Decoding The Holy Grail: Terpene & Cannabinoid Retention: Decarb to Extraction

Kicknitup1 said:
RE: Nova

All said about CS & QC is what I heard also. So far mine is fine. ?? 6-9 months. It's worth it to me for the consistency & convenience.
Click to expand...

Ran across one individual that had used his 40+ times when it crapped out. He had no remorse and still felt it was money well spent. His justification was the fact that he was confident that the greater conversion rate offered by the nova over conventional decarb methods gave him more potent bud and allowed him to stretch it farther.
 
Ruffhouse Studios.

Sometimes I think he knows a lot and sometimes I seriously wonder. I watched this video on Caramels. Looks good BTW. I disagree with a lot of his methods in other videos. And, I don't think he has anything close to "best practices". But, he did make ONE statement in the video that touches on our present dilemma. He did a 2 step infusion (Oldbear); the second round with fresh oil (butter here). Then he mixes the two together. Fine. He said " the solvent loses it's aggressiveness" Well apparently it does. But why???. As I mentioned before, is oil like the last 15% of thc clinging desperately to the plant structure? Not a perfect analogy. I may have said it better the first time. The point being, maybe in the fatty chain not all MCTs are created equally so to speak. Or, there are areas that are just not as easy to access. The question is, How do we overcome it. I keep saying agitation. White space coming.

Anyway, He did this with half bud & half hash. Still fine. I often boost mine with BHO. He decarbed the bud but not the hash. I am not aware of hash being predecarbed but I haven't seen any since the 80's. lol. Unless someone pipes up and sets me straight (please do), I would refine that part. But buying the premade caramel certainly saves a lot of heat problems. I will be doing my version of this when I get time. Link below.

But if Im right about the hash, this is another of zillions of highly publicized methods that send people down the wrong path. He got a nice tcheck reading but tcheck does not know thca from thc...yet.

YouTube
 
Kicknitup1 said:
Hey Canyon!. Everything ok in your world? Haven't heard from you lately.
Click to expand...

Last time I checked, I was still breathing.

I am back from Albuquerque. I don’t have a lot of down time when I am up there. I always take a laptop, but I seldom turn it on. I don’t have email on it or Excel. When I was living out of a suitcase for long stretches, I would go for weeks without turning on a TV. Old habits in a new world, I suppose.

Tuesday, the first stop was SH Labs. There was another customer there just finishing up and one waiting. Most of the times I have been there, it would be just me. The next guy had six or eight bags with one bud in each. While the tech was logging his order in, the conversation turned to gossip. Most of it was around dispensaries, who was doing what and which one was the ex sheriff or was there two. I learned a little about why some of the dispensaries require you to reregister at a satellite location under the same name and some don't. The guy knew a hell of a lot more than I did. Even so, the guy ask if he could pay with a personal credit card.

Oh, the test. The sample looked bad. The last two grams of decarbed bud that the bigger buds had been pilfered from rolling around in a half pint jar is an embarrassing sample to drop off. The tests should be finished tomorrow, maybe today. There have been delays in the past. I decided on a standard cannabinoid and the extended terpene tests. There is not much to be gained with the extended cannabinoid test and the standard one saved twenty dollars.

These tests are on me. That leaves one extended terpene test we can use in the future.

Off topic,
The follow up appointment for my wife's knee went will with no waiting. (WTF) The short version is, “You are doing great. Come back in six weeks.” We can do that.

[;>)Thanks
 
Glad things are going well with the knee. Life sucks when the knee hurts.

I found this article yesterday. That's one easy way to maximize cannabinoid and terpene intake. I will need to do more research on ingesting THCa and CBDa and understanding the medicinal properties of same.

>The Therapeutic And Dietary Benefits of Eating Raw Cannabis

Move over kale and spinach, marijuana is the new superfood! When we get down the root of the situation, cannabis is technically a vegetable, even though it's not often viewed as such.

Most people are familiar with the effects of smoking, vaping, or otherwise consuming cannabis, but have you ever considered eating it raw? From a nutritional perspective, cannabis is one of the healthiest foods you could possibly eat. It's a leafy, green vegetable that's loaded with protein, fibre, antioxidants, and a variety of vitamins and minerals. It can be blended up into a smoothie with other fruits and vegetables, pressed into a raw juice, or even eaten in a salad. The possibilities are limitless, as with most organic foods, and the health benefits are impressive.

