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Outdoor Balcony Grow, AMS White Widow Xtrm & Gorgonzola, Supersoil, Fluxing, 2019

Stunger

Well-Known Member
I sort of regret that I didn't try hermie'ing a cola with Colloidal Silver to try and get some pure Gorgonzola seeds. However, I did pollinate 2 colas with WWX pollen and already got about 15 seeds from the few bits that I've pruned off so hopefully there's 100 or so more seeds to come. And hopefully too, that the resulting cross is a good one.
 

Emeraldo

Active Member
Late in flower, your Gorgonzola might just put out a nanner and you could find a S1 seed in one of your dried or drying buds. They are generally about 99% viable (though not the best for long-term breeding because of potential instability).

And then maybe you will like the cross WWX x Gorgonzola, since those seed were from WWX pollen. Were both plants, your WWX and Gorgonzola grow from feminized seed or regular?
 

Emeraldo

Active Member
I also used pollen from a male White Widow Xtrm that the donator of my seed grew out of his AMS's feminized seeds, I pollinated 2 colas to have seeds for future grows.
Did the donator get a male from AMS feminized seed?
 

Stunger

Well-Known Member
Late in flower, your Gorgonzola might just put out a nanner and you could find a S1 seed in one of your dried or drying buds. They are generally about 99% viable (though not the best for long-term breeding because of potential instability).

And then maybe you will like the cross WWX x Gorgonzola, since those seed were from WWX pollen. Were both plants, your WWX and Gorgonzola grow from feminized seed or regular?
The Gorgonzola is grown from a female seed from AMS. My current WWX was the result from last year's grow of a AMS female WWX that I selectively pollinated a cola with pollen that came from a friend's AMS WWX (bought as a female seed from the same packet that he gave me the seed that I grew) but his one seemed to be a full male AMS WWX plant with zero buds, so given they came from female sold seeds I am unsure whether the plant he grew out that donated the pollen was a hermie or a true male. I feel it was a true male as it had no buds. This year I sprouted 3 WWX seeds (the offspring of last year's pollination), I got 2 females and 1 male. Of the male there was no sign of pistils, only male pollen sacs so again I am assuming that it was a true male and not a hermie, and hence I assume that makes it more likely that the last year's pollen was a true male. My inexperienced assumptions here! This year's remaining female plant I gave to a friend whose own plants had failed on him, when I gave it to him it hadn't yet showed it's gender. But he confirmed the pistils were developing a few days later, so that was great , it was a female. But then it hermied on him which was a damn disappointment, whether due to the shock of transport to his location, different water, him relocating it several times at the new site, it was potted with super soil but he additionally fed it with some nutrients as well. It would be great to understand what caused it to hermie for future knowledge, is it one of the above or something different.

Anyway hopefully the WWX Gorgonzola cross seeds give a nice result when grown out. As I have said before, here in NZ 'beggars can't be choosers'.

You mentioned previously that the Gorgonzola appeared to be a nice looking sativa. The AMS notes said it is 60% sativa 40% indica, it did have a slightly darker green leaves than the WWX which AMS states is only 40% sativa. However I wondered whether the taller sparser budding and thin leaves has perhaps more of a sativa appearance?
 

