2nd Grow: Blue Cookies & Sour Jack In FFOF & HF

[Jajunk]

I say it over and over again... in soil the sweet spot is 6.3 pH, and at that higher level with a strong upward soil drift, you could be missing out entirely on minerals that are more mobile at the lower end of the range. If you nutrients are in line and should be there, this would be the next thing to check, especially in FF nutes and FF soil. Also, potassium is a hard one to read because excesses can also look ugly, and this along with the pH thing might be what the problem is. You are feeding with each watering, and if you look at the FF feeding recommendations you are definitely over doing it.... they recommend Feed/water/feed/water... always alternating so that you dont overload the soil with unused nutrients. Less is more as they say... or at least don't exceed what FF recommends.

Well, from the vast number of sources I've read, the jury is out still on the optimal pH range. Some say 6.0-6.5, others say 6.5-7.0, while most agree that 6.0-7.0 is typically ok for cannabis. I shoot for around 6.5 with my pH, sometimes it's a little lower and sometimes a little higher.. The sweetspot for most nutrients, again according to the vast sources I've read is 6.5.. except manganese, iron, boron, and a few others. Studies have shown that cannabis can uptake iron and manganese even at higher pH. This is a very recent article from NCSU: New Research Results: Optimal pH for Cannabis Note the article mostly pertains to soil-less and they recommend 6.2-6.7 for soil.

The FF Trio schedule says feed two times per week... which is about what I'm getting to at four days between feeding. I haven't seen anywhere where they recommend feeding every other watering. They do recommend a flush here and there, so if things don't improve with the BC, I will most likely flush it. As I've stated before, the BC is very finicky, but adapts quickly. The SJs are showing no signs that the BC is.

 

[Emilya Green]

Well, not sure what you are reading, but I have been in this growing weed business all of my adult and part of my teen age life, and only recently has there been a trend to recommend 6.5 as the optimum pH in soil. Up until recently, everyone knew that mathematically the point that the most minerals were the most mobile is 6.3 pH. Most DO NOT agree that 6.0-7.0 is typically ok for cannabis, and the vast majority of the people having problems with their grow have made this mistake and find an end to their problems when we convince them that properly adjusting the pH is super important. If you are working with a normal commercial soil, the base pH is buffered to around 6.7-6.8. This is done on purpose, so that you can water at 6.3 pH and then as the soil dries out it drifts upward toward the base pH, taking your plants through the entire usable range of 6.2-6.8. This is how it has always worked, and citing an article referring to uptake in soilless mediums has nothing to do with this conversation about soil.
Regarding the FF schedule... you need to check your assumptions. I ran FF soil and nutrients for many years and know exactly what I am talking about. Here is a quick screen shot of the FF instructions, which clearly say to feed/water/feed/water... feeding every other watering. It also says twice a week, but that probably pertains to people in flower who are watering at least every other day.

 

[Jajunk]

Well, not sure what you are reading, but I have been in this growing weed business all of my adult and part of my teen age life, and only recently has there been a trend to recommend 6.5 as the optimum pH in soil. Up until recently, everyone knew that mathematically the point that the most minerals were the most mobile is 6.3 pH. Most DO NOT agree that 6.0-7.0 is typically ok for cannabis, and the vast majority of the people having problems with their grow have made this mistake and find an end to their problems when we convince them that properly adjusting the pH is super important. If you are working with a normal commercial soil, the base pH is buffered to around 6.7-6.8. This is done on purpose, so that you can water at 6.3 pH and then as the soil dries out it drifts upward toward the base pH, taking your plants through the entire usable range of 6.2-6.8. This is how it has always worked, and citing an article referring to uptake in soilless mediums has nothing to do with this conversation about soil.
Regarding the FF schedule... you need to check your assumptions. I ran FF soil and nutrients for many years and know exactly what I am talking about. Here is a quick screen shot of the FF instructions, which clearly say to feed/water/feed/water... feeding every other watering. It also says twice a week, but that probably pertains to people in flower who are watering at least every other day.

