126W Penetrator LED Full Bloom

[Setting Sun]

Well, at least it stimulated some good discussion

If I wanted to increase yield, I think it would benefit me more to spend my $600 on more light as opposed to CO2, which I think is the point that guy was making with his admittedly anecdotal and unscientific experience.

I do appreciate the responses and I will check out the links.

I think air exchange is something rarely discussed when it comes to fast growth and yield. I'm exchanging the air volume in my tent over 2.5 times per minute. It's essentially an outdoor environment as far as CO2 goes. My plants love it, and it didn't cost me anything because the exhaust fan is coordinated with my cooling and odor control.

I guess if you're already running 1000w+ in a larger grow tent/room, then it would make more sense to me to seal it up and add CO2, but I don't think it's worth it for the large number of us who are growing in smaller spaces, when we can easily supply our plants with plenty of fresh CO2 for the cost of air.

your mileage may vary
batteries not included
may contain traces of nuts

 

[MeanBean]

Somehow I belive that you must have a perfect balance of air, nutrients, light , and water. but I bet i would be better off buying another light, and say f the c02. more fresh air from my house.

a. dont wanna dye doing this
b. air is free
c. can't really explain a freggin air tank getting dragged into my area lol!

For example an engine needs air, fuel and pressure for combustion. you can add more air, but without more fuel and pressure youll just be blowing smooooooooke.......

 

[WheeloFortune]

Dumb question: Once you figure how much cu ft you need, what do you set your regulator at? I'm talking about running without an expensive controller like Hydro has. (I've figured that I need 0.198 cu ft, using Smokey's formula)

yeah, like cammie said, and relating back to my earlier post,

the system is dynamic. you need that much to bring your room from ambient to 1500ppm, but how quickly it gets used depends on how big the plants are, how healthy, how much light and water and nutes they get, it all goes into how fast the plants grow.

plus how air tight is your box? some air needs to escape when you put co2 in or you will be pressurizing the box, but if there is leakage how much ppm will leak out?

Fuzzy logic is a form of multi-valued logic derived from fuzzy set theory to deal with reasoning that is approximate rather than precise, the controller cammie has not only senses the co2 levels, but it makes approximations of when to kick on to stay in a dynamic equilibrium. . . so sweet, i want one badly.

IMO, for such a small box, it is not a problem to dose it many times. . . perhaps in tandem with a vent cycle??

so you need .2 cu ft to reach 1500ppm from ambient, the lowest I can set my regulator for is about 2cfh. .2cu ft would be 1/10 of that so 6 minutes on my lowest flow rate. so if you had a timer that could go for 6 minutes, you could dose it once an hour, and run a vent fan for 5 minutes right before that. then you start from scratch each time and get to 1500 ppm. a 20# tank would last you months. obviously only dose when the lights are on.

other than that, gotta get a meter.

here is a $130 meter

CO2 Meter - Desktop CO2 Meter Data Logger Sale - Monitor product by SenseLife

 

[WheeloFortune]

Well, at least it stimulated some good discussion
....

the only thing i say to that is extra light = extra electricity, extra co2 = possible extra 40-50% yield with minimal extra electricity. . .

you aint outdoors anymore SS my friend. welcome to the money pit.

 

[MeanBean]

I'd like to test the ppm of the air naturally. is there a device for this or does someone know the average c02 content of natural air?

 

[Setting Sun]

the only thing i say to that is extra light = extra electricity, extra co2 = possible extra 40-50% yield with minimal extra electricity. . .

you aint outdoors anymore SS my friend. welcome to the money pit.

this discussion has come full circle, because this is an LED thread, and so more light does not necessarily mean more electricity. LED light prices will be coming down also as they become more popular, which looks likely. In fact, I hope to soon be replacing my 250w HID with a lower watt LED if they perform better (or even similarly) at lower wattage and cost.

Is that 40-50% yield increase under ideal lab conditions or in the real world of low-end gear, leaky closets, often questionable measurements, and funky schedules?

I'd like to test the ppm of the air naturally. is there a device for this or does someone know the average c02 content of natural air?