BENEFITS OF RAW CANNABIS CONSUMPTION

Consuming cannabis straight from the earth has a multitude of therapeutic advantages. First and foremost, the cannabinoid acids, THCa (tetrahydrocannabinolic acid) and CBDa (cannabidiolic acid) which are tuen into THC and CBD when cannabis is heated, remain as they are.

CBDa has anti-inflammatory properties, it functions as an antibacterial, and it's known to reduce nausea and vomiting. THCa may protect against neurodegenerative diseases, treats epilepsy and muscle spasms, and provides relief for insomnia and pain.

Cannabis will also hold on to a lot more of its beneficial terpenes when it's not getting torched. Aside from producing the aroma and flavour profile, terpenes also have their own set of medicinal properties. They're known to have antibacterial, anti-fungal and anti-cancer properties.

Like many other green, leafy vegetables, cannabis is full of chock full of fibre, protein, fatty acids and iron. It can also give you a nice daily dose of vitamins such as vitamin C for immune function, vitamin K for calcium absorption, calcium for strong bones, and folate for DNA repair. Do you happen to have any purple-leafed cannabis? If so, make sure to add that to your diet as well! It's full of antioxidants and anthocyanins, which help remove damaged cells from the body.

It is worth noting, eating raw cannabis will not get you high - as the aforementioned THCa has not been turned into THC through a heating process. For some, this will be a turn-off, but for others, this may be a benefit. Know that THCa and CBDa do not have the same effects as THC and CBD. Both sets are being investigated individually - with THC and CBD currently being believed to have the more therapeutic potential. However, this does not mean raw cannabis doesn't have its uses - especially when it comes to a healthy, wholesome food source.

“We have a series of cannabis strains called ACDC. ‘AC’ stands for alternative cannabinoid, which is the CBD acid molecule, which has come into focus lately as being very important as an anti-inflammatory. And ‘DC’ stands for dietary cannabis. […] If you do heat it, then your dose is around 10mg. And if you don’t heat it, if it’s raw, then your dose is around one to 1,000-2,000mg.” Dr. William Courtney, a medical doctor and huge promoter of the “raw greens” cannabis movement.

CONSUMPTION METHODS

It's important to remember that you need to use buds from live cannabis plants. Dried, cured buds will not work as well for raw cannabis consumption.

Smoothie: It's a good idea to mix it with other fruits and veggies, to dilute the bitter taste of the weed.

Juicing: The fresher the veggies, cannabis in this case, the better the juice.
Salad: Chop it up and mix it with some dressing for a delicious and healthy salad.
Hemp Seeds: Use just like sunflower seeds, pumpkin seeds, or any other kind of seeds you enjoy snacking on.
Cold Compressed Cannabis Oil: Use it as an olive oil substitute.

Raw cannabis products, are safe to be consumed daily, it's encouraged actually! There are so many benefits raw marijuana can offer that you just can't get any other way.

> End of article.

Something I have never understood is the reaction in my system from eating fresh young leaves. Makes me think I could keep a plant in a forever veg state, and keep the size under control by trimming and ingesting the leaves.

I think people do that with traditional herbs. Which cannabis always used to be.
 
Off topic,
The follow up appointment for my wife's knee went will with no waiting. (WTF) The short version is, “You are doing great. Come back in six weeks.” We can do that.


That's the kind of news we like! Tell her we are thinking about her.
 
Oldbear said:
Glad things are going well with the knee. Life sucks when the knee hurts.

I found this article yesterday. That's one easy way to maximize cannabinoid and terpene intake. I will need to do more research on ingesting THCa and CBDa and understanding the medicinal properties of same.

>The Therapeutic And Dietary Benefits of Eating Raw Cannabis

Move over kale and spinach, marijuana is the new superfood! When we get down the root of the situation, cannabis is technically a vegetable, even though it's not often viewed as such.

Most people are familiar with the effects of smoking, vaping, or otherwise consuming cannabis, but have you ever considered eating it raw? From a nutritional perspective, cannabis is one of the healthiest foods you could possibly eat. It's a leafy, green vegetable that's loaded with protein, fibre, antioxidants, and a variety of vitamins and minerals. It can be blended up into a smoothie with other fruits and vegetables, pressed into a raw juice, or even eaten in a salad. The possibilities are limitless, as with most organic foods, and the health benefits are impressive.

BENEFITS OF RAW CANNABIS CONSUMPTION

Consuming cannabis straight from the earth has a multitude of therapeutic advantages. First and foremost, the cannabinoid acids, THCa (tetrahydrocannabinolic acid) and CBDa (cannabidiolic acid) which are tuen into THC and CBD when cannabis is heated, remain as they are.