Emeraldo

Active Member
The Gorgonzola is grown from a female seed from AMS. My current WWX was the result from last year's grow of a AMS female WWX that I selectively pollinated a cola with pollen that came from a friend's AMS WWX (bought as a female seed from the same packet that he gave me the seed that I grew) but his one seemed to be a full male AMS WWX plant with zero buds, so given they came from female sold seeds I am unsure whether the plant he grew out that donated the pollen was a hermie or a true male. I feel it was a true male as it had no buds. This year I sprouted 3 WWX seeds (the offspring of last year's pollination), I got 2 females and 1 male. Of the male there was no sign of pistils, only male pollen sacs so again I am assuming that it was a true male and not a hermie, and hence I assume that makes it more likely that the last year's pollen was a true male. My inexperienced assumptions here! This year's remaining female plant I gave to a friend whose own plants had failed on him, when I gave it to him it hadn't yet showed it's gender. But he confirmed the pistils were developing a few days later, so that was great , it was a female. But then it hermied on him which was a damn disappointment, whether due to the shock of transport to his location, different water, him relocating it several times at the new site, it was potted with super soil but he additionally fed it with some nutrients as well. It would be great to understand what caused it to hermie for future knowledge, is it one of the above or something different.
At risk of repeating some of your details, I summarize to make sure I understand the background:
1. The current Gorgonzola grew from a feminized seed created by AMS. In all likelihood, any S1 seeds she produces by way of self-pollination in late flower would also produce female plants if you grow them out. But with S1 seeds, while 99% viable and the harvest is good for smoking, the plants can "herm" more easily than a regular female under stress, so be kind to them! :) While extremes in heat, watering, nutrients, etc. can trigger more self-pollination (nanners), it isn't the same thing as a full-blown hermie plant. Self-pollination is also a fairly common and natural response for your Gorgonzola in late flower to try and pollinate herself (no body else is gonna do it, it's self-help time for her). The seed progeny (from plants grown from S1 seeds) are said to likely have wider variation, i.e., you might not get the same pheno, and will show diminishing genetic stability the further out you go in generations.
2. Your current WWX grew from a seed produced by last year's WWX female, and it sounds like the WWX seeds from your WWX plant from last year were "regular" seeds (not feminized). I say that because you grew out 3 of her seeds this year and got 2 females and 1 male, and that wouldn't happen with a plant from feminized seed (seeds off a plant grown from a feminized seed will, if grown out, produce a female plant or a possibly a hermie, but not a male). This leads me to think that your friend maybe thought he was buying feminized WWX seeds from AMS, but in fact they sold him regular. That would explain why you got a male and 2 females. If true, that would suggest his male was in fact a true male with male flowers and... hopefully good stable genetics. The fact that your other female WWX this year, which you gave to a friend, hermied on him, could possibly be explained by all the stress he gave it. Your WWX this year has not hermed, I assume, and you pollinated her this year with WWX pollen from your male, right? So the Gorgonzola x WWX seeds you get this year will be good enough to grow out next year, and according to Clark in Marijuana Botany (I looked it up) will be 99% female.
 

Stunger

Well-Known Member
At risk of repeating some of your details, I summarize to make sure I understand the background:
1. The current Gorgonzola grew from a feminized seed created by AMS. In all likelihood, any S1 seeds she produces by way of self-pollination in late flower would also produce female plants if you grow them out. But with S1 seeds, while 99% viable and the harvest is good for smoking, the plants can "herm" more easily than a regular female under stress, so be kind to them! :) While extremes in heat, watering, nutrients, etc. can trigger more self-pollination (nanners), it isn't the same thing as a full-blown hermie plant. Self-pollination is also a fairly common and natural response for your Gorgonzola in late flower to try and pollinate herself (no body else is gonna do it, it's self-help time for her). The seed progeny (from plants grown from S1 seeds) are said to likely have wider variation, i.e., you might not get the same pheno, and will show diminishing genetic stability the further out you go in generations.
2. Your current WWX grew from a seed produced by last year's WWX female, and it sounds like the WWX seeds from your WWX plant from last year were "regular" seeds (not feminized). I say that because you grew out 3 of her seeds this year and got 2 females and 1 male, and that wouldn't happen with a plant from feminized seed (seeds off a plant grown from a feminized seed will, if grown out, produce a female plant or a possibly a hermie, but not a male). This leads me to think that your friend maybe thought he was buying feminized WWX seeds from AMS, but in fact they sold him regular. That would explain why you got a male and 2 females. If true, that would suggest his male was in fact a true male with male flowers and... hopefully good stable genetics. The fact that your other female WWX this year, which you gave to a friend, hermied on him, could possibly be explained by all the stress he gave it. Your WWX this year has not hermed, I assume, and you pollinated her this year with WWX pollen from your male, right? So the Gorgonzola x WWX seeds you get this year will be good enough to grow out next year, and according to Clark in Marijuana Botany (I looked it up) will be 99% female.
Yes, that is exactly right. It is my suspicion too that it was a true male and he was sold regular seeds or the seeds were the product of a faulty feminization process. Yes I am thinking too that the resulting seeds from this year's 2 plants will be good to grow next year and future years.
 

