the best my man!

 

[Weaselcracker]

Ah, fun with trichomes! Now to put to use all that learned knowledge about when to harvest!

As for the runoff situation with drain-to-waste setups, I always assumed that runoff should be a percentage of the amount of water you put in? So if I watered with 1 gallon, I want 20%-30% of that amount to drain off. I could be doing it wrong though..

He he. I'm sure you're right JoJo. I had a feeling something was wrong about that 20% thing when I said it 2 gallons runoff is a horrible amount of rain each week.
This maybe blows my theory away then. I'm not sure yet. I do feel like I wasn't getting nearly enough runoff. I'll keep with it for a while longer and make sure I'm getting a healthy runoff each time. Also ease up on the feedings later in flower. The problems do seem like a cumulative thing- just like salts building up in the soil. It's never individual feedings that seem to show sudden nute burn.

I'll get them dialed in. I've had a couple of these strains now, that made it all the way to the end of flower and still escaped my evil clutches in near perfect health. I should be able to repeat that with their clones.

You guys could never bore me with your rambling, it's not in your nature. Ramble on.

Now, it's important to monitor and test the runoff weekly. Some do it daily but I test weekly. If the PPM are still the same as the PPM of the water source, then you know she's not eating and something up.

I have a sort of question. Measuring ppm is a fairly new process for me- I haven't had the Bluelab meter for all that long, and didn't trust my old pen meter so just measured ml/gallon. I haven't generally been testing runoff ppm much till lately.
When I watered the WW last week I measured runoff and it was 120 ppm. The week before that I had fed it with 520 ppm. The drop, along with the fact that she was still drinking a lot of water, made me think she must still be feeding- so I fed her again at 420 ppm. This week I got 120 ppm runoff again. However- enough is enough and I'm going to limp this one to the finish line- she's had enough abuse already and I want to make sure she's flushed long and well before harvest.

Is measuring the ppm of medium runoff a reliable test of how much the plant is feeding? Does anyone use this method in soil/soilless medium like hydro growers do?
Or is it maybe just another tool in the kit? I would have to work to replicate a similar water dilution to what I had when I fed the plant. Like- watering the plant with ten gallons- then testing the runoff is obviously going to give me a more dilute solution than if I water it with three gallons. Any thoughts on this technique?

 

[Pigeons420]

When it comes to YouTube I don't follow many people. 4 people in fact that I listen to vary carefully when they speak. This guy is one of them. Jason Wilcox, he's been in this game for a long time and his show or channel Cannabis in Canada is a very insightful and informative way to get reliable and up to date information in regards to cannabis in Canada.

I find that he answers a few of your questions in this video.

 

[Weaselcracker]

I'm copying over to here a bit of talk from The Roach's journal...

You and Sue, and a lot of people actually, are making me anxious to start growing in real soil.

Good. You keep being tempted, because this CC-style soil mix we're using would simplify your life so much Weaselcracker. Think of being able to sit them on a SWICK reservoir and not having to even think about it as you travel for your work. Just think of not having to do more than water and the occasional simple tea or drench, often made with locally-sourced plant materials that can be foraged. Build a better soil, use good water, flood them with light and harvest the sweetest, most potent produce you've ever grown.

I'm telling you, my first grow I laughed at any idea of any possible deficiency. This soil mix had been perfected over years of dedicated study and application to get to where it is now. It truly is the gold standard for cannabis mixes. Clackamas Coot may be an intolerant misogamist, but he sure knows his cannabis and this soil mix is his contribution to the cause. Easy to mix, with emphasis on locally sourcing to keep costs as much under control as possible. CC wanted to free people from the nutrient market that takes advantage and overcharges for products that give you so much less than what the living microbes and worms are evolved to do for you.

Make your life easy and grow better buds. Grow in living organic soil, the way evolution intended.

Agh! I knew you would find me and stick it to me over that soil comment, Sue! It makes me feel the same way I do when I'm sleeping after being up all night and someone cracks the curtain on a bright sunny morning. Arrggh! No! It hurts It's burning me! I don't want to know! Take it awaaaaayyyyy!!
I'm stubborn enough that I have to see my peat moss/soil wonder-bread technique through to the point where I'm growing consistently perfect plants and have figured it mostly out. How bloody complicated can it be really? Which suddenly makes me wonder... Why do they call it wonder bread? I thought they meant it was wonderful - now I see the double meaning. What is it anyway? Could I grow plants in it? Probably not. Nevermind...
Mainly my grow suffers from previous years of 420-forum deprivation. I'm still dealing with some very basic issues that should be long behind me. Didn't have internet.

It occurs to me though- that I need to source the ingredients, or process the natural versions around me, which may take a while. Then that sort of soil needs to 'cook' for a while, right? And I could switch half my plants to soil. Hmmmm... Hurts a bit less now. Thanks. I'm going to copy and paste this to my journal because it's important. Thanks Roach! Thanks Sue!

 

[Weaselcracker]

When it comes to YouTube I don't follow many people. 4 people in fact that I listen to vary carefully when they speak. This guy is one of them. Jason Wilcox, he's been in this game for a long time and his show or channel Cannabis in Canada is a very insightful and informative way to get reliable and up to date information in regards to cannabis in Canada.

