Icemud's Far Red LED Journal - Flower Trigger Manipulation - Budmaster LED Lights

[Kalimaki420]

Thx Ice for testing this out

Is there any knowledge of W vs area or how much these 70W IR covers ?

 

[drcannabi]

Hey there Ice, what is that clone tray with the brown cubes? I see the water level is sufficient to be above the bottom of the secondary trays. You should grab an air pump and little stones that can fit between the secondary trays. This will Oxygenate the water and make rooting much faster.

Edit: Oh yeah, plant's look great!

 

[Icemud]

Looking pretty fine Ice

Thanks Fuzzy Duck! !!

 

[Icemud]

Nice, looking forward to the grow

Hey Billyjack! glad to have you! I'm looking forward to it too! can't wait to see if these Far Red panels do their thing with a extended daylight flowering

 

[Icemud]

Thx Ice for testing this out

Is there any knowledge of W vs area or how much these 70W IR covers ?

Hey Darkgrow!

Its a great question but I have not yet found an answer besides a few sources saying that very little Far Red is enough to work for flower triggering. Now what they mean by "very little" doesn't explain a whole lot, but I am guessing that this little Budmaster Emerson panel probably would work for a good 4x4 area for flower triggering.


For the emerson effect, I don't really know either as I haven't found an answer to how much Far Red is enough, and how much is too much. It seems that its all about the ratio of red to far red, and the closer the ratio gets to 1:1, the more stretch the plant supposedly will show where if the red:far red ratio is like a 2 or 3:1 or more, this will keep the plants shorter. So for morphology, this is what I found out, but for emerson effect I still haven't found the right amount of Far Red.

Great question but I haven't yet found those types of answers.. Hopefully I will though as I would love to know more about how to use this light optimally.

 

[Icemud]

Hey there Ice, what is that clone tray with the brown cubes? I see the water level is sufficient to be above the bottom of the secondary trays. You should grab an air pump and little stones that can fit between the secondary trays. This will Oxygenate the water and make rooting much faster.

Edit: Oh yeah, plant's look great!

Hey Dr. Cannabi!

Good suggestion

I try to keep the water level just enough, where it doesn't soak the root riot plugs as I found the cuttings seem to root better when its moist, but not saturated. Unfortunately sometimes I overfill it, but in a matter of a day or 2 the level drops below the 2nd tray due to evaporation and condensation leaking off the clear dome. Thats a good idea with the air stone, I will have to look at the hydroshop next time I go for tiny airstones, I already have an extra pump too appreciate you dropping some knowledge

 

[Kalimaki420]

Thx Ice.

I see these panels are brand new and not available yet ?
All I see is EM 1 and 2 with 660 + 730nm.

I think about use them mainly as flower trigger but staying at 12/12 as I grow perpetual.
So still undecided if that make sense.

 

[Billyjack]

Hey Billyjack! glad to have you! I'm looking forward to it too! can't wait to see if these Far Red panels do their thing with a extended daylight flowering

Thanks man. I really enjoy your posts and grows. You are one of the few folks I follow. The site has many great growers but I do not have time to follow them all. One of the things that I learned was to grow within my skill set, which is simple grows getting a decent product. You on the other hand are a master alchemist doing great stuff. You have a deep knowledge and you are always willing to share what you know.

 

[Icemud]

Thx Ice.

I see these panels are brand new and not available yet ?
All I see is EM 1 and 2 with 660 + 730nm.

I think about use them mainly as flower trigger but staying at 12/12 as I grow perpetual.
So still undecided if that make sense.

Thats odd, I wasn't even aware that they no longer have just the Far Red 730nm panel?? I see that too that its only 660nm and 730nm which wouldn't work with flower triggering as the red will counteract the Far Red Effect... So I guess now its only for enhancing the emerson effect, however I don't know how much red:far red is minimum and max for the emerson effect to work efficiently. Hugh... ? Not sure why they got rid of the 730nm version... Maybe someone already tried it as a flowering trigger and it didn't work? Im not sure... I'll have to ask Paul at Budmaster what the deal is with that, and if the 730nm Only panels are still avail.

Thanks for mentioning it. I'm sure if you wanted a 730nm only panel, he could make one for you.

 

[drcannabi]

Please let me know what Paul says. I have one of those too. Got it the same time you did. I haven't used it yet because my understanding of the emerson effect is limited. I just think I'll stay on 12x12 and run it for for hours during the light cycle like you. It will be interesting to see the differences in your yield.

 

[Icemud]

Please let me know what Paul says. I have one of those too. Got it the same time you did. I haven't used it yet because my understanding of the emerson effect is limited. I just think I'll stay on 12x12 and run it for for hours during the light cycle like you. It will be interesting to see the differences in your yield.

He got back to me, but I didn't understand the response so I asked for a little detail or clarification. I'm going to try it with the 14/10 schedule and see what happens, If I see something odd or the plants struggling to flower than I may bump it down slightly but I have a feeling from everything so far I have read it should work.

