Budlovski's First LED & Bubble Bucket Grow

[DrewDrop]

re: Budlovskis First Time - LED & Bubble Bucket Grow

Legalities can be cruel, I share your pain (for now atleast). Ive only just began buying from seed banks. 1st time wasn't good, (should have gone with one of sponsors.) But im eager to try the CBD lines.

Do you run your lights at 18/6 or 24/0 during veg?

 

[Sir Budlovski]

re: Budlovskis First Time - LED & Bubble Bucket Grow

Yeah, I went with pick n mix twice and last order was ossc cause a mate got heaps of freebies with them I got 11 free seeds along with 10 I ordered so I was happy but when I got around to getting back here I realised nothing I have were sponsors here but next time I might so I can do a good sponsor journal,
I did 24-0 with papaya but I'm not a fan of that most of the time so I've gone 18-6 with SC I usually get better results this schedule and like to give them a nap aswell as have lights off set for the hottest part of the day

 

[DrewDrop]

re: Budlovskis First Time - LED & Bubble Bucket Grow

I've always done 24 but ill try 18/6 next time. Im not real choosy where my seeds come from as long as there good seeds and those Ak 48's I got were no good. My friend got some wonderwomans from the same source and they were also duds. The 10 freebies that came with them look good tho so im sure ill get something out of it.

Happy Growing buddy

 

[Sir Budlovski]

re: Budlovskis First Time - LED & Bubble Bucket Grow

Yeah I wouldn't mind starting at 24 next time then bring it down to 20 and then again to 18 then flower at usually 12, as I get confident with Dec I may go to 24.
Yeah that sucks cause I've heard 48 is meant to be a pretty nice strain, its a real shame that all the money to get duds.
I hope your freebies do go very well, same to you mate

 

[DrewDrop]

re: Budlovskis First Time - LED & Bubble Bucket Grow

I switched mine from 24 to 18/6 two nights ago. Last night she ate more than she ever has. ppm went from 650 to 360 in 12 hrs. Thats like 3x's as much as normal so I guess she likes having the 6 hr rest better than none at all. Im going to keep a close eye on her

 

[Sir Budlovski]

re: Budlovskis First Time - LED & Bubble Bucket Grow

That's awesome mate, I hope she responds as good in all aspects
Will be interesting to know if she eats more to sustain better through the dark period or to grow more or abit of both

 

[DrewDrop]

re: Budlovskis First Time - LED & Bubble Bucket Grow

I always did 24 veg thinking it would make up for the cfl's not being as bright as hid's but this made me rethink it. Enough about my girl tho, how is your little one doing?

 

[Khraevyn]

re: Budlovskis First Time - LED & Bubble Bucket Grow

I had also had mine on a 24/7 light schedule and just recently changed it to 18/6 and I noticed a big difference in growth. The rest seems to really be beneficial to them.

Good setup you got there brother!! Hope to see some big ole dankies soon!! Good luck and keep on toking!!

~K~

 

[HunterHunt]

re: Budlovskis First Time - LED & Bubble Bucket Grow

Subbed for papaya! Good luck

 

[Sir Budlovski]

re: Budlovskis First Time - LED & Bubble Bucket Grow

Subbed for papaya! Good luck

Hey Hunter, I'm sorry to say papaya is outdoor now :/ since I screwed up with her indoor, SC has taken over the Indoor now should mention aswell few days after I put papaya outdoor either my dog or birds slightly dug her up, she looks like she may have taken that well though

 

[Sir Budlovski]

re: Budlovskis First Time - LED & Bubble Bucket Grow

I had also had mine on a 24/7 light schedule and just recently changed it to 18/6 and I noticed a big difference in growth. The rest seems to really be beneficial to them.

Good setup you got there brother!! Hope to see some big ole dankies soon!! Good luck and keep on toking!!

~K~

Thanks Khraevyn
And thanks for your shared dwc experience aswell, hope all continues smoothly your way aswell mate

 

[Sir Budlovski]

re: Budlovskis First Time - LED & Bubble Bucket Grow

I always did 24 veg thinking it would make up for the cfl's not being as bright as hid's but this made me rethink it. Enough about my girl tho, how is your little one doing?

