Haight Solid State vs. H.G.LED

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

hey irish if this holds up, I should start reading palms....I guess my telepathy was being kind to the HSS light.....

Great job SS...guess after all the trimmimg your glad you were not comparing HID grows...LOL

good eye on the HGL side .

I also didn't think there would be that large a discrepancy between the two groups, but the HGL plants had lots of branching and a lot of secondary buds hidden under their skirts.

thanks bro

Actually, that wasn't much trimming at all for all the buds combined. To Bad really.

Actually, there was a *ton* of trimming.

The bud/leaf ratio was relatively low and I'm pretty finicky, so it took a long-assed time, lol.

 

[OldMedMan]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

good eye on the HGL side .

I also didn't think there would be that large a discrepancy between the two groups, but the HGL plants had lots of branching and a lot of secondary buds hidden under their skirts.

thanks bro




Actually, there was a *ton* of trimming.

The bud/leaf ratio was relatively low and I'm pretty finicky, so it took a long-assed time, lol.

Sorry mate I thought about it later and realized there were 8 plants to look through and I think look is the right word, because you were hunting for buds this time.

The grow was done to perfection Sun You were very much the Impartial Scientist all the way through. Perfect. I know that must have been hard growing them that way, you like to get your hands on em and make grow more buds. A lesson in growing for all of us. Well done Bro!

 

[sweetherb]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

Well, this really has been quite a journey!

I would like to congratulate SS on doing pretty much everything humanly possible to set ideal conditions for these plants to thrive. It is hard to imagine a better growing environment. Maximum possible respect from me for this

However, The photos of the buds and the wet weights really demonstrate to me that the claims of the manufacturers are definitely well wide of the mark.

I honestly don't even think these LEDs perform as well as HPS at a 1:1 ratio, let alone the 3:1 being touted.

I agree with much of what has been said and do still believe that LEDs will have their place for the small grower. The problem is that they are clearly not there yet, either in terms of performance or affordability.

Unfortunately, HGL will no doubt find yet another excuse as to why the yield is so low, but some things never change....

I for one am very grateful for all your hard work, SS! This has been my favorite grow journal ever, and I have followed a lot over the years!

 

[Mmmmick]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

HI SS great finish to a great comp grow. Congratulations.

I'm not surprised by your results as the parameters of the grow restricted a lot of tweaking that I'm sure you would normally have done to optimize results.

Tough to do a comp grow with such dissimiliar lights unless the grower optimizes each setup for the individual light. And that would invite each reader to gripe about different aspects of the grow, heheh.

The only downside I see to the comparison is that people persist in treating these results as representative of what leds can do, and applying these results to hid's. I'm seeing some pretty wild conclusions being drawn, but expected that to be the case.

I think this was a very well done comp grow and shows both strengths and weaknesses in each model. And mega-props to you for keeping it as close as possible to the original parameters, even when the suppliers instructions conflicted with what you knew was best. Well done, you have exhibuted great patience and fortitude.

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

SS, Great job I am a newbie and have really learned a lot. Thanks again.

thank you, dave . Glad you joined the website and hope you can apply what you've learned and grow some fine herb .

That's what we can call Going Green.

Love it SS.

Thank you so much my friend.

-Go

you're very welcome Go .

Glad you've been along for the trip .

SS, I never thought it would end, and know you're glad it's over !! Ha !! You did a fair comparison, and no one could have did it more fair. And now you can tell me how much the two culled plants, produced under the 150 hps. My guess is those two plants probably produced more than either of the leds , with 4 plants ?? Looking forward to whatever you do next. +reps to you, if i can !!

Thanks Slow!

I took some pics of the culls and will most likely put together a little separate retrospective journal on them in a few days.

stay tuned

Ehi Setting, i'm a little sad to see finish this great journal.
Really a wonderful job.
Gratz.

It's a little sad when something good that's been fun is over, but it makes room for beginning another grow, so I'm excited about that!

thank you for your comments and support, mio fratello .