300 ppm or thereabouts

 

[Bolivar]

yeah, like cammie said, and relating back to my earlier post,

the system is dynamic. you need that much to bring your room from ambient to 1500ppm, but how quickly it gets used depends on how big the plants are, how healthy, how much light and water and nutes they get, it all goes into how fast the plants grow.

plus how air tight is your box? some air needs to escape when you put co2 in or you will be pressurizing the box, but if there is leakage how much ppm will leak out?

Fuzzy logic is a form of multi-valued logic derived from fuzzy set theory to deal with reasoning that is approximate rather than precise, the controller cammie has not only senses the co2 levels, but it makes approximations of when to kick on to stay in a dynamic equilibrium. . . so sweet, i want one badly.

IMO, for such a small box, it is not a problem to dose it many times. . . perhaps in tandem with a vent cycle??

so you need .2 cu ft to reach 1500ppm from ambient, the lowest I can set my regulator for is about 2cfh. .2cu ft would be 1/10 of that so 6 minutes on my lowest flow rate. so if you had a timer that could go for 6 minutes, you could dose it once an hour, and run a vent fan for 5 minutes right before that. then you start from scratch each time and get to 1500 ppm. a 20# tank would last you months. obviously only dose when the lights are on.

other than that, gotta get a meter.

here is a $130 meter

CO2 Meter - Desktop CO2 Meter Data Logger Sale - Monitor product by SenseLife

Thanks for the explanation. I was leaning toward ignoring CO2 for now, but now I'm thinking I can get the tank and regulator, then get the controller a month later when I can fit it into the budget. I'm thinking I could just wing it until I get a controller hooked up, which would be more beneficial than just waiting to get the whole set up later. And if Cammie can run her temps that high using CO2, that's going to help me out next summer. (I've got a DarkRoom150, and it'll heat up pretty quickly in summer, I'm sure. The CO2 would mean less A/C usage.)

And just to keep on topic, I hope to have 3 or 4 163W Penetrators by Spring, so that'll be even more heat savings.

 

[HydroGrowLED]

95F? no problems? I need to start readinhg your stuff more closely. My plants stall at 90F

They've been between 90-98 degrees during the day time for the majority of the bloom cycle without CO2 (and the temp sensor is at the canopy). LED's don't drain the water from the plant. The plants haven't stressed due to heat at all. Only stress was a bit of nutes in the beginning.

 

[HydroGrowLED]

Is that 40-50% yield increase under ideal lab conditions or in the real world

That was a real world study done over 6 years. Like I said, it makes for an interesting read.

 

[scumbragger]

I'd like to test the ppm of the air naturally. is there a device for this or does someone know the average c02 content of natural air?

385ppm and rising.....

 

[Bolivar]

385ppm and rising.....

They'll be growing mangoes in Scotland soon...

 

[Setting Sun]

Thanks.

still anyone know about how often the air should be replaced in your room per plant yadayadayada?

I've read from once every five minutes to twice per minute.

Of course, a grow room stuffed full of plants is going to have different requirements than one or two plants with elbow room.

It's not that difficult to achieve once per minute or more with smaller spaces like grow tents, cabs and small closets.

 

[Keith Lake]

will c02 make me pass out er somthing?

asphyxiation can result if so much CO2 is used that it displaces all the oxygen. At the levels needed/used for plant growth augmentation this isn't an issue unless you have equipment failure.

I believe they make O2 anc Co2 alarms

 

[MeanBean]

See I would wanna do CO2 a little diffrently than hgl explained, however I know very little about it and I need some calculations to see if its even worth it.

It could be a NEW idea so people will prolly shoot it down...

This is what i wanna get to the bottom of, to put in my urban growing thread:

So if you grow in a box or small space you must vent.

most of the time its right into the rooms you live in. Soo exuasted dangerous levels is no good. Also you would have to have small tanks in case of failure so you don't cause yourself injury.

If you must vent the whole time you got the lights on you aint gettin co2 in a gbox.

But what if you only vented evey 15 maybe even 30?

Can we calculate out an approximate dosage per plant per 15 - 30 min session between ventings??

For example lets say a plant uses 4 parts of c02 per 15 mins.

So if I had 2 plants in a gbox for 15 mins I would need 8 parts. then you really wouldent be wasting much plus you woulent asphyxiate yourself... If you kept this ratio close you could just a vent for 15 mins, then have a timer release the co2 for a few secs, All the c02 them plants need for 15mins. then after the 15, the air is completely replaced and a new dose is injected into the fresh air with hardely any co2 remaining in the exuast air....