Hey Drew, I will be updated a little bit later when lights are on and I get some small complications sorted out

 

[HunterHunt]

re: Budlovskis First Time - LED & Bubble Bucket Grow

A 20/4 or 18/6 light scheduled is needed so your plants can rest. The test have been done and the plants grow better and faster on a rest period light schedual than straight 24/0. As far as making up for having CFL's it doesnt really work that way... Plants need rest also and you will actually hurt your growth on 24/0. I only use 24/0 for when the seed sprouts for about 2 days then switch to 18/6

I use 18/6 personally and it works the best for me. I use it for cloning, veg, and 2 days after sprout.

 

[Sir Budlovski]

re: Budlovskis First Time - LED & Bubble Bucket Grow

Ok so I've got an update here.
Last night my roots were coming through the pellet so I dropped it straight into the merlot, today after discussions with khraevyn I decided to remove as much pellet as I possibly could and place seedling in just the hydroton and only filled merlot to about 1/3 or 1/4 or so.

This pic was her late lastnight at day 4

These were my tools for seperation, minus the spray bottle I used

The root structure after being removed, bit of branch of happening

This is her after being placed back in net cup with hydroton

And this is her back in the setup, I'm aware I will have to cover sides of merlot to restrict light getting into bucket

As you can see there was still abit of stubborn peat stuck but I'm hoping that with some root conditioner it shouldnt matter to much. Last 4 pics are day 5 bit before actual lights on period.
I really am hoping I havnt stressed her too much and she will recover alright, if not and it turns bad I will be doing clones from one of my outdoor plants in soil until cooler weather comes back around.
I will be quiet the happy lad if this all works out
I will also post pics either tonight or tomorrow of my 4 outdoor girls aswell as papaya who after I checked on her is still growing
Big to khraevyn who helped out with a lot of info on the pellet, thanks mate
And thankyou to everyone following along

 

[Khraevyn]

re: Budlovskis First Time - LED & Bubble Bucket Grow

Awesome update brother!! Some of that discoloration may be from the peat staining the roots. Mine were a yellow brown when I pulled it out and it was only in there for a few days. As long as you got the big stuff is the main thing. Looks good. You got that thing dow in there alright. Make sure that as it grows taller, to add more Hydroton for support. You could even throw a 2700K CFL on her and get some stretch right away. Looks really good though. Hope you see her climbing out in a few days.

~K~

 

[Sir Budlovski]

re: Budlovskis First Time - LED & Bubble Bucket Grow

Hey hunter, I was wondering if anyone had actually tested that info is very handy to know will definately be 18/6 for me from now on, in my old aero garden I had a plant vege the whole time at 16/8 and never had a problem either went bushy and dense as hell, prob not supreme but that one ended up liking the huge dark period haha,

And thanks Khraevyn, I was hoping the same, I had a toothpick and VERY carefully tried to see if I could dislodge some darkness, was hardly there so I'd say it was discoloration and maybe a little bit of fine specks of peat there nothing major.
I think I may have a lower watt 2700k lying around so ill put that in at some stage soon.
If I may ask, how high on the stem should I put the hydroton while I'm getting it to grow to the top of net cup? Like should I keep the hydroton up to the bottom of the leaves or abit below?
Once again cheers for the input

 

[Sir Budlovski]

re: Budlovskis First Time - LED & Bubble Bucket Grow

Here's something I read today that might spark some interest in people stopping by, and I'm curious if anyone has tested this indoor or outdoor.

Place a few slices of cucumber in a small pie tin and your garden will be free of pests all season long.
The chemicals in the cucumber react with the aluminum to give off a scent undetectable to humans but drive garden pests crazy and make them flee the area.

I have a whole article on cucumber in my blog if anyone is interested in having a read

 

[DrewDrop]

re: Budlovskis First Time - LED & Bubble Bucket Grow

A 20/4 or 18/6 light scheduled is needed so your plants can rest. The test have been done and the plants grow better and faster on a rest period light schedual than straight 24/0. As far as making up for having CFL's it doesnt really work that way... Plants need rest also and you will actually hurt your growth on 24/0. I only use 24/0 for when the seed sprouts for about 2 days then switch to 18/6

I use 18/6 personally and it works the best for me. I use it for cloning, veg, and 2 days after sprout.

Do you have a link to that test?

 

[HunterHunt]

re: Budlovskis First Time - LED & Bubble Bucket Grow

What is the point in taking the seedling out the plug? There is no need for this. You only slow your seedling down.