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

HI SS great finish to a great comp grow. Congratulations.

thanks bro!

I'm not surprised by your results as the parameters of the grow restricted a lot of tweaking that I'm sure you would normally have done to optimize results.

Tough to do a comp grow with such dissimiliar lights unless the grower optimizes each setup for the individual light. And that would invite each reader to gripe about different aspects of the grow, heheh.

yep, that would have opened up several cans of worms . I think both lights were handicapped by the grow style to some degree, but with two such dissimilar products, I wanted to shoot for somewhere down the middle as opposed to setting up each tent completely differently.

The only downside I see to the comparison is that people persist in treating these results as representative of what leds can do, and applying these results to hid's. I'm seeing some pretty wild conclusions being drawn, but expected that to be the case.

Yep, and I've been guilty of making a couple of sweeping generalizations in my recent comments, so I appreciate your reminder.

When I stated that I don't think LED's are quite there yet as far as flowering, I should have limited my comments specifically to these two low-wattage lights, and then only as regards the grow style I chose for this comparison.

This grow does not represent all current LED tech, and we should have some completed grows soon with the higher power 300w and 600w panels that should provide data on that segment of LED lighting.

I think this was a very well done comp grow and shows both strengths and weaknesses in each model. And mega-props to you for keeping it as close as possible to the original parameters, even when the suppliers instructions conflicted with what you knew was best. Well done, you have exhibuted great patience and fortitude.

thanks Mmmmmick, much appreciated . I've also much appreciated your comments and insights along the way.

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

Well, this really has been quite a journey!

I would like to congratulate SS on doing pretty much everything humanly possible to set ideal conditions for these plants to thrive. It is hard to imagine a better growing environment. Maximum possible respect from me for this

However, The photos of the buds and the wet weights really demonstrate to me that the claims of the manufacturers are definitely well wide of the mark.

I honestly don't even think these LEDs perform as well as HPS at a 1:1 ratio, let alone the 3:1 being touted.

I agree with much of what has been said and do still believe that LEDs will have their place for the small grower. The problem is that they are clearly not there yet, either in terms of performance or affordability.

Unfortunately, HGL will no doubt find yet another excuse as to why the yield is so low, but some things never change....

I for one am very grateful for all your hard work, SS! This has been my favorite grow journal ever, and I have followed a lot over the years!

wow, now that's quite a compliment brother, thanks .

I think that the suitability of these two lights for a small personal grow depends on the needs of the grower. If needs are modest, then they may be a viable solution, but it's difficult to determine that because there still aren't that many completed LED grows to evaluate.

It looks like that's changing, however, so people will have more data to base their decision before spending their money.

thanks again sweetherb

 

[Tyrone Hamilton]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

Man, anyone got a sharp object? Just kidding, I know you won't let any of the well deserved praise go to your head...

If I was selling a light, there is no one I'd rather demo it than Brother Sun.

It's a little sad when something good that's been fun is over, but it makes room for beginning another grow, so I'm excited about that!

If I didn't know better, I'd think you were hinting at something... wait, I do know

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

If you're not amortizing grow equipment 3 years or less, you aren't being realistic.
50,000 hrs is more than 10 yrs at 12s, and a long reach into an uncertain future.
Small grows for personal med needs are practical with todays' LEDs.
Reduced heat footprint and modest power draw are very attractive.
A package un-matched by any other light source, IMO.
It does cost more to grow with these first class systems, but many will enjoy what they pay for.

Very good point on being realistic with the lifespan of grow equipment based on rapidly changing tech as opposed to how robust and durable or not the gear is.

Not sure if I agree that LEDs are currently un-matched as far as heat and energy usage, however.

For veg, I think the PAR advantage touted by LED vendors actually does provide an advantage over competing technologies, but overall, I think the current state of the art in T-5's is a worthy challenge to LED's.

thank you PG

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

Man, anyone got a sharp object? Just kidding, I know you won't let any of the well deserved praise go to your head...