Not going to split hairs with ya, and I appreciate the advice. But I tend to lean on the empirical data from studies that I've read over anecdotal evidence. The SJs are not showing any signs or symptoms of nutrient lock, deficiency, etc. Which tells me something special is going on with the BC, or as I stated, it's just a super finicky plant. Fox Farm Ocean Forest is adjusted from 6.3-6.8, and this far in, won't matter anyway. Having a pH of 6.3 vs 6.40 wouldn't make that much of a difference as far as micronutrient uptake is concerned, considering the pH ranges for most. I'd rather err on the side of a slightly higher pH than lower, as lower is what mainly causes toxicities, until > 7.0. There is no sign of interveinal chlorosis on new leaves, only bronzing and curling on older fan leaves.

That previous study I linked it a great one.. as it explains a recent study (March 2009) on pH for soil or soilless (there's been enough studies to know that it's acceptable to adjust soilless to soil by +0.5 pH so the article is relevant to both).

This is from Cornell, just one of many sources stating 6.5 is optimal in soil for pretty much every plant: Certified Crop Advisor study resources (Northeast region). It's not the only one and from what I've read (also demonstrated in the NCSU study), cannabis is a lot more tolerable to pH then many other plants. I just don't see pH being the issue. Though again, I will certainly keep it in consideration for a solution if it continues.

I'm not sure where you got that schedule but this is the actual FF schedule from their website: Feeding Schedules - Language Sorted - FoxFarm Soil & Fertilizer Company There is no mention of every other water, an obvious change to the one you linked.. so they are getting a call Monday (they are closed now) to clarify. They need to state every other watering, however, they don't. My plants aren't needing watering but 4-5 days right now, and most my girls are loving the feed each time.

The BC is putting on weight and height much faster than the SJs... I think she's hungry, and I'm going to keep feeding her until she screams at me.

 

[Emilya Green]

Keep researching. I commend you on your work so far, but keep in mind that the Cornwell study was done in 2010 and we have learned a lot about growing a weed since then. You will find after you have grown a few plants that pH in a closed container synthetic grow is critically important, but you will have to learn that by experience as there is no better teacher. As far as the feeding schedule, it is a Fox Farms produced pdf from their website that I got that screen shot from... and there it is in living color that they do in fact recommend watering with nutes every OTHER time. I have no incentive to lie to you and try to produce a phony document to prove what I say... it is right there for you to see, and that is why I took the time to do a search for and take a screen shot of that for you.
So good luck in your grow and I hope it goes well for you, but as time goes on, if problems develop I want you to remember this conversation.
Contradictions do not exist. Whenever you think you are facing a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong. ~~~Ayn Rand

 

[Jajunk]

Just to update after speaking with the Fox Farm rep.. they did change the wording on the feeding schedule in March this year due to, as Emilya said, people in more arid climates needing to water more (like once or twice a day in his words). I think the new wording is a little too ambiguous, but I guess they assume some experience. He also said my schedule of feeding/watering basically every 4-5 days shouldn't be an issue but recommends to flush on schedule, which I am just about due. So, I'm going to flush all of them to keep with their recommended schedules and hope that helps. I haven't seen any additional bronzing/curling with the last feed/water.

 

[Jajunk]

Update: Flushed with pH'd water.. a few days later, BC was worse and even the SJs started showing signs of deficiency. The BC's newer sugar leaves started showing signs. I went back to my regular nute schedule and think I should've stuck with my gut. I think if anything, the BC was under fed each watering and I plan to increase the volume given each time. They were getting about a gallon a piece.

BC: Signs of deficiency worse after flush

SJ5 showing signs of deficiency after flush:

From left to right: SJ4, BC3, SJ5

SJ4 closeup:

SJ5 close up:

BC3 close up:

Happy 4th!

 

[Jajunk]

SJs are fattening up quickly. I think I have a control on the deficiency problem. Trichomes are starting to look a bit cloudy, but still more to form. Even saw one or two ambers on the BC, but she's my night-time meds anyway. Pistils are still very white on all plants. I think the BC will probably harvest earlier than the SJs.. both say 9 weeks according to CK, but I think the same happened my last grow and I let the BCs go too long.

