Top nodes are bending down

[joyjason]

The top nodes start to bend down in the morning when they receive sunlight and then back up during the evening. shows signs of the flowering stage beginning. I've been growing on my balcony, so she has plenty of airflow. Temperature around 25 - 30C. Humidity: 40-60%

Light schedule: 12/12
Nutes (Organic): groundnut cake, neem cake, liquid seawead

 

[Lerugged]

Are you possibly Overwatering or under watering?
Looks like she needs a bit more water to me.
Question, does she perk up after watering or continue to hang down even after watering?
If she hangs down after watering then let the pot dry out a bit. If she perks up straight, you will need to water her more.
Gut feel is she needs more water but test it and you will see which it is.
Good luck

 

[SmokingWings]

The top nodes start to bend down in the morning when they receive sunlight and then back up during the evening.

It does look like more water needed.

Are these the same auto-flowers you were showing us in the other message? Might be since you list of fertilizers is the same. Those plants were in smaller containers and I am wondering if these are the same or plants from different seeds. Are they also being grown in small containers?

Also looks like the plants could use more light. Not "more" as in longer hours but "more" as in stronger light. Though, longer hours will be OK if they are "autoflowers".

 

[joyjason]

It does look like more water needed.

Are these the same auto-flowers you were showing us in the other message? Might be since you list of fertilizers is the same. Those plants were in smaller containers and I am wondering if these are the same or plants from different seeds. Are they also being grown in small containers?

Also looks like the plants could use more light. Not "more" as in longer hours but "more" as in stronger light. Though, longer hours will be OK if they are "autoflowers".

Watering days they seem to be strong. But after they do get back up after a few hours without watering again.

I have set of autoflower and photoperiod seeds. The above is photoperiod and 2 out of 3 turned out to be males. Have noticed the leaf edge are curling up slightly after receiving light. I assume its probably out of heat stress. The containers are 5 gallons. Can see its switching from veg to flowering. And may be more energy is required as its producing buds wherever it can.

 

[Delps8]

Watering days they seem to be strong. But after they do get back up after a few hours without watering again.

I have set of autoflower and photoperiod seeds. The above is photoperiod and 2 out of 3 turned out to be males. Have noticed the leaf edge are curling up slightly after receiving light. I assume its probably out of heat stress. The containers are 5 gallons. Can see its switching from veg to flowering. And may be more energy is required as its producing buds wherever it can.

Those plants are showing classic symptoms of not enough light. Specifically, large internodal spaces, limited foliage, and their height.

Re. heat stress - 30° and 40% is tough on cannabis but it's not (just) the heat, it's the (heat and) humidity.

Vapor pressure deficit ("VPD") is calculated from temperature and RH. At the current stage of growth, your plants will grow optimally at a VPD of 1.2±. At 30° and 40%, the VPD is almost 1.9 which is drier than it should be for actually drying your crop.

And may be more energy is required as its producing buds wherever it can.

Switch that 'round - without more energy, they won't be able to produce the maximal amount of bud.

Plants get "energy" when the metabolize the glucose that they create during the process of photosynthesis. Light and CO2 are the inputs to photosynthesis, oxygen and glucose are the outputs. ATM, with the reduced amount of light coming in, there's not a lot of glucose being produced. More light and/or more CO2 would help.

 

[joyjason]

Those plants are showing classic symptoms of not enough light. Specifically, large internodal spaces, limited foliage, and their height.

Re. heat stress - 30° and 40% is tough on cannabis but it's not (just) the heat, it's the (heat and) humidity.

Vapor pressure deficit ("VPD") is calculated from temperature and RH. At the current stage of growth, your plants will grow optimally at a VPD of 1.2±. At 30° and 40%, the VPD is almost 1.9 which is drier than it should be for actually drying your crop.


Switch that 'round - without more energy, they won't be able to produce the maximal amount of bud.

Plants get "energy" when the metabolize the glucose that they create during the process of photosynthesis. Light and CO2 are the inputs to photosynthesis, oxygen and glucose are the outputs. ATM, with the reduced amount of light coming in, there's not a lot of glucose being produced. More light and/or more CO2 would help.

Great insights bro, I have an sf1000D in support. It serves for a small size autoflower as well. I dont use to turn on the light in the morning as they receive natural light, but will run them for 12hrs. I think co2 wouldnt be a concern as it gets fresh outside air which is mostly around 400ppm.

 

[bluter]

are you putting them outside or just letting them hang out behind a window ?
they are definitely not getting enough quality light during daytime.

 

[SmokingWings]

Watering days they seem to be strong. But after they do get back up after a few hours without watering again.