Emeraldo

Active Member
Sorry, just to be clear I was referring to my WWX in the last line. Altho AMS state it is a Indica dominant hybrid I wondered what characteristics does it appear to you.
You mentioned previously that the Gorgonzola appeared to be a nice looking sativa. The AMS notes said it is 60% sativa 40% indica, it did have a slightly darker green leaves than the WWX which AMS states is only 40% sativa. However I wondered whether the taller sparser budding and thin leaves has perhaps more of a sativa appearance?
Thinner leaves is generally the sativa look, in terms of outward appearance of the pheno. I've not grown either of your strains. White Widow is famously indica, with so many versions and crosses. I did look up AMS Gorgonzola on the web, and the AMS website says Gorgonzola is 75% sativa. My guess is the plant that grows from your new WWX x Gorgonzola seeds will be slightly sativa leaning, maybe 55% or 60% sativa. Could be a nice balance of head and body effect. You may also find if you grow out a group of your new seeds that there will be different phenos. It's an adventure.
 
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Emeraldo

Active Member
Yes, that is exactly right. It is my suspicion too that it was a true male and he was sold regular seeds or the seeds were the product of a faulty feminization process. Yes I am thinking too that the resulting seeds from this year's 2 plants will be good to grow next year and future years.
I see AMS sells the Gorgonzola seeds as feminized only, no regular. But the WWX is available in regular as well as feminized, so it is not far fetched to think your friend actually had WWX regular. Not sure if a faulty breeding process would produce a healthy male.

I'd be interested to know what the effect of Gorgonzola, pretty high THC, they claim 25-30%. Please post a smoke report!
 

Emeraldo

Active Member
At this point, the Widow seems to have lost a bit of color, I removed leaves that became very light. I am not sure if this appearance is ok for the strain or something missing in the biology/nutrients available to it. As compared to the Gorgonzola it appears weaker in color.
Also too I found one cola branch of the Widow appeared to be dying so I removed it, thankfully it was still far enough developed not to go to waste! You can see the dying cola in the second pic. Any ideas as to what it is? Is it fairly normal for the odd cola branch to die off in late flowering? ... This time overall both plants are doing better than last year's attempt, but still it is a concern whether the dying branch is simply a feature of advanced flowering or something that I can do something about and improve on next time?
I've been thinking of trying my hand at fluxing this year. I've read your grow journal here with interest and have gone through Light Addict's thread on fluxing.

I wonder how much defoliation needs to be done. I get it, you want to clear the way for the light to reach all bud sites. But the large fan leaves on the lower parts of the plant? Aren't those still needed for photosynthesis?

Your question about the lighter color of the WWX leaves makes me want to ask: How did you adjust the nutrients for flowering? Seems yours is an "organic" grow, but not sure how you transitioned the soil into the flowering phase... Maybe the answer to the question of the light leaf color lies in a slight deficiency of some kind. In flowering, cannabis as you probably know generally needs twice as much P as N or K. My own growing method is to mix two kinds of soils: one for vegetative phase and the other for flowering, and the latter can be added to the bottom of a new pot for transplanting into the flowering soil just prior to flowering, or I can also top dress the flowering nutrient mix right onto the top of the original soil where it goes into the soil via watering. I've never had leaves go light.
 

Stunger

Well-Known Member
I see AMS sells the Gorgonzola seeds as feminized only, no regular. But the WWX is available in regular as well as feminized, so it is not far fetched to think your friend actually had WWX regular. Not sure if a faulty breeding process would produce a healthy male.

I'd be interested to know what the effect of Gorgonzola, pretty high THC, they claim 25-30%. Please post a smoke report!
I read somewhere recently how many of the THC figures are usually rather inflated or selectively picked. And I read somewhere else of a study done recently of Canadian weed that averaged out to about 14%. I really don't know what true 25% - 30% feels like as I have never had any bud that had an actual THC test result with it to give me that yardstick. I presume I have had bud with THC somewhere in the mid 20's. The most outstanding highs that I have had are what I can only assume was from weed in the 20%+ range. That was some Columbian Gold when in Australia(1980's), some great stuff in Thailand (1980's Koh Samui), some truely fantastic bud found growing while on the Everest Base Camp trek also in the 1980's, as well as some mind blowing bud since then in UK, Amsterdam, and NZ.
 