 

[HunterHunt]

re: Budlovskis First Time - LED & Bubble Bucket Grow

Do you have a link to that test?

Here is a good read on the light schedules. I will see if i can dig up the actual scientific data and pictures of the different light cycles. I have actually watched a photo period video of the two side by side with the 18/6 having faster and more growth. Try it out!

Heres the article i found for now which is a good read:

They've never been able to consistently prove anything but a decrease in yield when using 24/0, for a plethora of plants, including cannabis.

At the most, and very rarely, it levels out to roughly the same yield as 18/6 for the same time period, in which case all those extra hours on the electricity bill, and the extra hours on the life of the bulbs being used, they go to waste and the crop is more expensive, for no additional gain.

In just one month, that's an extra 180 hours of bulb-life and electricity cost, that goes down the drain, all for nothing!


20/4 is a good happy medium for most cannabis plants, but if your ladies are stressed for what appears to be 'no good reason' (and some strains are more finicky and more sensitive when it comes to over-exposure to light, than others) then it may be a good idea to cut back a few hours.


Another reason 24/0 became popular is due to new, and inexperienced growers, who learn along the way and improve their yield almost with each harvest. A new grower in my eyes, has anything under 20 successful harvest under his or her belt.. some people grow for a decade, and they're still modifying and improving their technique!
Many new growers, who are still learning how to treat their plants properly, sometimes improve their own gardening skills while at the same time trying 24/0 lighting for the first time. Sometimes, their yields increase.

But instead of giving credit, where credit is due (in other words, to their savvy and improved growing skills), they instead chalk up this success to the extended light cycle.



The potential for improvement when using 24/0 is a phenomena generally restricted to new growers, due not at all to the light schedule, but to their skills improving; most of us old timers, who've already had the environment, feed and care dialed in for several decades, see either a leveling off or a decrease in yield when toying with 24/0.



Some past posts on 24/0 lighting, if you're interested in the details....



"They've proven time, and time again, that virtually all plants existing naturally under normal daylight-darkness conditions, require a regular, dark rest phase... cannabis is not all that unique in its requirements, compared to other light-sensitive plants that require a specific photo-period to function at their prime. Posted Image


After years of trial an error, on both cannabis, and a plethora of other flowering and fruit/veg-bearing plants, they've consistently determined that you yield the same or less when running 24/0.

Yielding the same doesn't sound like such a big loss on the surface, but think about it this way: during a month long veg cycle for instance, that's an extra 180 hours of bulb-life you're wasting, and electricity cost you're sacrificing, for no gain (and sometimes, at a loss!).




If you really want to try to stretch the light exposure out, a healthier option is to go for 20/4 during veg, and 13/11 in bloom for the first three or four weeks.



Plants respire and have pores which function, open and close, depending on the light cycle.. if you keep them awake all the time, they become stressed and start losing vigor, and eventually (late-stage) they develop chlorosis.



The ONLY REASON people assume incorrectly that it's somehow safe or healthy for cannabis, is because the life-cycle we run them through is relatively short, enough so that by the time we flip to 12/12 the damage has been done, but may not be visible to the naked eye.


Just because you visibly don't see obvious signs of distress, it does not mean your plants aren't suffering and lacking in vigor and growth-speed. Posted Image

They're tough, hardy plants. They can take some abuse! Just because they are still alive, and they appear healthy enough, it does not mean that they are making more progress, and it does not indicate whether or not their development has been crippled.
Prolonged 24/0, besides causing your yield to suffer, can cause a high male count, hermies in otherwise-female plants, chlorosis and reduced photosynthesis, and even death.


Rarely, some strains are much more delicate that others, and may show noticeable, visible damage within the first two weeks of 24/0, while most others can take up to two months or longer before appearing obviously, visibly distressed.
It's why many autos, grown from veg through bloom under 24/0, tend to look a bit more stressed out than naturally grown plants by the end, and it's why they were once known for being low yielders.


After visiting many gardens, and seeing many plants over the years suffering from 'mystery ailments', when everything else is in order and as it should be, one of my first questions is.. "what light cycle are you running?" Posted Image "



---

The below is from a past thread, regarding a plant that was suffering pretty badly... it's a bit wordy, but it's mostly excerpts from past studies on 24/0, versus a more healthy, natural light cycle.