A good sign that the wilt we see in the photograph in the first message is caused by not enough water. I have the feeling that you are not watering properly. You mention that the plants are in 5 gallon containers which is good so maybe you are not giving enough when you are watering and the pot dries out soon. Give the plants water when the plants first start to show signs that they need it. Do not wait until they wilt like what we see happening in the photo. Do not water just because it is a watering day on the calendar.

I think you mentioned in your other thread that you are growing on a balcony. Is that right? Is it enclosed by glass windows?

And may be more energy is required as its producing buds wherever it can.

Switch that 'round - without more energy, they won't be able to produce the maximal amount of bud.

Yep on both comments. The plant will require more energy because it is going to try to produce buds where ever it can. And, the plants will need more energy otherwise the buds will remain small. There will be a lot of tiny flower buds without the amount of trichomes to produce quality buds.

 

[SmokingWings]

Can see its switching from veg to flowering.

One other question. What season is it where you are at? As in, when is the date for the first day of spring?

 

[joyjason]

I have the feeling that you are not watering properly.

Thats more likely, I have watered them more and covered the soil with some dried leaves to maintain moisture. And it looks healthy.

I think you mentioned in your other thread that you are growing on a balcony. Is that right? Is it enclosed by glass windows?

Yes, but the window glass is clear. Atleast it would allow 90% of the light to pass through if I am not wrong. I can keep the window opened, but just need to be suspicious.

There will be a lot of tiny flower buds without the amount of trichomes to produce quality buds.

Is it ok to cut off the lowest branches at this time, but I dont want to increase the harvest time in trade with the bud size at this moment.

 

[bluter]

i think they are more light deprived than anything. they don't lift if they can't transpire and that is light driven.

 

[Delps8]

Great insights bro, I have an sf1000D in support. It serves for a small size autoflower as well. I dont use to turn on the light in the morning as they receive natural light, but will run them for 12hrs. I think co2 wouldnt be a concern as it gets fresh outside air which is mostly around 400ppm.

It's great that you've got that extra light!

The hang height + dimmer setting are unknown because you've already got light coming in. If you can score a lux meter, you could nail the settings precisely. Lacking that, the only way I can think of estimating the current DLI ("daily light integral" = how much light the plant is getting over a 24 hour period) is to use a DLI map or a page like this. Not much DLI above the 49th parallel ATM.

You can geek out on this page - if you enter lat and long or a US ZIP code, it will generate a chart that shows the changes in the sun's height over the course of the year.

Re. CO2 - that room almost looks like a sun room /atreum. If it suits you, spend some time in the room (read a book, watch/talk to the plants) and you'll be adding CO2 to the room. Ambient C02 hasn't even hit 420 yet, so every little bit helps.

 

[joyjason]

Ambient C02 hasn't even hit 420 yet, so every little bit helps

I love watching them grow often . I stay in 1st floor of the building in a high traffic area so I suppose the co2 released from vehicles nearby would contribute a lot.

Not much DLI above the 49th parallel ATM.

The first quarter of the year in my location seems to have a higher DLI. Can see the Veg state of the plant is capable of having more of the light. I have adjusted the grow light, such that the sunlight and grow light doesnt hit the same area of the plant.

 

[Delps8]

I love watching them grow often . I stay in 1st floor of the building in a high traffic area so I suppose the co2 released from vehicles nearby would contribute a lot.

The more the merrier!

The first quarter of the year in my location seems to have a higher DLI. Can see the Veg state of the plant is capable of having more of the light. I have adjusted the grow light, such that the sunlight and grow light doesnt hit the same area of the plant.

Well, that puts paid to my theory-you're not in the Great White North (Canada)! Where are you located - Aus?

Re. the growlightmeter.com DLI chart - it's very popular but the DLI values in that chart have no basis in research and are well below the light levels where cannabis will thrive. Having said that, my experience has been that. the ramp up veg for "C02 required" is about where my non-CO2-enhanced plants max out. However, the idea of dropping DLI in flower and then slowly ramping up is novel and unsupported by data.

Shane at Migro is another source that recommends "modest" levels of light and, as with GLM, he does not reference any research in the videos where he provides that recommendation.

I'm not arguing that you won't get a decent crop by following those light levels but, as Bugbee says, you will be "leaving money on the table".

The following table was quite interesting:

For every 50µmols increase in PPFD, the dry weight yield increased by about 5%.

Having said that, for the first few grows I did, I fed my plants with modest levels of light. Within a couple of months of starting to grow cannabis, I had read a number of research papers and had watched and rewatched all of the Bugbee videos but I still stayed with light levels in the 40's. Last summer, while watching a de Bacco video (YouTube) for the nth time about light I finally "turned it up to 11".