I keep the sharp object handy, because I'm just a dude with a day job that likes to grow and talk about growing with other dudes/dudettes that share the same passion.

Knowing how much I don't know helps keep me grounded in reality.

If I was selling a light, there is no one I'd rather demo it than Brother Sun.

If you were selling a light and wanted me to demo it, I'd give it the fairest shake I could .

If I didn't know better, I'd think you were hinting at something... wait, I do know

I can't wait to spill the beans .

The culls sideshow is going to be fun too .

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

I would like to see the LED vendors advertise their products honestly.

HGL says: "Our 126W Penetrator Full Spectrum LED Grow Light, provides results equivalent or better than a 250W HID!"

If I'm not mistaken, not long ago they said it was on par with a 400 watt HID.

HSS says: "Growing with LEDs is differnent then growing with HPS and may require a few changes to your process, but in terms of yield per watt, our lights will provide 2 to 3 times the performance of HPS."

If I'm not mistaken, until recently they claimed their light was the equivalent of a 600 watt HPS.

Again, I'm not breaking the rules by posting this info....I merely followed the links provided on the very first post of this journal. These are the exact words of the manufacturers of these lights.

This grow, in my opinion, has accomplished one very important thing: It has forced these companies to make more realistic claims about their products. Seriously, as recently as 2 weeks ago, their websites made wild claims about their lights.

SS has showed us what these lights can do. Sure, with LST and other canopy control methods the overall yield can go up. There is no doubt about that. However, in terms of total yield, watt for watt they appear to be about as efficient as an HPS.

They will last longer, and create less heat.

I completely agree doc, except I would not extrapolate the results of this grow to include all LED lights.

These relatively low-powered lights, despite the PAR advantages claimed by the vendors, do not appear to have more magical watts as regards flowering than other competing technologies.

thanks bro

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

Wow! Those numbers really do tell the tale. Given the exquisite job of growing and getting to them of course.

thank you Papa G

The upfront cost is pretty steep on the LEDs, and it would certainly take multiple grows to recoup the difference in efficiency, but I can see where a single patient could make the LED work. They would have to smoke less than I do. And it clearly becomes more efficient over time. I guess that begs the question - will there be another technology with similar or better results that arrives before you recoup the LEDs?

That's a great question, and another one might be, is there another technology currently available that can compete in the same areas where LED's are strong, such as low-heat, possibly lower energy costs, but that cost less to purchase?

Also, I think - but i don't want to put words in anyone's mouth - it seems the consensus here is that the LEDs work well for a small grow, but I don't see anyone trying to pretend that a few hundred watts of LEDs is equivalent to a 1K or 2x600s - let alone trying to grow a dispensary under them.

I've seen some pics of peeps trying to do that with multiple units, but finding completed grows with that setup is another thing.

EDIT: I was just re-reading their site - and they compare their 345 to a 600 in terms of watts but the growing area is only 30"x30". I guess because of their flat design it gets funky figuring out optimal # of plants. So running those numbers they come out about the same as a 600HPS (again assuming you use .5 for HPS and 1.0 for LED ) but the cost of the initial light offsets any power savings or bulb the first year.

The numbers on their site simply don't make sense.

126 : Maximum Coverage Area of 24" x 36" @ 12" above your canopy, with a Recommended Lighting Area of 18" x 30"
345: Maximum Coverage Area of 36" x 36" @ 12" above your canopy, with a Recommended Lighting Area of 30" x 30"

almost 3x the wattage and only 30% more sf

Its like they decided what the numbers needed to be, then used those numbers for advertising.

I think HGL's claims for coverage may be optimistic. Intensity seems to drop off quickly, but then again, I was able to cover four plants adequately enough to produce the results it produced.

The HSS light does provide a lot of coverage, but it's at the expense of intensity, so that affects its performance, especially for flowering.

