Bud Rot & Mold vs. Microbes

[Melville Hobbes]

Microbes can’t be washed off, they form glues that adhere them to the plants’ surface. You need 80-100psi to rip those microbes off of that leaf surface. A little rain isn’t going to do anything.

….. well, that’s the case for aerobic microbes in a properly made compost tea. I can’t speak for the anaerobic concoctions

If you're referring to biofilm, both types of bacteria form them.

 

[ChefDGreen]

If you're referring to biofilm, both types of bacteria form them.

I was speaking to the holding power of the glue. I’m not sure if the psi requirements are the same. I personally would never put out anaerobic microorganisms in my garden.

Biofilm is typically used to refer to the build up that happens on equipment surfaces. It’s more than just the glues produced, it’s also dead microorganisms.

 

[Melville Hobbes]

I was speaking to the holding power of the glue. I’m not sure if the psi requirements are the same. I personally would never put out anaerobic microorganisms in my garden.

Biofilm is typically used to refer to the build up that happens on equipment surfaces. It’s more than just the glues produced, it’s also dead microorganisms.

It is used for some biological settings too, the formation of biofilm is one of the reasons some strains of bacteria form resistance to antibiotics.
It's also why mouthwash isn't enough to clean your teeth. You need the mechanical action of brushing your teeth to break up the biofilm formed by the oral bacteria.
Not the same situation, but still, interesting.

 

[Azimuth]

Microbes can’t be washed off, they form glues that adhere them to the plants’ surface. You need 80-100psi to rip those microbes off of that leaf surface. A little rain isn’t going to do anything.

….. well, that’s the case for aerobic microbes in a properly made compost tea. I can’t speak for the anaerobic concoctions

Thanks for that, Chef. I often wondered about rain clearing the leaf surface and the cycle starting all over. From what you are saying that is not the situation at all.

So, that may help answer the frequency question, especially for outdoor growers. No need to reapply after a rain.

I know the life cycle of these things is quite short. Have you a recomendation on when in the flowering cycle and how often to apply the microbes?

What is better? Aerobic microbes or anaerobic?

Better? The academic studies would lead you to aerobic since many of the really bad microbes are of the anaerobic type. Doesn't mean you'll have them if brewing the anaerobic version, but certainly better chances. I'm not aware of any scientific studies on using anaerobic microbes in the way being proposed since I think the academic reasearch has been mostly focused on aerobic.

That's a fairly recent focus however, as our ancestors did not have access to air pumps and other technology we use today. Much of their versions were anaerobic and seemed to work fine for them.

If you're referring to biofilm, both types of bacteria form them.

Thanks, Mel. It would seem to be a common trait amongst the class of biota, and not limited to certain types within them.

It is used for some biological settings too, the formation of biofilm is one of the reasons some strains of bacteria form resistance to antibiotics.
It's also why mouthwash isn't enough to clean your teeth. You need the mechanical action of brushing your teeth to break up the biofilm formed by the oral bacteria.
Not the same situation, but still, interesting.

I like your analogy. I know when I make my various concoctions, most of the vessels clean up fairly well with a spray of water but there is always some residue that requires a mechanical scrub. And, the longer it sits, the harder it seems to be to clean.

 

[StoneOtter]

So I have a ceramic crock I picked up years ago just for things like this. I think it's 3 gallon cap. with a loose fitting lid. If I do use it I'd not fill it but make enough to work the space. Maybe a gallon?ish? Anyway, lid off right?

 

[Azimuth]

So I have a ceramic crock I picked up years ago just for things like this. I think it's 3 gallon cap. with a loose fitting lid. If I do use it I'd not fill it but make enough to work the space. Maybe a gallon?ish? Anyway, lid off right?

Hey Stone.

Nope, lid on, at least for the JMS version, although when I use my brewer I cover that as well come to think of it.

I don't know if a tight fitting lid would matter all that much except for the fertilizer versions and especially the ones high in nitrogen. Those things could wake of the dead thinking there was a reunion going on with the stink they make!

Incidently, rather than asking permission to use the kitchen scrubbers to clean off my vessels, I use an old toothbrush. I melted the neck back a bit over a candle to make it easier to scrub the flat surface of the bottom.

I make my quantities in the amounts I'm planning to use them. I tried using it straight up the other night to no apparent negative effect, so I'll plan on doing that going forward.

My sprayer is about half a liter so that's become my standard amount unless it's watering day and I'm adding extracts to the fertigation liquid. I do that for both indoor and outdoor gardens so on those days I go bigger.

In my environment the mix takes about 18 hours to reach maximum bubbling so I count backwards from when I want to use it to determine when to start a new batch, and I usually make a couple of batches a week to use in fertigation.