Stunger

Well-Known Member
I've been thinking of trying my hand at fluxing this year. I've read your grow journal here with interest and have gone through Light Addict's thread on fluxing.

I wonder how much defoliation needs to be done. I get it, you want to clear the way for the light to reach all bud sites. But the large fan leaves on the lower parts of the plant? Aren't those still needed for photosynthesis?

Your question about the lighter color of the WWX leaves makes me want to ask: How did you adjust the nutrients for flowering? Seems yours is an "organic" grow, but not sure how you transitioned the soil into the flowering phase... Maybe the answer to the question of the light leaf color lies in a slight deficiency of some kind. In flowering, cannabis as you probably know generally needs twice as much P as N or K. My own growing method is to mix two kinds of soils: one for vegetative phase and the other for flowering, and the latter can be added to the bottom of a new pot for transplanting into the flowering soil just prior to flowering, or I can also top dress the flowering nutrient mix right onto the top of the original soil where it goes into the soil via watering. I've never had leaves go light.
Light Addict is the master when it comes to fluxing, so many amazing grows he's done.

Re defoliation; I simply applied this more as selective pruning to, as you say, clear the way for the light to reach all the bud sites. I understand some people defoliate more aggressively than merely clearing for light penetration. altho I did some defoliation I am not sure yet how I feel on this, I will review it when this grow is over to try to understand what things I can do to improve on next time.

Yes I am growing my plants as organic grows. In fact, I have tried to follow a 'super soil' approach, a method developed by a number of people but Subcool's approach is probably the most well known. The idea is that you make a soil mix (the recipe I used is listed at the start of this journal), and let it mature/cook for, say, 3 months and use it in the first third to quarter of one's container and normal potting mix the rest. The idea is that all the nutes are in the soil and no feeding is needed. Just watering only. I have twice given a compost/worm tea, and 4 or 5 times mixed a little Molasses in with the watering, and I also applied some supersoil as a topdressing when the plants got into flowering mode. But other than that I have fed the plant any veg or flowering nutes.

You are absolutely right to question if the plant's lighter leaves are related to a nute deficiency, I have wondered that too, and that is something I will have a good think about when it comes to reviewing this grow, to try and establish what I can learn and adjust for next time. One thing is, I wasn't following a proven recipe for the Super Soil, as I found it impossible to get exactly that same ingredients as recipes created in other parts of the world. Instead, I just tried to cover the necessary nutrient bases and if anything that out of fear of over doing any nute for this first mixture I feel I went a fairly conservatively. I definitely intend to review my super soil mixture against the results and consider what could be done for improving the mixture for future grows. I will look at perhaps bumping up some of the Nitrogen, maybe more blood n bone or fish meal next time, perhaps some more of the Phosphorus rock dust and guano. Plus I looking at getting a worm farm to supply further castings and worm tea.

Next time, I will apply a thicker layer for top dressing. There are a number of other things that I am curious about regarding improvements to the next grow, not only nute related. I will put together those thoughts once harvest/dried/cured/tested, and welcome anyone's thoughts on what else I can do to bring about improvement next time. It is really great having the input of others, I find it really helpful because any suggestions or questions make me reflect deeper on things that I may be overlooking.
 

Stunger

Well-Known Member
Today I carefully checked all the plant for caterpillars and thankfully found nothing fresh, so I feel pretty certain that the spray application worked really well. I removed all visible dead sugar leaves that had browned and died from the caterpillars. The dead brown bud/sugar leaf seem only contained to the damage and not spreading like perhaps bud rot would. So a small amount has been lost to the caterpillars, and perhaps they may have affected bud growth too, I don't know. Anyway, it has been noted as a learning for next time!

I again took some pics to check on the trichome status. Not too much further to go but mostly the same as previous days, and we have a slew of forecast sunny days ahead so that's good.