Any thoughts?

 

[Bolivar]

See I would wanna do CO2 a little diffrently than hgl explained, however I know very little about it and I need some calculations to see if its even worth it.

It could be a NEW idea so people will prolly shoot it down...

This is what i wanna get to the bottom of, to put in my urban growing thread:

So if you grow in a box or small space you must vent.

most of the time its right into the rooms you live in. Soo exuasted dangerous levels is no good. Also you would have to have small tanks in case of failure so you don't cause yourself injury.

If you must vent the whole time you got the lights on you aint gettin co2 in a gbox.

But what if you only vented evey 15 maybe even 30?

Can we calculate out an approximate dosage per plant per 15 - 30 min session between ventings??

For example lets say a plant uses 4 parts of c02 per 15 mins.

So if I had 2 plants in a gbox for 15 mins I would need 8 parts. then you really wouldent be wasting much plus you woulent asphyxiate yourself... If you kept this ratio close you could just a vent for 15 mins, then have a timer release the co2 for a few secs, All the c02 them plants need for 15mins. then after the 15, the air is completely replaced and a new dose is injected into the fresh air with hardely any co2 remaining in the exuast air....


Any thoughts?

I think you might be confusing CO2 (carbon dioxide) with CO (carbon monoxide), as far as the danger goes. You're not going to kill yourself with CO2. You can function in air with 20,000-30,000 ppm CO2, and you'll feel symptoms (and taste the CO2) long before you go unconscious. The one thing you'll notice is that your heart rate goes way up.
CO, on the other hand will kill you within a couple of hours at concentrations of only 1200-1600 ppm.

 

[MeanBean]

yea, i dunno...

 

[420hydro]

ever consider connecting the C02 directly to the hydro airstone lines??

The air would hit the roots then come up through the hydro stones right under the canopy into the plant air holes

Air holes is not the technical term...

Bean,

I see this question in many forums.

1. Plants need oxygen at the roots - CO2 at the leaves.

2. CO2 is heavier than Air. CO2 flows downhill. The only way to get it up higher is with a fan...

Just a little reminder....

 

[dionysius]

the attitude seed bank. 3 free strains! La woman looks nice, but there's a lot to choose from!

cheese!!!

 

[scumbragger]

Just looking out for the recreational grower....LOL

A wiser person then I told me this example is possible but only feasible if LED’s work as claimed:
2 x 600 w cooled HID w/electronic ballast cost approx $1800 + $400 for veg and clone lights (400w mh for moms and some floru’s for clones)
On 4 x 8 table continuous grow over a year is 5 bud cycles (5x 10wks)
All together having to run average of approx 1500w/hr over 24hrs (lights,pump, exhaust,heating,cooling,keep in mind this is 4 season climate)
Anyways the cost works out to approx. $1600/yr for the entire cycle (veg+bud) for what 12p’s (2 ½p x 5bud cycles).
Bulbs $100+ must replace every year.


Now if you have to use the same amount of watt in LED’s to produce the same 17p’s there is hardly any savings not to mention the doubled cost of the 2000w of LED’s $4000- $1400+ (2 x 7yrs) for HID replacement costs.

If they worked as claimed then you’re talking $2000 for 504w of LED lights + $500 for LED light + fluro’s ( LED panel for moms + fluro’s veg and cloning)
But you would only be using approx 425w/hr for a cost of $550/ year.
And no bulb replacement for hopefully 7yrs but you know how that goes…LOL
Costs would increase slightly in the winter.

If you were really an environmentalist or just a security conscious individual ;-) and decided to turn some of your crop into another renewable source like some solar panels to get completely off the grid, then to run 425w/hr is approx. 2p’s .

GTe .7

Sure you can always give up a few more p’s to do it with HID’s and all but then again someone is going to wonder why you have 25 solar panels outside your shed…LOL

 

[HydroGrowLED]

2 x 600 w cooled HID w/electronic ballast...

(3 ½p x 5bud cycles).

1.30 grams per watt with 2, 600W HPS lights on a 4' x 8' table? And doing that consistently every harvest? I'd love to meet the guy. I haven't met a beginning or novice grower that produced those kinds of numbers with HID...