A higher-wattage LED light, with a viewing angle somewhere between these two lights, say 90 degrees, may not compromise as much on either the coverage end or the intensity end.

[/QUOTE]

1) how much does the light spread? Using the numbers from their site again - the dimensions of their 345 are 19"x19" with an optimal area of 36"x36" at 12" above the canopy. This sounds like very cohesive light. Not much spread.

I didn't take formal measurements of the beam's intensity and has dispersion, but it has a lot to do with the beam angle the manufacturer builds into the light.

The HGL's 60-degree beam is much narrower and more focused that the HSS's 140-degree beam angle.

2) If its cohesive - then the more LEDs you put in the same area would increase intensity, but not spread. So is this why sometimes I see LED grows where the plants are the size of a lighter, vs others where the plant is a little more like an avg size?

Spread has more to do with the beam angle built into the light than number of LED's. There is the same inverse relationship between intensity and coverage that other technologies have, but this seems to be a very critical issue in designing an LED panel.

In other words - I would not try to flower my 6 plant scrog under a 250hps because I would end up with crappy bud and plants like lighters. But I could flower 2 very nice plants under a 250 or VEG a bunch more. Is part of the problem with LEDs that folks are looking at those square footage numbers and thinking like HID where if you have a smaller bulb - you move it closer. But in reality the lower wattages simply aren't enough power to get anything bigger than a lighter no matter how close?

Well, you checked out the Roadrunner that Level Head grew with 126w. Those buds were certainly bigger than a lighter. I'm pretty sure that one of the reasons he achieved those results was that he moved the light down real close during bloom.

That grow is solid. There is enough intensity there to do the job, but you have to do things differently than with HID to get those results. Since penetration is low, you have to get the light in close, but if you have too many plants to cover, you won't be able to.

So - based on your plants, about how much penetration do you feel like you got? Is there an optimal distance from the plant that the light was too close or too far? At what distance did the buds change from nice buds to popcorn?

I was constrained by the number of plants I had under the light. The closest I could drop it and still get at least some light to all the plants was 8-10", but ideally, I would have had it down around 4-6", and only covering one or two plants.

3) If the smaller wattage is enough to flower under by moving the light closer - would it make sense for the LED manufacturers to make a much more spread out 345w? In other words are they cramming more LEDs into the same space to try to achieve penetration, when they should be focusing on increasing the sq/footage available under the light? Given its low heat - seems like they should be able to acheive linear horizontal expansion. Figure out the closest the LED's can be, and the minimum wattage required at that distance to get full sized buds. Then simply go sideways. If it takes 50w/sq ft at 3" then 100w at 3" should be 2 sq ft.

You can't get more coverage without losing intensity. You could regain the intensity by adding more LED's, but then perhaps the wattage levels might not make them competitive with other lighting options.

All these questions demonstrate my ignorance of LEDs - so if anyone has any corrections to my math or logic please correct me. Feel free to PM me if you don't want to interrupt this thread any more. As I am now gonna try to shut up for a little and do more learning.

I'm no expert either Papa G, but this technology is subject to the same physical limitations as any other, and LED's seem to be more critical in this regard.

Last question:

Do you have any thoughts why one light performed so much better than the other? Specifically - do you think its the nm of the LEDs used?

I'm just guessing here, because designing lights is not my thing, but I think it had to do with both differences in spectrum and focus.

thanks Papa G

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

2-3 grows is probably as far as anyone can plan ahead these days.
As far as small grows for personal meds goes, that's what these are probably best suited for.
The quality of smoke is definitely there.
Compared to the cost of buying from the dispensaries, it doesn't take much to pencil out, even if it doesn't completely fill a patient's needs.
I am not finished experimenting with the technology, yet.

Thanks again Setting Sun, you did a great job and I learned a lot.

I think with some fine-tuning and more understanding of how to use these lights as far as distance from the plants, usable coverage, etc., they may work quite well for smaller grows.