CBDa has anti-inflammatory properties, it functions as an antibacterial, and it's known to reduce nausea and vomiting. THCa may protect against neurodegenerative diseases, treats epilepsy and muscle spasms, and provides relief for insomnia and pain.

Cannabis will also hold on to a lot more of its beneficial terpenes when it's not getting torched. Aside from producing the aroma and flavour profile, terpenes also have their own set of medicinal properties. They're known to have antibacterial, anti-fungal and anti-cancer properties.

Like many other green, leafy vegetables, cannabis is full of chock full of fibre, protein, fatty acids and iron. It can also give you a nice daily dose of vitamins such as vitamin C for immune function, vitamin K for calcium absorption, calcium for strong bones, and folate for DNA repair. Do you happen to have any purple-leafed cannabis? If so, make sure to add that to your diet as well! It's full of antioxidants and anthocyanins, which help remove damaged cells from the body.

It is worth noting, eating raw cannabis will not get you high - as the aforementioned THCa has not been turned into THC through a heating process. For some, this will be a turn-off, but for others, this may be a benefit. Know that THCa and CBDa do not have the same effects as THC and CBD. Both sets are being investigated individually - with THC and CBD currently being believed to have the more therapeutic potential. However, this does not mean raw cannabis doesn't have its uses - especially when it comes to a healthy, wholesome food source.

"We have a series of cannabis strains called ACDC. 'AC' stands for alternative cannabinoid, which is the CBD acid molecule, which has come into focus lately as being very important as an anti-inflammatory. And 'DC' stands for dietary cannabis. [...] If you do heat it, then your dose is around 10mg. And if you don't heat it, if it's raw, then your dose is around one to 1,000-2,000mg." Dr. William Courtney, a medical doctor and huge promoter of the "raw greens" cannabis movement.

CONSUMPTION METHODS

It's important to remember that you need to use buds from live cannabis plants. Dried, cured buds will not work as well for raw cannabis consumption.

Smoothie: It's a good idea to mix it with other fruits and veggies, to dilute the bitter taste of the weed.

Juicing: The fresher the veggies, cannabis in this case, the better the juice.
Salad: Chop it up and mix it with some dressing for a delicious and healthy salad.
Hemp Seeds: Use just like sunflower seeds, pumpkin seeds, or any other kind of seeds you enjoy snacking on.
Cold Compressed Cannabis Oil: Use it as an olive oil substitute.

Raw cannabis products, are safe to be consumed daily, it's encouraged actually! There are so many benefits raw marijuana can offer that you just can't get any other way.

> End of article.

Something I have never understood is the reaction in my system from eating fresh young leaves. Makes me think I could keep a plant in a forever veg state, and keep the size under control by trimming and ingesting the leaves.

I think people do that with traditional herbs. Which cannabis always used to be.
Click to expand...

Hi Oldbear, would you mind posting a link to the source for this? .
 
Hi Amy I first saw this on the Royal Queen Seeds website.

If you google the title "The Therapeutic And Dietary Benefits of Eating Raw Cannabis" you will get this article there and many similar articles from many sources.
 
Oldbear said:
Hi Amy I first saw this on the Royal Queen Seeds website.

If you google the title "The Therapeutic And Dietary Benefits of Eating Raw Cannabis" you will get this article there and many similar articles from many sources.
Click to expand...

..

.
 
The cannabinoid test is back. It is interesting. The decarbed numbers are better than the nondecarbed ones. Water? The decarbed sample was very dry.

Looking at the THC/THCV numbers, of 240 and 2.3mg/g. The not converted to THC is less than one percent of the total of THC and THCA combined.

The CBD would have to have come from CBGA that converted to CBDA and then to CBD in the decarb process because there was none in the nondecarbed sample. We were finding some CBD in the crock pot oil samples that Kickn was working with. They were from the same material as the7/24 sample, only Nova decarbed after a slow- n-low refrigerator dry.

The 7/24/17 and 10/31/17 samples are from the same plant. The 7/24 is air dried, non decarbed. Next is the 10/31 pressure cooker sample. It was a 90 minute run on high at 6000 feet.

Hopefully the terpene test will be complete tomorrow.

I have no idea what they will tell us.

#####################################################################
7_Redacted_SteepHill-Nightmare_Cookies.jpg
########################################################
SteepHill-pressureNC-cannabinoids.jpg
 
"The 7/24/17 and 10/31/17 samples are from the same plant. The 7/24 is air dried, non decarbed. Next is the 10/31 pressure cooker sample. It was a 90 minute run on high at 6000 feet."

