Bud Rot & Mold vs. Microbes

[Azimuth]

Hello from Finland

Hello, Sihikeisari from Finland!

And welcome to the discussion.

This is certainly a worldwide issue. Interesting that only some of your plants were affected. Something in the gene pool no doubt.

Hey Azi - Thanks!!!! I started a 5 g bucket with Pondweed (coonstail) and a good handful of leaf mold on Aug. 2 - then got sick as hell with covid so I've only been able to shuffle back and take a quick look on the 6th. I can see it has been working, and yes!! stinks like hell !!!! I plan to let it work a bit and use it at about a 10% solution as a fertilizer. Sound feasible??
I will admit - I didn't read thru this yet - my head ain't werkin' good yet!!!

The plants won't mind the stink (but your neighbors might ) I'm not familiar with the nutrient profile of coonstail, but the 10% solution is probably a bit strong. Most of the plant extracts are used at a dilution rate of 20-300 times or a maximum of about 5%. Start weak to make sure your plants are not negatively affected.

 

[Azimuth]

I think the first variable could be usage strength. In the Jadam book, Master Cho states that it needs to be diluted before use, and certainly should be if used as a soil drench. But @Bode says he uses it straight up when applied as a foliar.

So, that's what I'm going to do. I have a batch finishing now that's gone about 18 hours and is showing nice healthy bubbles formed at the surface. The flower room wakes up in a few hours and everyone is going to get a shower with the full strength solution, and I'll also water in some in diluted form to increase the microbial action in the soil.

For this batch I used 1/2 liter of non-chlorinated water, 1/2 teaspoon of potato flakes, 1/4 teaspoon of fresh worm castings and a bit of sea salt. I'll screen the mix through a metal sink strainer, add some aloe or a drop or two of dish soap, pour it in a hand sprayer and have at 'em.

I have two plants just starting week 8 of flower that I pollinated, and two new plants just forming budlets. The seeded plants are already showing a few patches of browning leaves which I assume is mold. Normally I'd just cut those parts out and try to save the rest of the plant, but this will be an interesting test to see if the microbe spray can at least halt the spread of the issue or not.

I recently harvested another plant of this strain that I also pollinated and frankly got more seeds than I'll ever use, so if the microbes can't halt the progression and the whole plant is lost, I'm OK with that. It is for science, after all.

Ok, 4 hours in and I'm already making changes.

The two seeded plants both got full strength since there is what appears to be mold on one of them already and so it's a good test case to see what, if any, effect it has. But, since I've never used it this strong before, one of the new budlet plants got it at half strength this round and the control got nothing. It's not that I don't trust Bode or anything, but I thought I'd ease into the stronger strength.

All of the plants also got a soil drench with the solution at a 1:10 dilution rate along with some fish extract, worm casting tea and a top dressing of comfrey and horsetail fern.

The latter isn't really related to the experiment, but the microbe solution should also help break down that organic matter.

 

[scottreid1966]

Count me in, Azi Not sure that my first try at JMS worked out. No bubbles but used baked potatoe. Smells like crap also.

 

[cbdhemp808]

This is a great idea, Azi... not sure I have time for it, BUT... I sure am in mold central here in tropical Hawaii. Are you asking for specific formulas?... maybe I could do an aerated worm tea, because I'm already familiar with brewing that. I have the GSC x Kush that is a good subject, since she usually always has some bud rot problems, more or less. I have 2 identical clones in the veg house right now in 5 gal pots, same soil, same conditions. I would plan on spraying the tea once moved to flower house, but before bud formation. So, one would get the tea, one wouldn't.

 

[Azimuth]

Count me in, Azi Not sure that my first try at JMS worked out. No bubbles but used baked potatoe. Smells like crap also.

Welcome, Scott. Practice makes perfect (well, perfect practice makes perfect, but you get the idea.)

If you want to share how you made your last batch maybe we can figure out together what went wrong.