I'm glad you're continuing with your experiments, and I will do likewise .

I recently purchased and received a dr60 grow tent and was still searching for a lighting system. Came across your journal and it was just what I needed, I was looking at the hss ppf 400 for my tent and 2 to 3 plants. I plan on reading through it all and was wondering do you think it will do the job. Just wanted your advise btw this is my first attempt to grow herb and all help is welcomed. Great job on the grow and hope to complete one of my own. Thanks

Whether it will do the job depends on many things. How you set up the grow, how much experience you have growing, and what your needs are as far as yield.

If you can hold off on your purchase, I would check out some current grow journals and get a feel for what gear you need to meet your needs.

The HSS light appears to have not done very well on this grow, but one grower here, sfhaze, consistently meets his needs with the same HSS model you're looking at. You may want to check out his journal and ask some questions.

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

Nice haul bro. . . I'm not surprised the HGL did better, it looked that way towards the end, but I take SF's comments to heart too, these lights have completely different distributions, and the parameters of the grow may have skewed the results in favor of one light over the other. under no constraints, the results may have been completely different.

I agree with you.

I think *both* lights were handicapped by the grow style, but chances are, it wasn't a 50/50 handicap.

I also very much respect Haight Solid State for donating their product for this grow, and it has been a *pleasure* to communicate with them when that has been necessary.

I wish we could see a round 2 including that 150w hps, with no constraints whatsoever. or maybe add some small supplemental cfl's to each LED room. . . i think there might be great untapped potential in some sort of hybrid system to get the best of all worlds: The highly focused but discrete spectrum of LED along with the highly efficient continuous spectrum of CFL to "fill in the gaps" so to speak.

If I had been doing this as a personal grow, I would have LST'd and used two 68w 2700k spiral CFL's for side-lighting. That would have helped with both penetration and intensity.

I also agree that pitting these lights against my 150HPS would be *very* interesting and useful. I'm not sure if I'm keeping the HGL light, so unfortunately, that comparison may not be doable.

Wet weights are wet weights. . . 75% is a good way to guesstimate, but I'll reserve calculations until the dry wt's are in.

still, that HGL might out-do my wheel this time. :surrender::surrender::surrender: ugh.

The buds are drying fast because there isn't that much of them, and I have to keep them separated. If I didn't have to get individual dry weights, I would have just piled them all together in order to slow down the cure, but they're already smelling pretty sweet.

i still love the tric shots the most bro, will it work on dried buds too? i wanna see that!

Great idea! I'll try to get some with both the Eyeclops and the USB scope.

Love'n the dry racks too, so easy right?

I do love those things, but they aren't official bud drying racks. Those are hanging closet organizers made out of nylon mesh. They cost $8 apiece and work great! Two of them fit perfect in one of my tents, so I could still be growing in the other tent if need be, and they give me plenty of partitions to keep plants separate for comparisons like this. Love those things. Unfortunately, I couldn't find them in green, my favorite color .

overall you did an outstanding job.. . . of course as always, the truth will be in the smoke report. after all, that's the point right??

thanks wheelo, I value your friendship and participation

Yep, that's the point and the buds should be dry enough in a couple more days .

 

[420warriors]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

Great comp SS, you have been a true professional from start to finish. The yields speak for themselves but I am also looking forward to a smoke report. I think your 150w hps would beat either one of those lights though. I'm not asking you to do this but I would love to see either LED go against CFLs, The newest most expensive technology against the cheapest. Since it would be a comp for the grower it wouldn't need such restraints. It could have more freedom to get max yield.(I think LST, SOG or SCROG would work well for either light) These lights share many traits as far as strengths and weaknesses. Doing it that way would put the grower back in the equation, but the grower IS part of the equation. I also think if CFLs beat LEDs it would force manufacturers to look at their claims and prices. Thats probably not your next grow but whatever is next I will certainly be watching

 

[Durango Trip]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

SS, I have just gotten back in the game after almost 20 years and wanted to catch up on the latest and greatest. I couldn't have been any luckier than when I came across your journal.