BC3: such sad looking leaves , pretty fat, healthly looking buds though.

SJ4:

SJ5:

BC3 trichs:

SJ5 trichs:

 

[Jajunk]

Still rolling, almost at the end of 6 weeks since switching to flower. Debating on when to start with just pH'd water. I think the BC is going to need it sooner. A little interesting side note, the bud that broke off SJ4 didn't make it, but I put it in a cup of water on my window ledge, because, why not. It was on there staying alive for a few weeks, then, the thing sprouted roots... crazy little plant. I'm assuming you can't clone from flowering plants? I put it in FFOF, because, why not.

 

[Emilya Green]

why switch to just pH adjusted water? First off, if there were no more nutes then there is no more need to pH. Second, why not just do a proper flush with 3x the container size in water to clear the salts out of there, and then just continue on with strong finishing nutes? You do want big buds at the end don't you, so don't starve them at the end, just when they are growing the fastest.

 

[Jajunk]

why switch to just pH adjusted water? First off, if there were no more nutes then there is no more need to pH. Second, why not just do a proper flush with 3x the container size in water to clear the salts out of there, and then just continue on with strong finishing nutes? You do want big buds at the end don't you, so don't starve them at the end, just when they are growing the fastest.

Only going on what I've read online and several journals, it sounds like many give at least the last week (some even 10 days) of only water (I don't have the answer to why pH'd, I guess to be consistent with what they've been receiving and not to shock?), with the thought being it will flush the salts, give it time to use up any that weren't flushed, and if they need it, take from fans leaves that are going to be trimmed anyway. All apparently having to do really with just flavor/harshness, which I guess can be addressed during the cure anyway. I will probably just keep to the FF schedule, which calls for a flush again soon and then dropping the Tiger down to 1 Tsp/gal. But, there's still the issue of the BC, I'm not sure she's going to make it to 8 weeks.. she's already showing a good amount of amber (CK says 9, but I don't believe that).

 

[Jajunk]

Speaking of taste/flavor, anyone use molasses? One of those things again that seems all anecdotal...

 

[Emilya Green]

Going by what you read online can sometimes not be the best thing to do. I could point you to 10 threads right now that tell you to never flush, and they will sound very credible too.
As time goes by we get better and better at growing this weed, mainly because so many of us are now able to compare notes online, and we have learned quite a bit since the '70s when the first books started coming out about how to grow pot. You hear that pot is stronger these days... well that is part of the reason; we simply know more about what this plant needs than we used to.
We actually are right on the cutting edge of this increase in knowledge because of all the legalization going on around the world is allowing more and more people to grow and experiment. Pot has been growing in and around my house since I was born. I actively started helping in my teens, and I am about to turn 41. I have been doing this a long time, but even now, I am changing my opinions about various aspects of growing this weed, and flushing is one of those things that recently has gotten a lot of my attention and where I have changed a long time opinion about water only at the end, because several years ago I went to organic soil growing... and we don't flush. I wanted to understand why it was so critical to flush however in a Fox Farm grow, but not in an organic soil with all the nutrients available 24/7, and I have been studying this quite intently for some time now.
We now know that the flavor of the final buds is not affected by the nutes that may or may not still be in the plant's system at the time of harvest. So why was the old school advice that we flush at the end? Where exactly was that end point that we flushed at?
Part of the confusion came about when about a year or so ago, the term "flush" began to change in meaning. Someone out there had taken the old idea of a 3x the container size flush out of the salt, contaminants and left over nutes and decided that at the end it would just be easier to give nothing but water, attempting to flush out the plants themselves, forgetting about the soil. A few experimental grows where I did exactly that proved that all I ended up doing at the end by giving nothing but water, was starving my plants. They did tend to fade out and finish faster, but were they bigger and better and of better quality than a plant that was not starved? Logic demands that this could not be so, and it was not.
So if you allow me the argument that starving your plants at the end isn't the optimum method to grow quality weed, what is our alternative? The FoxFarm feeding schedule calls for a final flush somewhere at the end, but they are quite vague about it on that chart because is that chart for a 7 week plant, or a 14 week plant? All they advise is to repeat the last week till the end, but no real clue where or why that last flush occurs.
I put a lot of study into this and I think I can tell you when and how best to do this. I have been giving this advice for several months now as I realized some of the mistakes I have made in the past, and I am staking my reputation on my current advice on flushing just as I do with my other watering advice.