This is a great idea, Azi... not sure I have time for it, BUT... I sure am in mold central here in tropical Hawaii. Are you asking for specific formulas?... maybe I could do an aerated worm tea, because I'm already familiar with brewing that. I have the GSC x Kush that is a good subject, since she usually always has some bud rot problems, more or less. I have 2 identical clones in the veg house right now in 5 gal pots, same soil, same conditions. I would plan on spraying the tea once moved to flower house, but before bud formation. So, one would get the tea, one wouldn't.

Hey cbd, that would be a great alternative. @ChefDGreen is thinking more along the lines of an aerated tea as well so that would give an alternative to consider and compare and contrast. And your two clones that you've grown before with mold issues seems like perfect candidates!

 

[Stunger]

Cheers Azi for the tag, this is a great line of research and discussion!

 

[Azimuth]

Cheers Azi for the tag, this is a great line of research and discussion!

I figured it might be of interest to you. And you'll get to see any conclusions we might reach before you start your next grow.

 

[ReservoirDog]

Hello, Sihikeisari from Finland!

Tervetuloa Sihikeisari! Where in Finland do you live, generally, if I may ask?

maximum of about 5%. Start weak to make sure your plants are not negatively affected.

Seconded.

Ok, 4 hours in and I'm already making changes.

Azimuth if I could ask for some clarifications...

So, you're looking to have everyone use a DIY, locally-derived microbe-only spray on at least one plant and keep a control plant clean, yes?

What you don't mean is for us to use any old topical spray, commercial or DIY, willy nilly, just so long as there are microbes of some kind in it? Test spray needs to follow the instructions you provided, as much as is reasonable, yes?

Meaning, we're welcome to use other stuff on other plants, but need to keep two comparable plants, in same location, free of other treatments so we can apply the experiment's prescribed spray on one, yes?

And we're not talking lactus either, correct?

Soooo we're looking for an anti-fungal enzyme/bacteria type or complex, and this, we hope to discover, can be found in our natural, unmolested local soils? OK, maybe not explicitly antifungal, possibly just capable of out-competing the dangerous fungus?

OK, almost done! We're talking buds, primarily, here... not, or not just, leaf? Mebbe some Strep and/or Tricodermas... I wonder what local soil types here might give me a decent chance of wrangling those two up...

Please let me know if there's anything I can do to help besides my own experiment.

 

[Azimuth]

Hey ResDog,

I think the goal is to (hopefully) confirm some growers' successful results in battling mold and bud rot using microbes.

I offered a simple recipe to use but a couple of responders have suggested they'd rather use an aerobic version.

I'm hoping to come out of this with an answer to the question of whether the microbes can, in fact, be used successfully in the battle. Maybe not always, but often enough to give growers an option.

So, if you think you've got a better or different thing you'd like to test and report on, have at it. But the idea is to also include an untreated plant, preferably a clone of the test plany in the same environment.

I'm not necessarily trying to prove the Jadam solution is the way to go, but merely using it as an easy way for many growers to test the theory.

And yes, leaf and bud. Mostly bud because come on that's what we all really care about, right?

I've heard very lackluster results about the success of LAB, particularly when compared to the Jadam version.

I'm not opposed to alternative ideas, but the version I'm proposing is easily sourced as microbes from leaf mold soil or worm castings should provide the diversity necessary.

 

[Danishoes21]

Hi AZi, thanks for the tag.

Count me in. As you might know now from my current grow I have been using several teas, fermented green manure and several other natural/microbial extractions as part of a fertilizing plan and as preventive use agaisnt some common pest. Its an ongoing experiment/grow. The whole thing has been compromised since I can no longer keep the 3 times a week schedule.

I have moved the plants to a new location and will continue to use these methods. I will keep you updated as much as possible.

 

[ReservoirDog]

Thanks for taking the time with me on this, Azimuth. I want to make a useful contribution, and I'm clear now, thank you, Herr Professor. Must now go and see what tragedy has befallen Comrade Danishoes...