 

[Danishoes21]

I have absolute blind faith in anaerobic extraction/brew. Making it virtually impossible to allow aerobic bacteria to take space in the breaking down of the organic matter.
What I saw yesterday with my horsetail/nettle/molasses mix got me thinking that if the molecules breaking down everything are missing oxygen as soon as you open the jar and then mix with water, molecules that are in need to pair with oxygen will do so but won’t take long enough to allow the incubation of aerobic bacteria that could or could not be beneficial.
My other guess is the lack of oxygen in the brew/extract doesn’t really have any roll in the oxygen needs of the root system.

Im just throwing it out there based on what has happened in my current grow. If I can I will post a photo later on explaining some of my points during the past 6 months of work.

Awesome thread by the way.

 

[ChefDGreen]

I have absolute blind faith in anaerobic extraction/brew. Making it virtually impossible to allow aerobic bacteria to take space in the breaking down of the organic matter.
What I saw yesterday with my horsetail/nettle/molasses mix got me thinking that if the molecules breaking down everything are missing oxygen as soon as you open the jar and then mix with water, molecules that are in need to pair with oxygen will do so but won’t take long enough to allow the incubation of aerobic bacteria that could or could not be beneficial.
My other guess is the lack of oxygen in the brew/extract doesn’t really have any roll in the oxygen needs of the root system.

Im just throwing it out there based on what has happened in my current grow. If I can I will post a photo later on explaining some of my points during the past 6 months of work.

Awesome thread by the way.

Well I’ll just put it this way,

98% of obligate aerobic bacteria and fungi are beneficial. 50% of obligate anaerobes are human pathogens.

I don’t really want human pathogens anywhere near my crops, personally.

 

[Stunger]

I am planning for my test to try a foliar spray of aerated worm compost tea, which I've brewed before more than once. I've got some time yet because the 2 clones for the test still have a long way to go in veg.

Once moved to flower, I was going to spray one of the plants, and leave the other as a control. I was thinking just one application early in flowering before buds form, or perhaps when they have taken shape but are still very young.

Is one application enough? Should I spray mature buds, and maybe light wash off next day? Thanks.

Microbes can’t be washed off, they form glues that adhere them to the plants’ surface. You need 80-100psi to rip those microbes off of that leaf surface. A little rain isn’t going to do anything.

….. well, that’s the case for aerobic microbes in a properly made compost tea. I can’t speak for the anaerobic concoctions

In line with this really interesting thread and discussion, and as @cbdhemp808 mentioned, it also caused me to wonder about using leachate from my worm farm as a foliar spray for the purpose of a contributing towards a beneficial biofilm. The leachate is something I add to the plant's waterings and sometimes as foliar but always as a 'feed'. I had never before considered the barrier benefits of a resulting biofilm. Great thread and topic to consider and discuss.

 

[Melville Hobbes]

Well I’ll just put it this way,

98% of obligate aerobic bacteria and fungi are beneficial. 50% of obligate anaerobes are human pathogens.

I don’t really want human pathogens anywhere near my crops, personally.

Obligate anaerobes would die as soon as you sprayed them on the plant. They die in the presence of oxygen. It's the facultative anaerobes that would survive.
I'm not sure what percentage of them would be dangerous.

 

[ChefDGreen]

Obligate anaerobes would die as soon as you sprayed them on the plant. They die in the presence of oxygen. It's the facultative anaerobes that would survive.
I'm not sure what percentage of them would be dangerous.

A high percentage of facultative anaerobes are human pathogens. E. coli, salmonella, staphylococcus, listeria are just a few examples. It makes sense that a large majority of facultative anaerobes would be pathogenic because of their ability to survive cell hypoxia

 

[Melville Hobbes]

A high percentage of facultative anaerobes are human pathogens. E. coli, salmonella, staphylococcus, listeria are just a few examples. It makes sense that a large majority of facultative anaerobes would be pathogenic because of their ability to survive cell hypoxia

Of course the human gut is also a low oxygen environment, so all the microbes we rely on are anaerobes of one sort or another.
It would be interesting to find out exactly which microbes are produced in the JMS, and whether they're pathogenic or not.

 

[ChefDGreen]

As far as I understand, gene sequencing to acquire a list of species present is still in the realm of “research expensive”

 

[Danishoes21]

98% of obligate aerobic bacteria and fungi are beneficial. 50% of obligate anaerobes are human pathogens.

I don’t really want human pathogens anywhere near my crops, personally.

You have a point. And I would trust aerobic teas very much, just as much as I do anaerobic.

The only way to not grow pathogens on either aerobic or anaerobic teas is to be very clean and have a set of bio security in place.

In fact the presence of constant oxygen is the biggest liability of an aerobic tea, more chance of proliferation of pathogens (that’s just based on my opinion)

How to Brew Anaerobic Teas | North County Bounty

How to Brew Anaerobic Teas Welcome back! Today we’re leaving behind the vibrating air pumps and stashing away our air stones because this post will be all about how to steep microorganisms anaerobically! Although aerobic […]

northcountybounty.com

 

[cbdhemp808]

Obligate anaerobes would die as soon as you sprayed them on the plant. They die in the presence of oxygen. It's the facultative anaerobes that would survive.
I'm not sure what percentage of them would be dangerous.