Right now I'm using it for 4 hours during the middle of my 18/6 daylight period, so it comes on around 6 hours after the lights come on, runs for 4 hours and then goes off. I'm not really noticing much difference other than my plants seem to have much larger leaves on them, similar to the old HPS and HID grows I used to do, where LED seemed to make for slightly smaller leaves, but it could just be my eyes too, as I don't have a side by side to compare to. Whether or not the Far Red is really contributing its hard to say, but I guess it can't hurt since the sun has a 1.2:1 ratio of Red/Far Red, and most LED grow lights are much higher of a ratio.

I'm wondering how adding the Far Red may effect trichome or terpene production, but I haven't really found any info yet on either, but will definitely post it if I find it

 

[Icemud]

Thanks man. I really enjoy your posts and grows. You are one of the few folks I follow. The site has many great growers but I do not have time to follow them all. One of the things that I learned was to grow within my skill set, which is simple grows getting a decent product. You on the other hand are a master alchemist doing great stuff. You have a deep knowledge and you are always willing to share what you know.

Hey Billyjack!

I really appreciate you following along and joining in happy to have you here and glad that you enjoy the journaling and grows too I still have a lot to learn and perfect before I am completely a master, but I'm definitely moving up in the ranks I just love the plant and all the different ways to grow, and perfect the craft or art of growing the best cannabis Can't wait to see in another 5 years where I will be

 

[drcannabi]

Icemud. That all makes great sense. I'm looking at using it this next round. To cool off a light not to use somewhere lol!

 

[TorturedSoul]

Hey, bro. I'm here sitting in the shadows. But I probably won't be commenting much (if at all), because in this particular journal, I know I'll just be a student with nothing to teach, lol.

 

[TorturedSoul]

Actually, lol...

I can imagine a scenario in which, for whatever reason, the "darkness" of the dark period is sub-optimum. Say... more light getting in to the grow than the average illumination provided by the sunlight reflecting off the moon at night. Maybe enough to interfere somewhat with flowering. Is there any way that these kinds of wavelengths could offset this?

I don't mean a short period of (relatively) bright light - I mean dim (but still significant) light during the entire lights-off period. So it would not be a case of quickly firing up the "far red LED panel" for a short period of time and then hoping that the remainder of the "night" would then be sufficient. But maybe, IDK, leave such a product on all "night" long? Or does it not work like that.

I'm feeling dumber by the minute!

 

[Mr. Krip]

He got back to me, but I didn't understand the response so I asked for a little detail or clarification. I'm going to try it with the 14/10 schedule and see what happens, If I see something odd or the plants struggling to flower than I may bump it down slightly but I have a feeling from everything so far I have read it should work.

Right now I'm using it for 4 hours during the middle of my 18/6 daylight period, so it comes on around 6 hours after the lights come on, runs for 4 hours and then goes off. I'm not really noticing much difference other than my plants seem to have much larger leaves on them, similar to the old HPS and HID grows I used to do, where LED seemed to make for slightly smaller leaves, but it could just be my eyes too, as I don't have a side by side to compare to. Whether or not the Far Red is really contributing its hard to say, but I guess it can't hurt since the sun has a 1.2:1 ratio of Red/Far Red, and most LED grow lights are much higher of a ratio.

I'm wondering how adding the Far Red may effect trichome or terpene production, but I haven't really found any info yet on either, but will definitely post it if I find it

Actually, lol...

I can imagine a scenario in which, for whatever reason, the "darkness" of the dark period is sub-optimum. Say... more light getting in to the grow than the average illumination provided by the sunlight reflecting off the moon at night. Maybe enough to interfere somewhat with flowering. Is there any way that these kinds of wavelengths could offset this?

I don't mean a short period of (relatively) bright light - I mean dim (but still significant) light during the entire lights-off period. So it would not be a case of quickly firing up the "far red LED panel" for a short period of time and then hoping that the remainder of the "night" would then be sufficient. But maybe, IDK, leave such a product on all "night" long? Or does it not work like that.

I'm feeling dumber by the minute!

I'm feeling pretty dumb about this, too, so I'm right there with you, Brother!

Hopefully, we'll all learn something on this one!

OK...here's where I'm a little lost...

You said your running the far red for 4 hours in the middle of the lights-on period? Wouldn't you want to run it during the last 4 hours before lights off? I thought they were looking for that far red spectrum at "dawn"?

To be VERY clear, I am purely asking questions here and NOT suggesting you're doing anything wrong!

 

[Gazoo]

I also thought it should be used just before lights out, 10 to 15 minutes of far red at dusk.
Just watched Harley Smith's class "How to Maximize Yields" and he actually mentioned along
with the fact Far Red ( 720Nm ) puts the plants to sleep and that the Blue Spectrum is responsible
for waking the plants up

 

[Icemud]

Thx Ice.