---

"Looks like chlorosis.. plants are not meant to endure a 24/0 light cycle, why people still do this, when it's only ever been proven to lower the yield, I'll never understand!


I've never seen an increase in yield, or quality with a 24 hour light cycle.. just an increase in the electric bill. Posted Image And here's the science behind why...


Plants, like you or I, need a rest cycle. There are vascular and 'respiratory'/transpiration changes that occur between night and day... If you really want to milk the most growth from your ladies during veg, try a 20/4 cycle. This is where you are most likely to see an increase in vegetative growth and yield, versus 18/6, or 24/0.


Plants have hormonal triggers that are activated during lights-out, without a period of rest they begin to get run down, ragged, and they often develop chlorisis. This can be seen in many auto-flowering plants, when given 24 hours of light.. it's taken years of selective breeding to only reduce this.


In non-autos, our vegging periods/durations are often so short, that chlorosis is not yet fully under way by the time we finally do give them a nightly resting period. But the damage has already been done.. this is why the yield is often the same, or less, when 24 hour light schedules are used.

If you yield the same with 24/0 as you did with 18/6, then it was still at the cost of running your lights an additional 160+ hours, during the average 3 - 4 week veg period. Those are wasted bulb-hours you're not going to get back, on top of your electric bill. This means your plants only used the additional energy to compensate for the damage, when otherwise, they may have actually yielded better under more-natural conditions.


The extra hours may compensate for the stress and lack of vigor as far as growth is concerned, if all other aspects of the environment are fairly well under control, but very often the new grower using a 24/0 light cycle winds up with some visibly-stressed out little ladies by the time 12/12 comes along.


If you're only on your 8th or 10th indoor crop, and you are a relatively new grower, then chances are if you do see an improvement, you shouldn't be so fast to give your light the credit: it can probably be chalked up to learning experiences. Many people are still improving, and tweaking their indoor techniques, 10 years down the road!


" One of the biggest contrasts between day and night for plants involves the concentrations of hormones called phytochromes. These are light-sensitive hormones found in all leaves that essentially wake up the plant's genetic mechanisms to face the new day when the lights come on. They also control the genetic switches that direct growth by plants, and determine all growth responses such as when plants grow vegetatively or whether they bloom. Phytochromes are the time-keeper hormones in plants, just as melatonin secreted from the pineal gland regulates the sense of time in animals. Although plants have not evolved endocrine glands and neurons, they do sense time in a remarkably similar way using their phytochromes. We can see by this similarity that at least on some level plants share with animals the ability to tell night from day and to measure time in a meaningful way–certainly both basic functions we recognize in "conscious" organisms. " - Maximum Yield - Indoor Gardening


Light doesn't just control the flowering cycle, but especially for those it does, it's important they're given a short dark resting period, even in veg.

Every plant has a different 'preferred' photo-period, some need less and some need more during veg, but nearly -all- species of plants prefer at least some amount of sleep, in order to achieve the most vegetative-growth/yield, with the least amount of stress.




" OPTIMAL PHOTOPERIODS

For tomato, best growth and yield were obtained under a photoperiod of 14 hours (Vézina et al., 1991; Demers et al., 1998b). Photoperiods longer than 14 h did not further increase yield. Photoperiods of 20 and 24 h can even decrease yield and caused leaf chlorosis after 6 to 8 weeks (Vézina et al., 1991; Demers et al., 1998b). Although long term use of a 17-h photoperiod does not increase growth and yield compared to 14 h, it might be interesting to extend the photoperiod to 17 h in order to increase total light provided to plants especially during the months with the lowest natural light levels (December-January). However, if a 17-h photoperiod is used, it is important that the dark period be uninterrupted, since splitting the dark period of 7 h in two short nights of 3.5 h (separated by a light period of 4 h) caused leaf chlorosis and decreased growth and yield (Vézina et al., 1991).
For sweet pepper, a 20 h-photoperiod was optimal for plant growth and productivity (Demers et al., 1998a). Yield under continuous light (24-h photoperiod) was equivalent to yield under photoperiods of 15 or 16 h (Costes et al., 1970; Demers et al., 1998a). (However) extension of the photoperiod from 15 or 16 h to 24 h decreased the average size of pepper fruits (Costes et al., 1970; Demers et al., 1998a).
Continuous light caused some leaf deformities (wrinkles) but no chlorosis in sweet pepper grown in greenhouses. Although long term use of continuous light is detrimental to tomato and pepper plants, tomato and sweet pepper plants can take advantage of the extra light energy provided by continuous lighting for a short period of time. Early vegetative growth and fruit production of tomato and pepper plants were generally improved under continuous light compared the 14-h photoperiod (Demers et al., 1998a, 1998b). However, after that initial period, plants under continuous light grew more slowly than plants exposed to 14-h photoperiod; so that tomato and pepper plant growth and yield under 14-h photoperiod were then equal to or higher than under continuous light at the end of the experiment.