I have been trying to catch up on it the last few days, and the suspence was killing me. I kept wanting to jump ahead and see what the final result was, but I think I showed great restraint, by not doing so. I can't imagine what it was like for you and all those who followed this grow.

Things certainly have changed since I last grew and I was truly hoping this turned out better than it did. I agree with everyone else that you were the man to do this grow, and I do think there is a great future for LED's, but sadly to say, for large scalae grows, now is just not the time.

While I had great hopes and had already done a bit or research on the HSS, I probably would buy a HGL for veg, but would still finish them off with HID's.

I am really excited by what is available today, and getting to teach my son will make it all the better.

I have a few brief questions to ask sorta topic related, but don't want to add it to this thread. if you could PM me at some point when you aren't busy creating your Alchemy.

GREAT JOB!

 

[ledtester]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

Great idea! I'll try to get some with both the Eyeclops and the USB scope.

Hey SS does the eyeclops only plug into the tv?

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

Great comp SS, you have been a true professional from start to finish. The yields speak for themselves but I am also looking forward to a smoke report. I think your 150w hps would beat either one of those lights though. I'm not asking you to do this but I would love to see either LED go against CFLs, The newest most expensive technology against the cheapest. Since it would be a comp for the grower it wouldn't need such restraints. It could have more freedom to get max yield.(I think LST, SOG or SCROG would work well for either light) These lights share many traits as far as strengths and weaknesses. Doing it that way would put the grower back in the equation, but the grower IS part of the equation. I also think if CFLs beat LEDs it would force manufacturers to look at their claims and prices. Thats probably not your next grow but whatever is next I will certainly be watching

That would be another excellent comparison. CFL's are cheap and they work.

Next's one's gonna be big fun .


thanks bro

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

SS, I have just gotten back in the game after almost 20 years and wanted to catch up on the latest and greatest. I couldn't have been any luckier than when I came across your journal.

I have been trying to catch up on it the last few days, and the suspence was killing me. I kept wanting to jump ahead and see what the final result was, but I think I showed great restraint, by not doing so. I can't imagine what it was like for you and all those who followed this grow.

Things certainly have changed since I last grew and I was truly hoping this turned out better than it did. I agree with everyone else that you were the man to do this grow, and I do think there is a great future for LED's, but sadly to say, for large scalae grows, now is just not the time.

While I had great hopes and had already done a bit or research on the HSS, I probably would buy a HGL for veg, but would still finish them off with HID's.

I am really excited by what is available today, and getting to teach my son will make it all the better.

I have a few brief questions to ask sorta topic related, but don't want to add it to this thread. if you could PM me at some point when you aren't busy creating your Alchemy.

GREAT JOB!

Congrats on coming back to growing!

When I came back I was overwhelmed. All kinds of new equipment, growing methods, and strains I'd never heard of.

I found the best way to learn about stuff and get caught up was to read grow journals. The knowledge and experience shared here is priceless.

I think you showed a ton of restraint in not jumping ahead. Watching it in real-time seemed interminable.

If you're not in a rush to get started, I'd hang around a bit and check out some journals. Try to find grows on the same scale as you're planning and see what people are using and what kind of results they're getting.

thanks Durango, nice to meet you

 

[hydronewbie]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

Congrats on coming back to growing!

When I came back I was overwhelmed. All kinds of new equipment, growing methods, and strains I'd never heard of.

I found the best way to learn about stuff and get caught up was to read grow journals. The knowledge and experience shared here is priceless.

I think you showed a ton of restraint in not jumping ahead. Watching it in real-time seemed interminable.

If you're not in a rush to get started, I'd hang around a bit and check out some journals. Try to find grows on the same scale as you're planning and see what people are using and what kind of results they're getting.

thanks Durango, nice to meet you

...and I put in a plug for the hydroponic method, specifically, Deep Water Culture.