I see these panels are brand new and not available yet ?
All I see is EM 1 and 2 with 660 + 730nm.

I think about use them mainly as flower trigger but staying at 12/12 as I grow perpetual.
So still undecided if that make sense.

I got an email back from Paul at Budmaster and he said they are available, but not in stock yet. (the 730nm only's) and he said it will be about 8 weeks out.

As far as the other light he has currently, the 660nm and 730nm, he said that he believes that a little bit of 660nm is necessary, as the light is meant to be used for around 2 hours after dark, vs 15 minutes. But he says that the ratio of how much red to far red is still unknown, and even other horticulture professionals he has consulted with are unsure of the ratio, but he is looking to get this tested soon.

For flower triggering, I don't really know if 660nm is needed or not as most of what I have read says that 660nm is the opposite effect of 730nm, if 730nm is the last flash of light the SDP plants will receive, then they will flower, but if they get a flash of 730nm and then a flash of 660nm, then it reverses the effect and will put then into veg. Now if you can use 660nm with 730nm to get the same effect, I personally was not aware of that.

For the lights purpose of emerson effect which is I think what it is mainly developed for, then he is correct as the ratio of red:far red isn't known for optimal cannabis production. The sun has a ratio of 1.2:1 red to far red, and generally what I have read is that the higher the ratio, the less stretch. Now what "higher" ratio is optimal, nobody knows that I have found, so its really cool if paul is going to work on testing this out with researchers not many LED companies actually do this as far as research and seeking the answers, big kudos to Budmaster for being innovative!

So as of now that is the info but I will keep you posted if I hear more, or find out more.

 

[millertm]

This lumatek has a small far red spike. My flowers are looking beter then I've ever seen. You might be on to something Ice.

 

[Icemud]

I also thought it should be used just before lights out, 10 to 15 minutes of far red at dusk.
Just watched Harley Smith's class "How to Maximize Yields" and he actually mentioned along
with the fact Far Red ( 720 ) puts the plants to sleep and that the Blue Spectrum is responsible
for waking the plants up

Hey Gazoo!

Yes, for flowering triggering, that is correct, as the brief illumination with far red light on short day plants, will quickly revert the photochrome instead of it being a long slow process over the course of night. That is correct for flower triggering I will be experimenting with this in a few weeks when I flip my plants to flowering I will be running a 14 hour day, 10 hour night for flowering, and by using the 730nm LED, theoretically the plant should still flower. I will be using the Far Red light for 2 hours each day after the lights go out.

What I currently am using it for is the emerson effect which is different than flower triggering. The emerson effect is a study from a few decades ago that shows that using red + far red light enhances photosynthesis much higher than the combination of red only or far red only together, showing they work in relation to each other, and actually lead to the discovery of 2 photosystems in plants P680 and P700.

So by adding Far red light to white light or red light, this enhances the rate of photosynthesis. Now we don't really know at this time how much Red to Far red light is useful. We know the sun is around 1.2 red : 1 far red, and HPS lights are around 1.05 red : 1 far red. With LED lights having so much red, and only usually 1 or 2 Far red diodes, I think that adding far red would be beneficial, and maybe this is why HPS perform so good, which many consider this as "wasted light" ? a lot is still unknown still.

The last line of the research paper I got that from was interesting as it says " No differences in quality were found among flowers from any treatment." interesting so maybe Far red doesn't have much influence on the flowering quality, but more plant morphological and photosynthetic influence.

RED TO FAR-RED RATIO IN HIGH-PRESSURE SODIUM LIGHTS AFFECTS YIELD IN ROSES

Glenn L. Roberts and M. J. Tsujita

+
Author Affiliations

University of Guelph, Dept. of Horticulture, Guelph, Ontario, N1E1B7, Canada

Abstract

An experiment was conducted to determine whether the high R:FR ratio in high pressure sodium (HPS) lamps contributes to lateral bud breaking in roses. Rosa hybrida cv. `Samantha' plants were grown under HPS lamps, HPS lamps fitted with blue gel filters to reduce the R:FR ratio or metal halide lamps. Spectral graphs showed R:FR ratios of 1.05, 0.5 and 3.8 for HPS, filtered HPS and metal halide respectively. Although the R:FR ratio in metal halide was notably higher than in HPS the total energy in this range was much lower. At a 24hr supplemental PPF level of 70-75uEm-2s-1 more flowering shoots were produced under HPS and metal halide lighting than under filtered HPS. There were more dormant shoots under the filtered HPS. No differences in quality were found among flowers from any treatment.

Blue light does somewhat "wake plants up" but plants actually "wake up" by developing a circadian rhythm, which is driven by blue light. But rather than the light "waking them up" like the morning sun in our eyes while we are sleeping, the blue light drives the day/night rhythm of the plants, where they anticipate morning as it usually come at the same hour roughly each day, slowly changing over the months minute by minute. Blue light is actually quite fascinating on the many ways it influences plants.