I found near the top of one bud which I hadn't pollinated a single swollen seed bract (or should that be calyx), I removed it and gained a nice plump dark brown seed. My pollinating was certainly not laboratory perfect but that's ok. I have previously not found the seeded bud quality to be really any different from the unseeded colas, except the unseeded ones tend to grow thicker. When you look at the amount of trichomes covering the calyx/bract in the pics below it seems obvious they have plenty of resin on them.





 

Emeraldo

Active Member
Light Addict is the master when it comes to fluxing, so many amazing grows he's done.

Re defoliation; I simply applied this more as selective pruning to, as you say, clear the way for the light to reach all the bud sites. I understand some people defoliate more aggressively than merely clearing for light penetration. altho I did some defoliation I am not sure yet how I feel on this, I will review it when this grow is over to try to understand what things I can do to improve on next time.
LA's plants in flowering have big fan leaves on the lowest level, at least in flowering. He defoliated during early veg but lets the fan leaves grow into flowering, at least that's what his photos show. He didn't mention this aspect.

Yes I am growing my plants as organic grows. In fact, I have tried to follow a 'super soil' approach, a method developed by a number of people but Subcool's approach is probably the most well known. The idea is that you make a soil mix (the recipe I used is listed at the start of this journal), and let it mature/cook for, say, 3 months and use it in the first third to quarter of one's container and normal potting mix the rest. The idea is that all the nutes are in the soil and no feeding is needed. Just watering only. I have twice given a compost/worm tea, and 4 or 5 times mixed a little Molasses in with the watering, and I also applied some supersoil as a topdressing when the plants got into flowering mode. But other than that I have fed the plant any veg or flowering nutes.

You are absolutely right to question if the plant's lighter leaves are related to a nute deficiency, I have wondered that too, and that is something I will have a good think about when it comes to reviewing this grow, to try and establish what I can learn and adjust for next time. One thing is, I wasn't following a proven recipe for the Super Soil, as I found it impossible to get exactly that same ingredients as recipes created in other parts of the world. Instead, I just tried to cover the necessary nutrient bases and if anything that out of fear of over doing any nute for this first mixture I feel I went a fairly conservatively. I definitely intend to review my super soil mixture against the results and consider what could be done for improving the mixture for future grows. I will look at perhaps bumping up some of the Nitrogen, maybe more blood n bone or fish meal next time, perhaps some more of the Phosphorus rock dust and guano. Plus I looking at getting a worm farm to supply further castings and worm tea.
...
I don't follow a specific supersoil recipe either, if you cover the basics that ought to suffice.

I've got two organic grows going each year, one in Europe and one in California (where it's legal now). The California grow is mostly a guerilla (or "semi-guerilla") grow on a balcony like yours. Water is on a timer. The plants get hardly any attention during the grow, so I have to create a growing environment that will work for veg and flower. I just show up for harvest and the untrained plants are around 6 or 7 feet tall in their 15 gal fabric pots. I adapted Subcool's supersoil idea for this grow. The one thing I do worry about is having the enough flowering nutrients in the soil, because I cannot give it to them when they switch and need it. So I supplement the soil (Foxfarm Ocean Forest) in each pot with at least a full cup of fish bone meal, also of bone meal, but even flowering needs some slow release nitrogen, like cottonseed meal, along with the quick release (bat guano, blood meal) nitrogen for vegetative. Worm castings are a good soil builder but doesn't offer much NPK. Maybe I even add more nutrients than the plants need, but in an organic grow the plants just take what they need; all I do is add water.

I don't really know if your WWX has a nute deficiency. She's made it this far, will probably be just fine. I've just not seen that light color of leaf before.
 

Stunger

Well-Known Member
LA's plants in flowering have big fan leaves on the lowest level, at least in flowering. He defoliated during early veg but lets the fan leaves grow into flowering, at least that's what his photos show. He didn't mention this aspect.



I don't follow a specific supersoil recipe either, if you cover the basics that ought to suffice.