Our weed stretches twice... once at the beginning of bloom and once at the end of bloom. During that last 2 weeks your buds can and often do double or more in size. I call this "bud-stretch." This last two weeks is the time of maximum uptake into the plant... it can't do what it wants to do without fuel. It needs to suck up more water and more nutrients at this point in the grow than ever before, if it is going to reach its full potential. I now believe that many people who skip this step lose 5-10% of their potential yield.
By the time you have arrived at bud-stretch, you have been throwing everything but the kitchen sink at your plants. All nute programs maximize the nute load weeks 4-7, and because of this constant heavy feeding since the last flush going into flower, a lot of salt has built up along with other debris. Salt restricts water uptake. Even if accumulated salt only restricts 2% of the water that could have been sucked up, that is less available to your stretching buds. Large salt accumulations can result in a lot more than 2% being restricted though... I have seen plants shut down at this point the salt load is so high.
It makes sense to clean out your medium right before you get to bud-stretch, so as to not hinder your plants at all... not even 2%. Since we know that the buds do not pick up tastes from nutes and anything left is totally eliminated in the cure, there is no longer any reason not to resume full nutes after this final flush, right up to the end, of course in soil alternating each time between nutes and pH adjusted water. I would also add finishing nutes at this point in addition to what is already going in, making sure that your P load is where it needs to be to develop more resin.

There is a lot of bad information out there. There is also a lot of information out there being promoted by old growers who are not up on all the current trends and methods. There is what we call bro-science advice that is rampant around the various forums, that includes all the modern myths, such as this 2 week flush. It is your job to find the truth if you can, and experiment on your own to test everything that you hear. Once in awhile you can find someone whose advice seems solid and well thought out, and you just have to weigh what is said with your own logic and experience. If someone has a better way to explain the final flush than what I have just done here for you here, I really would like to read it.

 

[Jajunk]

Thanks, and I definitely take your advice. The problem with being a newbie, is filtering through the VAST amounts of info that's out there now, deciding what is junk or not. I, probably obvious by now, am in the realm of science (professionally and was raised that way) and am used to dealing with empirical data, day in day out.. luckily I think there will be a lot more of that to come with legalization etc.. So out of curiosity, what's our take on FF's schedule saying drop Tiger down and completely get rid of Grow Big near the end? If the taste was all people were worried about for the nutes near the end, it sounds like you're saying keep on the full regiment.

At this point, I agree with a lot is going to have to be me learning from just experience... that's why I have a spreadsheet for each grow.

 

[Emilya Green]

Thanks, and I definitely take your advice. The problem with being a newbie, is filtering through the VAST amounts of info that's out there now, deciding what is junk or not. I, probably obvious by now, am in the realm of science (professionally and was raised that way) and am used to dealing with empirical data, day in day out.. luckily I think there will be a lot more of that to come with legalization etc.. So out of curiosity, what's our take on FF's schedule saying drop Tiger down and completely get rid of Grow Big near the end? If the taste was all people were worried about for the nutes near the end, it sounds like you're saying keep on the full regiment.

At this point, I agree with a lot is going to have to be me learning from just experience... that's why I have a spreadsheet for each grow.