??. I a little confused. CBN is forming even before all the THCA is converted (too hot?). CBGA is a factor but some of it formed CBG. Even if all went to THC it's not enough to account for all the THC. As for the water, I want to go back and see how we were treating that previously. Yep, lighter so all %s go up relative to mtl weight. Gee thanks Canyon....more to ponder.

After thought: Is it possible that sample had far more than 9% moisture? Things may get out of whack on thc% if there is excess moisture lost.
 
Calling All Machine Shop Gurus!

I've covered a lot of ground in the last few weeks. When we did the tests at Canyons' we left apx 23% cannabinoids behind in the material (unextracted). In our defense, we made no effort to maximize yield for the sake of time. But, even if we manhandled it for 20 min we probably would have 15% stuck in there. I know, all is not lost (101 uses for spent mtl, etc). However, it would be nice to get it all at once, no? Well that has been my focus. I'm shooting for the 98% range.

Again, my focus is on what can be accomplished in the home. I have been working with ultrasonic extraction. Household version? Sonic Jewelry cleaner machine. This is beating the material VIOLENTLY with microscopic explosions at 30,000 pulses per Second. Yeah, per second. So 30 minutes is an eternity. While you are pondering that....

Also, the ultrasonic machine will do the encapsulation far beyond any state you could accomplish with other kitchen tools. More on that later but start thinking in that direction.

BUT, I really like another route for both. In a lab, I would use a handheld homogenizer. This looks like a $1000 stick blender. Same deal, high rpms (not ultrasonic high) but has an attachment that will shred the material as it mixes at a crazyass speed. This "blends" things together better than anything. I am absolutely sure it will force the goodies out of the plant, no sweat. I mean in minutes.
Think skim milk; water & butter fat (oil). When homogenized, oil and water can become one liquid, never separating, even when cold. Anyway, it will extract & homogenize in a serious way.

Furthermore, in seconds it would encapsulate the thc, oil & lecithin far more competely than whatever blender you use at home. You are probably not getting more than 65% of it encapsulated believe it or not. SweetSue caused me to take a hard look at the value of encapsulation. So, if we can do better at that, then better meds.

THE PROBLEM
Obviously, at $1500+ the Homogenizer with necessary accessories is not on the table. SO:
I'm working with the lowly Dremel tool. It spins at 20,000 rpm's I believe. That, with a clever blade, will do your extraction.

MACHINE SHOP GUYS
I need ya baby. The largest shaft on a dremel is 1/8! Gotta be strong and at least part flat (min entry level, I know what we need but we gotta learn to walk) to be a paddle. Must be perfectly balanced but not very long; 2'' would be great. So far, I can't rig up anything that will withstand the rpm's.b HELP

If we could make this blade, oh flat for 1/4'' with an oblong center cut out, we would have a $100- homogenizer. Game over.
 
Kickn,

They make circular blades for Dremels and such. They may work on their own or you could heat them to take the temper out and modify the shape. Another possibility could be an actual propeller and shaft from a RC controlled boat. I used an industrial version to mix 25 gallon batches of photo processing chemicals. It was just a propeller on a shaft that you could raise and lower into a drum.

I like the ultra sound idea.

The last test is back. I need to redact it and find the matching sheet in my photos.

Back in 20
 
Kicknitup1 said:
Calling All Machine Shop Gurus!

I've covered a lot of ground in the last few weeks. When we did the tests at Canyons' we left apx 23% cannabinoids behind in the material (unextracted). In our defense, we made no effort to maximize yield for the sake of time. But, even if we manhandled it for 20 min we probably would have 15% stuck in there. I know, all is not lost (101 uses for spent mtl, etc). However, it would be nice to get it all at once, no? Well that has been my focus. I'm shooting for the 98% range.

Again, my focus is on what can be accomplished in the home. I have been working with ultrasonic extraction. Household version? Sonic Jewelry cleaner machine. This is beating the material VIOLENTLY with microscopic explosions at 30,000 pulses per Second. Yeah, per second. So 30 minutes is an eternity. While you are pondering that....

Also, the ultrasonic machine will do the encapsulation far beyond any state you could accomplish with other kitchen tools. More on that later but start thinking in that direction.