My approach is to get plants to the light saturation point ("LST") ASAP. That's 800-1000µmols for cannabis (strain dependent). At that point, the limiting factor is the amount of CO2 available to the plant (photons and CO2 are inputs to photosynthesis with O2 and glucose being the outputs). As Bugbee states in multiple videos and in published research, they have pushed cannabis as high as 2000µmols, in a CO2 enriched environment, and net photosynthesis continued to increase.

I don't run CO2 but, as you'll see from my grow journals, I provide my plants with a lot of light. Many growers routinely run their plants close to the 1000µmol mark, myself included. ATM, my plants, two Chemdogs at day 21, just went from a DLI of 29 to 35 and I expect to have them in the low 60's in the next few weeks.

My lighting plan for this grow:

Yeh, up at 0400 - just woke up in the middle of the night and, lo and behold, my WiFi network was on the fritz…

This is the DLI chart for my location in Orange County, Southern California (next door to LA county)

 

[cbdhemp808]

Hi @joyjason, and welcome to the forum!

I'll just chime in here to add to what others have said about watering. Make sure you're getting a proper wet/dry cycle. Your 5 gal pots should feel very light as an indication it's time to water again. When you water, make sure it's thorough and you're getting runoff. Drooping leaves and tops are a possible sign of over-watering. If that's the case, let those pots dry out.

The worst-case scenario I have experienced with over-watering is "damping off," which is when fungus attacks the stem (i.e. stem rot). This tends to happen when the soil is too wet for too long, temps are warm, and soil is high in nitrogen. Evidence of damping off on the stem will show usually just above the soil line. On my plants, I've seen this as a deformation of the stem. This can kill a plant, but perhaps not always.

happy growing!

 

[joyjason]

damping off on the stem will show usually just above the soil line

Is this what you are referring to. But my top layer of the soil is already dry after watering yesterday.

 

[cbdhemp808]

Yep... possibly a mild case. A worse case will show some pinching/flattening of the stem, and scaring. A really bad case would be rippling. I had a plant die from this that otherwise looked fantastic.

Don't go by just whether or not the soil surface is dry. You have to pick up the pot an inch or two off the ground to feel the weight, and get accustomed to the weight of: 1) freshly watered, 2) mid- wet/dry cycle, 3) dry. It's best to err toward dry, and your plants will let you know anyway if they need water, because they will wilt a little.

 

[SmokingWings]

Is this what you are referring to. But my top layer of the soil is already dry after watering yesterday.

Damping Off Disease almost always affects seedlings that are a week up to 3 weeks old. After that the stem is often resistant to the disease. It is caused by a pathogen or disease that is related to root rot. At least I am reading more articles that are saying so. Do a google search on Damping Off and get an idea of what it looks like when it happens.

The plant in the photo looks like a typical healthy stem to me. The bark surface seems to be hardening up like it is supposed to.

 

[cbdhemp808]

Damping Off Disease almost always affects seedlings that are a week up to 3 weeks old. After that the stem is often resistant to the disease. It is caused by a pathogen or disease that is related to root rot. At least I am reading more articles that are saying so. Do a google search on Damping Off and get an idea of what it looks like when it happens.

The plant in the photo looks like a typical healthy stem to me. The bark surface seems to be hardening up like it is supposed to.

I have experienced losing a plant that was much older than 3 weeks to stem rot just above the soil line, which I think was caused by a pot drainage issue (too wet). So, I'm not sure about the distinction between damping off and stem rot... for all I know, they are the same thing. One manifests in a small, young stem, while the other attacks bigger stems.

I'd say the parts next to the blue lines (below) are completely normal. It's the part next to the green line that concerns me. This is what I've seen associated with a pathogen, but the appearance comes in different forms. The more disrupted the surface of the stem is, the worse the infection. I've seen this turn into ripples and small blisters. I have two plants right now that are 4 ft tall in 2 gal pots that seem to have survived an attack of this pathogen, because the plants look very healthy. The wounds seem to have scarred over, but I'm not sure. I topped them last night to clone the tops. I have a feeling that if the disease has progressed enough, it can be systemic in the plant.

 

[SmokingWings]

I have experienced losing a plant that was much older than 3 weeks to stem rot just above the soil line,

Yep, it can happen to plants more than 3 weeks old but the usual time frame is between the day it sprouts to about 3 weeks old.

I'd say the parts next to the blue lines (below) are completely normal. It's the part next to the green line that concerns me.

I don't know if it means anything but I noticed the same areas you marked off with the blue & green lines yesterday. They colors on the stem line up with the scars from where the older nodes were.