I consider that I come at this thing as a scientist and I am glad that my logical way of explaining this resounded in you. You are right, the more legalization occurs, the more talented growers and writers will appear to teach us more and more about this. I like to think that I am on the vanguard of that movement.
Toward the end there is very little need for nitrogen. The buds are grown near the end and oils and resin are being produced instead. It is totally appropriate to stop the use of Grow Big in flower and indeed years ago the FF schedule did not include Grow Big after week 5... but we have learned a little more since then. Bro science tells us that it is taste we are worried about, yet we now know that is not true... An organic grow with 24/7 full time nutrients available to the plant, we get some of the sweetest and best tasting pot grown. I am starting to think that we can taste a lack of certain nutes, where some yet unknown process fails to occur in the undernourished bud.
So no, don't keep on the full regiment of FF at the end of the schedule... just repeat that last week over and over, and even add Terpinator or any other finishing nutes to what you are doing now... in the FF system, even though you are told to drop the Tiger Bloom a bit, keep that Cha-Ching coming!

 

[BigD13]

Going by what you read online can sometimes not be the best thing to do. I could point you to 10 threads right now that tell you to never flush, and they will sound very credible too.
As time goes by we get better and better at growing this weed, mainly because so many of us are now able to compare notes online, and we have learned quite a bit since the '70s when the first books started coming out about how to grow pot. You hear that pot is stronger these days... well that is part of the reason; we simply know more about what this plant needs than we used to.
We actually are right on the cutting edge of this increase in knowledge because of all the legalization going on around the world is allowing more and more people to grow and experiment. Pot has been growing in and around my house since I was born. I actively started helping in my teens, and I am about to turn 41. I have been doing this a long time, but even now, I am changing my opinions about various aspects of growing this weed, and flushing is one of those things that recently has gotten a lot of my attention and where I have changed a long time opinion about water only at the end, because several years ago I went to organic soil growing... and we don't flush. I wanted to understand why it was so critical to flush however in a Fox Farm grow, but not in an organic soil with all the nutrients available 24/7, and I have been studying this quite intently for some time now.
We now know that the flavor of the final buds is not affected by the nutes that may or may not still be in the plant's system at the time of harvest. So why was the old school advice that we flush at the end? Where exactly was that end point that we flushed at?
Part of the confusion came about when about a year or so ago, the term "flush" began to change in meaning. Someone out there had taken the old idea of a 3x the container size flush out of the salt, contaminants and left over nutes and decided that at the end it would just be easier to give nothing but water, attempting to flush out the plants themselves, forgetting about the soil. A few experimental grows where I did exactly that proved that all I ended up doing at the end by giving nothing but water, was starving my plants. They did tend to fade out and finish faster, but were they bigger and better and of better quality than a plant that was not starved? Logic demands that this could not be so, and it was not.
So if you allow me the argument that starving your plants at the end isn't the optimum method to grow quality weed, what is our alternative? The FoxFarm feeding schedule calls for a final flush somewhere at the end, but they are quite vague about it on that chart because is that chart for a 7 week plant, or a 14 week plant? All they advise is to repeat the last week till the end, but no real clue where or why that last flush occurs.
I put a lot of study into this and I think I can tell you when and how best to do this. I have been giving this advice for several months now as I realized some of the mistakes I have made in the past, and I am staking my reputation on my current advice on flushing just as I do with my other watering advice.

Our weed stretches twice... once at the beginning of bloom and once at the end of bloom. During that last 2 weeks your buds can and often do double or more in size. I call this "bud-stretch." This last two weeks is the time of maximum uptake into the plant... it can't do what it wants to do without fuel. It needs to suck up more water and more nutrients at this point in the grow than ever before, if it is going to reach its full potential. I now believe that many people who skip this step lose 5-10% of their potential yield.
By the time you have arrived at bud-stretch, you have been throwing everything but the kitchen sink at your plants. All nute programs maximize the nute load weeks 4-7, and because of this constant heavy feeding since the last flush going into flower, a lot of salt has built up along with other debris. Salt restricts water uptake. Even if accumulated salt only restricts 2% of the water that could have been sucked up, that is less available to your stretching buds. Large salt accumulations can result in a lot more than 2% being restricted though... I have seen plants shut down at this point the salt load is so high.
It makes sense to clean out your medium right before you get to bud-stretch, so as to not hinder your plants at all... not even 2%. Since we know that the buds do not pick up tastes from nutes and anything left is totally eliminated in the cure, there is no longer any reason not to resume full nutes after this final flush, right up to the end, of course in soil alternating each time between nutes and pH adjusted water. I would also add finishing nutes at this point in addition to what is already going in, making sure that your P load is where it needs to be to develop more resin.