I've got two organic grows going each year, one in Europe and one in California (where it's legal now). The California grow is mostly a guerilla (or "semi-guerilla") grow on a balcony like yours. Water is on a timer. The plants get hardly any attention during the grow, so I have to create a growing environment that will work for veg and flower. I just show up for harvest and the untrained plants are around 6 or 7 feet tall in their 15 gal fabric pots. I adapted Subcool's supersoil idea for this grow. The one thing I do worry about is having the enough flowering nutrients in the soil, because I cannot give it to them when they switch and need it. So I supplement the soil (Foxfarm Ocean Forest) in each pot with at least a full cup of fish bone meal, also of bone meal, but even flowering needs some slow release nitrogen, like cottonseed meal, along with the quick release (bat guano, blood meal) nitrogen for vegetative. Worm castings are a good soil builder but doesn't offer much NPK. Maybe I even add more nutrients than the plants need, but in an organic grow the plants just take what they need; all I do is add water.

I don't really know if your WWX has a nute deficiency. She's made it this far, will probably be just fine. I've just not seen that light color of leaf before.
I feel that my WWX has a nute deficiency, and will review and try and work out what I could do better next time. This grow of the WWX and Gorgonzola is just my first attempt at using a super soil type approach. I was reluctant to risk overdoing it with anything and risk the plant never even getting to this stage, where at least I have got some very usable bud almost ready for harvest.

I drilled holes in my 50 liter/12 gallon pots and used a landscaping fabric liner, my feeling is that the outside of the plastic container heating up in the sunshine maybe isn't good for them too. But yes, I need to evaluate my super soil for how I can adjust it a little. I do feel that next time I would apply one of two 'thicker' layers of super soil as a top dressing, first taking off the mulch layer and reapplyed over the top dressing, I found this seemed to stimulate some vigorous root growth to the top of the pot, which must be a good thing, next time I a deeper layer of top dressing may help more. I need to better understand the nutes that are involved in my current super soil mixture and the nature of them being quick releasing or slow releasing, and what impact does it have if the mixture is 'maturing' in storage in my compost tumbler for months before using for a grow etc, are they all there are ready for the plant or has the soil biology used them up in other ways, as the soil is 'living' (mine still has some worms living in it (10 months after it being mixed), I hope it makes it better and more good nutes available, but does time do that in this sort of example or do they get more lost/used up over time, I don't know.
 

Emeraldo

Active Member
Stunger it occurred to me that your WWX's "nute deficiency" might also be the result of an incorrect pH. Do you pH the water?

Another question for you: is landscaping fabric porous enough? I have some in my garden and it great for keeping the weeds down because no light gets through, and it lets water through. But air? I don't know the answer. I guess air would get in with water.
 

Stunger

Well-Known Member
Stunger it occurred to me that your WWX's "nute deficiency" might also be the result of an incorrect pH. Do you pH the water?

Another question for you: is landscaping fabric porous enough? I have some in my garden and it great for keeping the weeds down because no light gets through, and it lets water through. But air? I don't know the answer. I guess air would get in with water.
Well yes it is a possibility, I don't have a pH meter, after reading up on them it appeared only quality meters like Bluelab gave dependable accurate results. The $10 meter's were said to give unreliable measurements. Besides, the super soil approach was said to not need concern over the pH, and as mine still has worms living in it, not many as I don't feed it, it has simply been mixed in my compost tumbler about 10 months ago and remains in it for when I next need some, I thought if the worms are happy then probably that is a good sign for the pH. So I decide not to shell out for an expensive pH meter. My feeling is that it is nute related, with the light yellowing leaves a possible sign of Nitrogen deficiency, I can imagine so, as the plants were transplanted up to their final pot on December 9th, then for 3 months of the plant appeared very healthy and only after that did the yellowing occur, so I think they ran out of something, I guess Nitrogen.

Another observation was, that the WWX was in the bigger pot which I had drilled bigger holes in it, of the 4 plants I started the grow with, this WWX pot was the one with the biggest most drilled holes in. The plant was also by far the most vigorous, so I wondered whether the pot gave it's roots aeration over and above the aeration of the lesser drilled pots and as a result it grew more vigorously until it perhaps simply ran short of nutes?

Re porosity of landscape fabric; The roll I purchase from the garden store, was just a black lightweight cloth that you can see thru when held against the light. I believe it allows great aeration. If anything, if the drilled holes allow a too aggressive loss of moisture on hot days I feel the fabric liner is probably helpful in keeping some moisture in while still allowing lots of aeration.
 
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