 

[StoneOtter]

This stuff is not an exact science so approximate amounts are fine. The original recipe from Master Cho uses whole potatoes so you're good to go.

I only adapted it for smaller versions since I usually make mine by the half liter and a whole potato seems excessive. For reference, I used a whole potato when I first started out and was making a 4 gallon bucket of the stuff.

You know? On second thought the flakes might be easier and I'm all over that today!
I have a question. How do you filter it so it doesn't clog the sprayer nozzle?
Edit: @Bode you may want to watch this thread. You're already full speed ahead with it right?

 

[ReservoirDog]

double strain it with cheesecloth that's folded over on itself enough to be a fine particulate filter. I also have a plastic jar with 1 cm hole in lid and bottom removed. Packed with stuffing from old pillows (synthetic) or stuffed animals it works quite well. Prob move up to a halved 2-litre pop bottle in this instance, however.

 

[cbdhemp808]

This is off topic, but just wanted to let folks know I've got a potting soil analysis up:

Is My Potting Soil Too Hot? Commercial Soil Analysis

Analysis by cbdhemp808 :thanks: What is the best NPK value for potting soil for growing cannabis? Some quick googling, maybe not accurate... 0.030 - 0.006 - 0.022 (veg mix) 0.007 - 0.010 - 0.020 (flower mix) 0.025 - 0.008 - 0.030 (all-purpose mix) So, these commercial potting soils – FF and...

www.420magazine.com

If you'd like to discuss, click the link and head over there.

 

[Bode]

Highya Azimuth, SO, guys,

Year before last I used lactobacillus serum as a microbe solution to spray on the buds trying to curb botrytis. It worked well for the most part. That serum is derived from anaerobic process also. After filtering, I sprayed full strength on the buds (dripping wet) the day before budrot weather (temps 60-70, high humidity) arrived. I still had some budrot, but only a couple oz for all 7 plants. Last year I used cooked white rice (Cho said rice was the best substrate) with some leaf mold I got from a hardwood forest (as per instructions). That combination made an active solution with many microbes and many bubbles. The smell is a little smelly, but not much. I brew the microbe solution in my cellar using an aquarium heater set on 80 degrees. I sprayed the new mixture on as before, a day before budrot weather set in. Everyday when I checked (a.m.) sometimes there was some budrot, sometimes not. But not very much. The strains I grew didn't have any mold resistance built in (genetics). I was pleased to only have a little. This year I have Super Silver Haze which is a mold resistant strain, and Mobsta which has some resistance to botrytis built in also. Mobsta was bred for Maine's climate. Since budrot only affects the buds, I wait to spray when the buds are bigger (late September, early October) until chop. No residual tastes or smells from spraying close to harvest. This year I will wash some of the bud to compare.

My understanding of this process is to spray the buds to get the microbes working to eradicate any harmful bacteria before it has a chance to colonize. Spraying before budrot weather allows the microbes to become established before the budrot spores arrive.

In a nutshell, that's my philosophy and procedures. Happy Smokin'

 

[Azimuth]

Highya Azimuth, SO, guys,

Year before last I used lactobacillus serum as a microbe solution to spray on the buds trying to curb botrytis. It worked well for the most part. That serum is derived from anaerobic process also. After filtering, I sprayed full strength on the buds (dripping wet) the day before budrot weather (temps 60-70, high humidity) arrived. I still had some budrot, but only a couple oz for all 7 plants. Last year I used cooked white rice (Cho said rice was the best substrate) with some leaf mold I got from a hardwood forest (as per instructions). That combination made an active solution with many microbes and many bubbles. The smell is a little smelly, but not much. I brew the microbe solution in my cellar using an aquarium heater set on 80 degrees. I sprayed the new mixture on as before, a day before budrot weather set in. Everyday when I checked (a.m.) sometimes there was some budrot, sometimes not. But not very much. The strains I grew didn't have any mold resistance built in (genetics). I was pleased to only have a little. This year I have Super Silver Haze which is a mold resistant strain, and Mobsta which has some resistance to botrytis built in also. Mobsta was bred for Maine's climate. Since budrot only affects the buds, I wait to spray when the buds are bigger (late September, early October) until chop. No residual tastes or smells from spraying close to harvest. This year I will wash some of the bud to compare.