You mean the aerobic would survive. I think @ChefDGreen is correct... almost all aerobic bacteria are beneficial (98%). (And, good to know a light washing off after application of foliar aerated worm tea (i.e. after bacteria established) wouldn't wash off the microbes.)

I've brewed aerated worm tea... the whole idea is to grow beneficial microbes. The brew is oxygenated, thus little to no anerobic bacteria survive. I usually add a couple tbs of apple juice toward the end, for the sugar.

Also, the whole idea of LAB is to culture lactobaccilus – a beneficial aerobic bacteria.

 

[Melville Hobbes]

You mean the aerobic would survive. I think @ChefDGreen is correct... almost all aerobic bacteria are beneficial (98%). (And, good to know a light washing off after application of foliar aerated worm tea (i.e. after bacteria established) wouldn't wash off the microbes.)

I've brewed aerated worm tea... the whole idea is to grow beneficial microbes. The brew is oxygenated, thus little to no anerobic bacteria survive. I usually add a couple tbs of apple juice toward the end, for the sugar.

Also, the whole idea of LAB is to culture lactobaccilus – a beneficial aerobic bacteria.

I mean the facultative anaerobes would also survive.
They're not as vulnerable to oxygen as obligate anaerobes and can survive in the oxygen concentration of open air.

 

[cbdhemp808]

I mean the facultative anaerobes would also survive.
They're not as vulnerable to oxygen as obligate anaerobes and can survive in the oxygen concentration of open air.

OK. But in a primarily aerobic population – for example on a leaf surface – wouldn't the aerobic dominate, and the anaerobes perish? (btw, is aerobes a word?)

 

[Danishoes21]

You have a point. And I would trust aerobic teas very much, just as much as I do anaerobic.

The only way to not grow pathogens on either aerobic or anaerobic teas is to be very clean and have a set of bio security in place.

In fact the presence of constant oxygen is the biggest liability of an aerobic tea, more chance of proliferation of pathogens (that’s just based on my opinion)

How to Brew Anaerobic Teas | North County Bounty

How to Brew Anaerobic Teas Welcome back! Today we’re leaving behind the vibrating air pumps and stashing away our air stones because this post will be all about how to steep microorganisms anaerobically! Although aerobic […]

northcountybounty.com

This is based on what I have been doing in my current grow; 20 gal ceramic container I have gathered a mix of garden weeds. In the bunch we have confrey, nettle, horsetail, plantain, dandelion, clover, different grasses and other weeds. Lets call this organic matter.

Hypothesis; by taking all the green manure from the area where the cannabis phenos are, I am taking a vast sample of pathogenes, fungi, microbes, yeast... ? later on defoliation I started adding organic matter form the cannabis and the tomatos.

I dump all organic matter and added rain water, I have also added worm castings and molasses to this. Left untouched for several weeks, actually it was running long time before I started using it . The organic matter ferments and decomposes forming a floating layer that creates a barrier reducing the amount of oxygen touching the surface of the body of water.
This is why I call my version of teas Anaerobic. there has to be less the 18-22% oxygen in my mix counting that there is no air pump and I added a 2-4 inch layer of organic matter that sit on top blocking even more the Oxygen molecules. I didnt put a lid on this one.

I had this tea running for at least 4 months, constantly feeding organic matter and rain water. I would use a ratio of 250 ml tea to 5 gal rain water when I watered the plants. As they grew I up to 1 lt tea per 5 gal rain water. For foliar spray 100ml to a liter rain water and neem oil each time. When I used foliar feeding with any tea I would use one spoon neem oil.

I have made every tea from green manure tea, to livestock tea, to compost and seaweed tea, all have this same model. I dont consider my teas Aerobic. I try not to disturb the content, it also helps with avoiding propagation of the heavy smell.

This is a different setup, plastic wrap and lid sealed Anaerobic horsetail/nettle/molasses

Instant reaction when the jar is opened.

Used as foliar all thru Veg cycle. And will possibly continue on flowering.

Another good read,

Compost Tea Recipe

Learn how to make organic fertilizer using a compost tea recipe.

www.wildernesscollege.com

 

[Azimuth]

Thanks, Dani. Good info!

 

[Melville Hobbes]

OK. But in a primarily aerobic population – for example on a leaf surface – wouldn't the aerobic dominate, and the anaerobes perish? (btw, is aerobes a word?)

The  obligate anaerobes would die. The difference between obligate and facultative anaerobes is the facultative ones can survive in the presence of oxygen, in other words, an aerobic environment.
And yes, it's an abbreviation of aerobic microbes.