BUT, I really like another route for both. In a lab, I would use a handheld homogenizer. This looks like a $1000 stick blender. Same deal, high rpms (not ultrasonic high) but has an attachment that will shred the material as it mixes at a crazyass speed. This "blends" things together better than anything. I am absolutely sure it will force the goodies out of the plant, no sweat. I mean in minutes.
Think skim milk; water & butter fat (oil). When homogenized, oil and water can become one liquid, never separating, even when cold. Anyway, it will extract & homogenize in a serious way.

Furthermore, in seconds it would encapsulate the thc, oil & lecithin far more competely than whatever blender you use at home. You are probably not getting more than 65% of it encapsulated believe it or not. SweetSue caused me to take a hard look at the value of encapsulation. So, if we can do better at that, then better meds.

THE PROBLEM
Obviously, at $1500+ the Homogenizer with necessary accessories is not on the table. SO:
I'm working with the lowly Dremel tool. It spins at 20,000 rpm's I believe. That, with a clever blade, will do your extraction.

MACHINE SHOP GUYS
I need ya baby. The largest shaft on a dremel is 1/8! Gotta be strong and at least part flat (min entry level, I know what we need but we gotta learn to walk) to be a paddle. Must be perfectly balanced but not very long; 2'' would be great. So far, I can't rig up anything that will withstand the rpm's.b HELP

If we could make this blade, oh flat for 1/4'' with an oblong center cut out, we would have a $100- homogenizer. Game over.
Click to expand...

:thumb: would you please draw me a picture of entry level unit and advanced if known. :idea:
I'm a visual type & I have a few machine tools.:bongrip:----:Namaste:
 
Kicknitup1 said:
Calling All Machine Shop Gurus!

I've covered a lot of ground in the last few weeks. When we did the tests at Canyons' we left apx 23% cannabinoids behind in the material (unextracted). In our defense, we made no effort to maximize yield for the sake of time. But, even if we manhandled it for 20 min we probably would have 15% stuck in there. I know, all is not lost (101 uses for spent mtl, etc). However, it would be nice to get it all at once, no? Well that has been my focus. I'm shooting for the 98% range.

Again, my focus is on what can be accomplished in the home. I have been working with ultrasonic extraction. Household version? Sonic Jewelry cleaner machine. This is beating the material VIOLENTLY with microscopic explosions at 30,000 pulses per Second. Yeah, per second. So 30 minutes is an eternity. While you are pondering that....

Also, the ultrasonic machine will do the encapsulation far beyond any state you could accomplish with other kitchen tools. More on that later but start thinking in that direction.

BUT, I really like another route for both. In a lab, I would use a handheld homogenizer. This looks like a $1000 stick blender. Same deal, high rpms (not ultrasonic high) but has an attachment that will shred the material as it mixes at a crazyass speed. This "blends" things together better than anything. I am absolutely sure it will force the goodies out of the plant, no sweat. I mean in minutes.
Think skim milk; water & butter fat (oil). When homogenized, oil and water can become one liquid, never separating, even when cold. Anyway, it will extract & homogenize in a serious way.

Furthermore, in seconds it would encapsulate the thc, oil & lecithin far more competely than whatever blender you use at home. You are probably not getting more than 65% of it encapsulated believe it or not. SweetSue caused me to take a hard look at the value of encapsulation. So, if we can do better at that, then better meds.

THE PROBLEM
Obviously, at $1500+ the Homogenizer with necessary accessories is not on the table. SO:
I'm working with the lowly Dremel tool. It spins at 20,000 rpm's I believe. That, with a clever blade, will do your extraction.

MACHINE SHOP GUYS
I need ya baby. The largest shaft on a dremel is 1/8! Gotta be strong and at least part flat (min entry level, I know what we need but we gotta learn to walk) to be a paddle. Must be perfectly balanced but not very long; 2'' would be great. So far, I can't rig up anything that will withstand the rpm's.b HELP

If we could make this blade, oh flat for 1/4'' with an oblong center cut out, we would have a $100- homogenizer. Game over.
Click to expand...
Got a bar napkin sketch? Nothing serious just a sketch
 
We are on to something.

This batch is about 75% total terpenes retained and I am reasonably sure it was cooked too long.

There are some values that are larger than the original sample. From what I have read, some of the terpenes are formed from other terpenes. It makes sense, and would explain some of the uneven retention. I just never thought about it.

cbga >> thca >> thc >> cbn, why would terpenes be any different?


This is the not decarbed.
8_Redacted_SteepHill-Nightmare_Cookies_Terpenes.jpg

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Pressure Cooker
SteepHill-Nightmare_Cookies-terpenes.jpg
 

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