My understanding of this process is to spray the buds to get the microbes working to eradicate any harmful bacteria before it has a chance to colonize. Spraying before budrot weather allows the microbes to become established before the budrot spores arrive.

In a nutshell, that's my philosophy and procedures. Happy Smokin'

Thanks, Bode! Great recap of your process. Thanks for sharing.

How would you compare the LAB to the JMS in terms of success?

 

[ChefDGreen]

Hi Chef,

When you say "biocomplete compost" is that just a well done, aerobically made compost or is there a purchased product you are referencing?

I am not referencing a production, I’m saying any producer that uses microscope analysis to ensure the entire food web is present in their compost

And, if just a well made compost, have you a good set of instructions and materials you'd offer to make sure everyone was doing things similarly?

For the purpose of data collection I believe were better off all using the same compost

A logistical challenge to be sure. Microscopy skills are certainly the best way to verify what you have, but I think impractical for most, no?

Maybe impractical for most to learn, but there are plenty of labs out there that do the analysis and I don’t think it’s very expensive.

If it's aerobically made tea, it would certainly degrade noticeably during shipment, so I would think an on-site analysis would be the only way to really know what you have made.

You can overnight a sample of tea if you really want to know you’ve done it right. As long as plenty of air is in the container with it, it will stay aerobic during the shipping due to the constant jostling.

Why do you think aerobic microbes would be better than anaerobic? I'm not trying to be argumentative, but why one over the other? I suppose one argument would be that the flower and leaf surface are in an aerobic environment. But I've not seen the studies from Dr Elaine Ingram who studied the aerobic versions of tea. Thoughts?

I don’t think aerobic microbes would be better. I know they are. Plants are obligate aerobes. They absolutely must be in an environment that has a concentration of oxygen above 6 parts per million or they will have serious health problems. Spraying microbes that thrive in a reduced oxygen condition is going to push the surface of your leaves and the condition in your soil into reduced oxygen because that’s what being promoted. The fungi yeasts and bacteria you’re brewing up in a bucket of putrified organic matter will not do the work that their trophic level is supposed to be doing. Instead of sequestering N, P, K, Mg, S, Ca, Fe, etc for the plant to later take up, the anaerobic bacteria are going to be gassing off these elements by creating things like CH4, N2O, SO2, NH3. That’s the stink you’re smelling, all of your nutrients being lost to the air.

The positive effect you’re seeing from spraying this kind of a solution on your plants is the effect of using a preservative. Anaerobic bacteria drop the pH of the solution in which they exist by creating organic acids. This low ph solution is why it kind of works on mold. Which, if that’s your management plan you’re better off with a Citric acid solution and leave the nasty anaerobic organisms out of the equation

 

[Bode]

I don't know much about aerobic vs anaerobic microbes. I can say this for me, using Jadam microbe solution has made the biggest difference in plant health, growth, and product of all the plants I use it on, including cannabis, vegetables, and houseplants. One gentleman last name of Cho spent his entire life researching how to increase fertility organically. His son, also named Cho, has researched for 30 more years to improve his father's work. That logic base is what I use to garden by. Happy Smokin'

 

[Bode]

://scialert.net/fulltext/?doi=ja.2010.102.110&org=11. I found this while browsing the effects of organic vs organic nutrients. just needs https in front of url. Happy Smokin'

 

[ChefDGreen]

://scialert.net/fulltext/?doi=ja.2010.102.110&org=11. I found this while browsing the effects of organic vs organic nutrients. just needs https in front of url. Happy Smokin'

Neither practices in that paper are really ideal. Spreading fresh manure isn’t a great idea.. manure harbors pathogens