Doc Bud's Lemon Paki Pheno Hunt!

[Graytail]

I really appreciate you doing this work, Mike! And they're looking good! I have a cut in rotation, but they usually suffer in veg - haven't figured out the secret yet.

I tried 4 of your early S1s last fall, but I'm lousy at sprouting seeds and they didn't pop for me, one at a time. And I got a sample with the seeds, but that one was missing the Paki magic.

Hope you can find the right one!

 

[medmanmike]

I may have mentioned I've mirroring this thread on another site. A follower there asked what my criteria was for the flowering phase, post flower, etc. so I thought I would post it here too.


I "borrowed" these from the Internet and reworked for my purposes, with the exception of the Tasting & Sensory form from NODE LABS, which I'm using as is..

‎Testing&Sensory form.‎1.jpeg

• medmanmike
• Sep 20, 2023

 

[Slapalottapuss]

Sweet. That’s a good format.

 

[medmanmike]

Quick update - Day 46 from seed, second week of 11/13

The transplant did the trick! Plants are rocking! First pic, LP #8. She didn't start out well, but has really kicked into gear. Second pic is an overview of the five plants that made the first evaluation (#8 was not one of them!). (Plant at top right is a Black Afghani.)

LP8- closeup D46 f-Seed (1).jpeg

• medmanmike
• Sep 25, 2023

LP top 5 (BA top right).jpeg

• medmanmike
• Sep 25, 2023

 

[Slapalottapuss]

Looking good

 

[medmanmike]

Update - Day 53 f/seed, FD17

Ladies are all doing great. Had a bit of a surprise a couple of days ago - two of the Dark S.A.G.E. turned out to be male! I caught them in time so no harm done.

The LPs are beginning to show more variation. For example: note the difference in leaf shape on these two plants. The bottom plant/leaf is darker and thinner than the one at the top of the photo.

LP2 vs LP1 leaf var. FWk2.jpeg

• medmanmike
• Oct 3, 2023

And, this plant is adding a couple of extra leaflets on top of existing leaflets. Never seen this before!

LP1 leaf w-extra fingers.jpeg

• medmanmike
• Oct 3, 2023

LP8 has one branch that is a triploid. I've seen an entire plant do this from seed, but never just one branch.

LP8 - triploid - only one branch.jpeg

• medmanmike
• Oct 3, 2023

Finally, a couple of shots showing an overview of the garden (these are all LPs except the two in the middle of the black tray), and a close up, characteristic of all the LPs showing bud formation.

Garden FD17 D55 f-seed.jpeg

• medmanmike
• Oct 3, 2023

LP8 FD17 - top shot.jpeg

• medmanmike
• Oct 3, 2023

 

[overlord]

Update - Day 53 f/seed, FD17

Ladies are all doing great. Had a bit of a surprise a couple of days ago - two of the Dark S.A.G.E. turned out to be male! I caught them in time so no harm done.

The LPs are beginning to show more variation. For example: note the difference in leaf shape on these two plants. The bottom plant/leaf is darker and thinner than the one at the top of the photo.

LP2 vs LP1 leaf var. FWk2.jpeg

• medmanmike
• Oct 3, 2023

And, this plant is adding a couple of extra leaflets on top of existing leaflets. Never seen this before!

LP1 leaf w-extra fingers.jpeg

• medmanmike
• Oct 3, 2023

LP8 has one branch that is a triploid. I've seen an entire plant do this from seed, but never just one branch.

LP8 - triploid - only one branch.jpeg

• medmanmike
• Oct 3, 2023

Finally, a couple of shots showing an overview of the garden (these are all LPs except the two in the middle of the black tray), and a close up, characteristic of all the LPs showing bud formation.

Garden FD17 D55 f-seed.jpeg

• medmanmike
• Oct 3, 2023

LP8 FD17 - top shot.jpeg

• medmanmike
• Oct 3, 2023

Are the ones in the black tray, the black Afghani?

 

[medmanmike]

No - Dark S.A.G.E and Grandfather OG. Here's the Black Afghanis:

Black Afghani #2 - FD18.jpeg

• medmanmike
• Oct 4, 2023

Black Afghani #1 - FD18.jpeg

• medmanmike
• Oct 4, 2023

 

[overlord]

No - Dark S.A.G.E and Grandfather OG. Here's the Black Afghanis:

Black Afghani #2 - FD18.jpeg

• medmanmike
• Oct 4, 2023

Black Afghani #1 - FD18.jpeg

• medmanmike
• Oct 4, 2023

They are looking happy.