I find that he answers a few of your questions in this video.

Thanks Pigeons. Really looking forward to watching that. I just have to get to a wifi connection as what I'm using now won't really let me watch videos. Possibly in the next day or two though as it turns out.

 

[SweetSue]

I should do a little catching up - either with sleep- or with 420. Hmmmm....now what would Sue do?

Haha! We all know the answer to that one! Sue would be all over the threads. Sue, however, has more freedom than a den of average bears, with no employer to satisfy and no children to keep alive. That makes it easy to forgo sleep. You, my friend, should sleep.

 

[SweetSue]

The CC-style soil is not considered a hot mix and really doesn't need cooking. If you stick close to the basic recipe and don't add anything "hot" to the mix (guanosine, manures, etc.) you can plant in it immediately. The 30 day cook is more of a traditional approach that's since been disproven for this mix.

I love the way make me laugh and then keep it going. That girl of yours is a lucky woman.


EditIf you set your pots up (they're 10'gallon ones, right?) as no-tills you never have to make soil for them again. Just saying.

 

[OldMedUser]

The HB guys peg their tacoing to flirting with a magnesium deficiency, so they're always trying to find that razor's edge where the initial signs show, but it goes no further. I don't entirely understand the whole process (new complete novice cannabis cultivator here) but it looks nothing like that picture B A R shared.

So you're contending it's the result of over feeding? I'm new to the Kit and coming from an introduction to LOS, so parts of what I perceive happening with the Kit don't completely jibe with my idea to feed the soil and let it feed the plant. I'm just trying to understand. I perceive you have years more growing experience than I.

That pic that B A R shared was for a K deficiency and that's what it looks like. Low Mg will almost always start with yellowing between the veins but so do a few others. Often Deficiencies in Mg, Ca, Fe and Mn are caused by excess P and/or K so indications of that should be taken into consideration before tossing in more nutes or messing with the pH. Tacoing seems to be caused by a few things and is just one of the symptoms of heat stress/toxic salts buildup, TSB. With TSB your temps can be fine but the salts get so concentrated in the leaf tissue that they interfere with the leaf's ability to transpire water and reduce heat. Excess heat on it's own will first cause the margins of the leaves to fold upwards and then some minor tacoing. TSB basically dehydrates the leaf tissue causing necrosis and dry, crispy leaves and is most often found in later flowering when the plant is being overfed and should be relying more on taking nutrients from the older leaves causing them to yellow and go limp.

By the time TSB is getting advanced enough to damage leaves noticeably other issues are coming into play like pH problems and nutrient lockouts. Water quality plays an important role in TSB as well. Most tap water has some hardness to it and often has a TDS of 200ppm or higher. All those minerals that cause the hardness are salts and over time build up in the root zone and are taken up by the plant in excess amounts. So while you may not be giving your plants excess food, it combined with hard water is overloading the plant's ability to use them in it's growth so it stores the excess in it's leaves. Just like excess Big Macs get stored as fat and cause problems with us.

I just reduced the ppm in my DWC girl as I noticed the first signs of TSB in her leaves. I just pumped out about a third of the nutes and replaced it with RO water with a bit of Big Bud and a good dose of OverDrive. Dropped the ppm from 1100 to 650. In a week I'll remove half of what's in there and replace with water and just a half dose of OD. A couple weeks after that I expect to be chopping her a hoping all the fans are bright yellow.

L8r

 

[Weaselcracker]

That pic that B A R shared was for a K deficiency and that's what it looks like.

Oops- crap- that made me notice that when I said this-

The problem got worse and looked just like the pictures of K deficiency. Not too different from what this WW looks like- except for the slate grey/ black patches which were quite ugly

I meant to say P deficiency. Phosphorus- not K.

Always excited to see that you posted here OM. My water is rainwater at zero ppm so at least I don't have that issue. I can't argue with the diagnosis though-it make perfect sense when I look at what's in front of me. Kind of confused about how I got to this point but not worried about that. Glad to be working on this issue

 

[UncleCannabis]

I hadn't realized that you'd finally kicked off a journal. It's about time....

 

[MagicMediwana]

I didn't know it either! Hi Weaselcracker!!

 

[Weaselcracker]

Wow!
UncleC!
Magic!
Welcome!
Yay!!!!

It's because I didn't put the journal in my signature. Thought I'd just be low key and let people drift in and find me
. But no one did.
No one found me. Well, hardly anyone, and I got so lonely. Waah. Sob.
Also I was a bit worried about internet/journal security.
Still wondering about that. I'm going to PM the mods to annoy them further (sorry mods I'm forever in your debt) and see what I get.

At the moment 420 seems to have mostly tiny one or two plant personal grows so I thought having my 8 plant operation might seem out of place.
Fortunately UncleCannabis came along to point out that my flowering area is only 3/4 of a sheet of plywood. That shrunk my grow down in a hurry.
It's tiny.
Thanks UncleC

 

[MagicMediwana]

I'm so happy to be here! I have some catching up to do!

 

[B A R]

I get confused with K & P & A-z & 1, 2, 3 & whatnot. For us not too scientifically inclined folks can we type a few more letters and spell the elements? LOL