There is a lot of bad information out there. There is also a lot of information out there being promoted by old growers who are not up on all the current trends and methods. There is what we call bro-science advice that is rampant around the various forums, that includes all the modern myths, such as this 2 week flush. It is your job to find the truth if you can, and experiment on your own to test everything that you hear. Once in awhile you can find someone whose advice seems solid and well thought out, and you just have to weigh what is said with your own logic and experience. If someone has a better way to explain the final flush than what I have just done here for you here, I really would like to read it.

@Emilya Most excellent! Thank you for this well thought out and articulate response.

 

[Jajunk]

At the end of Week 6 today. BC3 ain't pretty, but she's holding in there and still has some new sugar leaves coming in that are looking good. The SJs look gorgeous, frosty as hell and nice (relatively) fat buds. Their pistils are just starting to turn but still mainly white. I did see a few amber trichs on both on them, most are cloudy though with a few clear; I'd say 5%, 60-65%, 30-35%, respectively.

The BC definitely has a good amount of amber trichs (maybe 10-15%) and more brown pistils.

Now I'm starting to wonder about when to harvest. As I said, I think the BC is going to be ready early.. I've typically used my grow tent to dry as I have the filter in there and can control humidity, temp, etc easier. If I harvest the BC early, or do several harvests on the SJs, I'm not sure what I will do. I may let the BC go for a bit and really just go by when the SJs are ready.

Left to right: SJ4, SJ5, BC3:

 

[Jajunk]

Almost done with Week 7, I gave them all a final, small trim... well, the BC I gave a "Schwazzing" because of all the bronzed leaves unfortunately, but she's still hanging in there and I haven't seen really any new bronzing. I still think she'll be ready to harvest in the next few days, but I'll let her go until I see enough ambers or more signs of bronzing. I also started them on 6 Tsps of Sugar Daddy each feeding.

The SJs still have a good amount of white pistils and clear trichs, so they may make the 9 weeks that CK lists them as...

Left to Right: SJ5, BC3 (Bottom), SJ4:

BC3

SJ4:

SJ5 :

 

[Jajunk]

Well, I ended up harvesting the Blue Cookie. She was ready with a good amount of amber triches and most of her pistils browned. Wasn't too bad of a harvest but definitely much different from the last grow. She was a problem child through the grow, but hopefully she'll still produce some nice smoke. Had to make a box drier for her since the SJs probably still have a few days. SJ5 looks pretty ready, but SJ4 still needs some time I think. I may harvest them in the next few days either way and see how different they smoke.

BC3 before wet trim:

Largest bud off BC3:

The haul in drying box:

Left to right: SJ4, SJ5:

 

[Backlipslide]

 

[Jajunk]

Harvested both SJ5 and SJ4 this weekend. All and all I was very pleased with them. Super frosty and some nice weight. I actually think I got the most weight out of SJ4, several very nice sized colas 7 inches or longer. SJ5 had a considerable increase in amber trichomes so it will be interesting to see how they compare. SJ4 probably could've gone a few more days, but all of her trichomes were cloudy with a few ambers, so I wanted to compare to SJ5 as far as the high. Her pistils were about 40/60 brown and white, respectively, though they look very white in the photos. Anyway, Grow #2 in the books. Looking now to figure out what I want to do for #3. I will probably be growing the SJ at least once more. I think I'm also going to try at least one plant in coco.

SJ5 before wet trim:

SJ5 frosty:

Largest cola off SJ5:

SJ4 before wet trim:

Largest cola off SJ4, were 4-5 around this size:

Another fatty:

End products in drying box, I put it in the grow tent to help regulate smell and climate:

Thanks to all that followed and helped.