 

[medmanmike]

Had a little surprise this morning. While doing a routine plant check, I found this:

LP6 FD18 - Male flowers.jpeg

• medmanmike
• Oct 4, 2023

Needless to say I was bummed! S1 seeds aren't suppose to show male, so I'm making an assumption this just hermied. Male pods are throughout the plant, mostly on the lower nodes. All other plants were fine. Any thoughts from those of you who have experience breeding?

 

[Slapalottapuss]

Maybe a bad reversal. That can happen. Close eyes on all of them that used the fem pollen.

 

[Graytail]

The good news is that it can't be male pollen. Any seeds would be S2 fems.

 

[Slapalottapuss]

True

 

[Graytail]

Essentially the same sort of pollen that produced the plant in the first place, right?

This offspring simply reversed itself without getting purposely stressed.

 

[medmanmike]

Graytail, appreciate the comments. Yes, the plant is from an S1 seed, so any new seeds would be S2s. Those who have some of the S1 seeds have not reported any hermaphrodites, with the exception of Doc who reported "one was a male." He did not specify if the plant was male only or a combo.

I always thought that seeds produced by a hermaphroditic plant would tend to throw that characteristic to the next generation. Obviously don't want that!

This plant was highly rated using my aforementioned criteria and I had high hopes for it. I've thought of sticking it into a tent by itself and letting it go, but again, I don't want to introduce hermies into the mix. Your thoughts?

 

[Graytail]

I did a little looking around, and the thing people kept stressing is that there are no male chromosomes there, so ...

But the mechanisms in the plant are there for manipulation. That's what happens when we stress a living female to produce male flowers. We trigger that mechanism. So what happened to you, and maybe Doc, was a "mutation" in one of the S1s that triggered a reversal. Or a matchup of recessives.

That seems to make sense.

So yeah, I wouldn't want to use that pollen, if it triggered on its own.

 

[Slapalottapuss]

All I am saying is that the initial reversal to make the S1 seeds, that feminized pollen that came as a result of the reversal may not be stable and pass the herm trait down. Seen it happen many times.

 

[medmanmike]

I did a little looking around, and the thing people kept stressing is that there are no male chromosomes there, so ...

But the mechanisms in the plant are there for manipulation. That's what happens when we stress a living female to produce male flowers. We trigger that mechanism. So what happened to you, and maybe Doc, was a "mutation" in one of the S1s that triggered a reversal. Or a matchup of recessives.

That seems to make sense.

So yeah, I wouldn't want to use that pollen, if it triggered on its own.

I agree. I have decided to let the plant go - in a separate tent - to watch the process, see what happens, etc. I won't be capturing/using the pollen on other plants. I'll keep the seeds separate and grow out a few to see if they hermie.

 

[TheBreadsticka]

All I am saying is that the initial reversal to make the S1 seeds, that feminized pollen that came as a result of the reversal may not be stable and pass the herm trait down. Seen it happen many times.

Remember when the Cali connection gear hermed and destroyed a ton of huge grows?

A single plant herming isn’t a big deal, but with the small number you’re running, that would be bad luck.


That’s the difference between pollen chucking and breeding. You made pollen/seeds from one plant and just expect perfect female seeds. Seed makers collect pollen from multiple plants, dust multiple branch’s with different pollen, and test a couple hundred seeds to see if they’re stable. Breeders find a good male, and make real seeds through selective breeding. Like bodhis goji og.. those seeds threw 4 distinct phenos 90% of the time. It takes skill, work, and mostly patience.

I wouldn’t be surprised to see more herms later in flower when you’re really pushing, but I wish you good luck!

 

[Slapalottapuss]

For sure. I’d expect more herms as they progress. There is always a possibility that the flowers could be sterile. Fem seeds can be stable and perfectly fine but imo it’s all about the reversal. I’m also not sure about shelf life on fem seeds. I’ve got some that were totally fine when new but now a few years later they throw nanners and occasionally get a full on herm.

All I was saying in my initial comment was to keep an eye on them. Especially the lowers