Costes et al. (1970) also observed that continuous light improved the early performance (hastening of flowering and fruit set, increased early yield) of sweet pepper plants compared to a 15-h photoperiod. Therefore, it might be possible to use continuous light for a short period of time (5 to 7 weeks) to improve growth of tomato and sweet pepper, especially during the months with the lowest natural light levels (December and January). However, such a practice should be investigated in order to determine if short term use of continuous light might have residual negative effects on tomato and sweet pepper plants.
NEGATIVE EFFECTS OF LONG PHOTOPERIODS AND THE FACTORS INVOLVED IN THEIR DEVELOPMENT
Tomato and sweet pepper plants do not take advantage (no increase in yield) when grown under photoperiods longer than 14 h (tomato) or 20 h (pepper). Tomato plants, but not sweet pepper, develop leaf chlorosis under continuous light. In the next sections, we will examine the role of the carbon metabolism, pigments, light spectral quality and day/night temperature differential in the development of these negative effects of long photoperiods.
Carbon Metabolism
High starch and soluble sugar accumulations were observed in leaves of tomato plants grown under long photoperiods, and it was suggested that these accumulations could be related to the development of the leaf chlorosis (Bradley et al., 1985; Logendra et al., 1990; Dorais, 1992).
Studies on other species support the hypothesis of a relationship between leaf chlorosis development and starch and sugar accumulations. For example, continuous light caused increased leaf starch and hexose accumulations and leaf chlorosis of eggplants (Solanum melongena L.) (Murage et al., 1996). However, eggplants growing under continuous light but in a CO2-free atmosphere for 12 h per day accumulated less starch and hexoses, and did not develop leaf chlorosis.
Exposure of tomato and sweet pepper plants to continuous light resulted in increased foliar contents in starch in tomato and sweet pepper, in hexoses (glucose and fructose) in tomato and sucrose in sweet pepper (Dorais et al., 1996; Demers et al., 1998a, 1998b). However, the reduction of the number of fruits on the plants did not modify the pattern of accumulation of starch and sugars in leaves of tomato and sweet pepper plants exposed to photoperiods of 14 and 24 h (Demers et al., 1998a, 1998b). Moreover, the reduction of the number of fruits on the plants did not influence the severity nor the date of appearance of the foliar chlorosis in tomato plants grown under continuous light. This indicates that accumulations of starch and soluble sugars are not caused by a limiting sink capacity. If there is a relationship between the excessive starch and soluble sugar accumulations and the development of the negative effects (leaf chlorosis, decreased growth and productivity) of the long photoperiods on tomato and sweet pepper, it is most likely a limitation of the carbon metabolism at the leaf level which is responsible for these accumulations.
In tomato, the use of continuous light caused, in addition to the foliar chlorosis and increased foliar contents in starch and hexoses, a reduction of the photosynthesis rate and of the activity of the sucrose phosphate synthase (SPS) enzyme (Demers, 1998). These reductions in photosynthesis and of SPS activity occurred between 6th and 8th week
under continuous light, i.e. about at the same time as the foliar chlorosis appeared, while starch and hexoses contents in leaves increased during the first 4 weeks of the experiment.
Since the reduction of the SPS activity occurred after the increase in starch and hexoses, it is thus impossible that the reduction of the SPS activity is responsible for these accumulations. However, it is possible that the SPS activity in vivo is limiting, which would explain the hexose increase. This suggests the limiting step of the export of photosynthates is the synthesis of sucrose in tomato and would explain the absence of growth and the productivity increase under continuous light. Furthermore, the increased hexose levels in the cytoplasm, by a feedback effect, would limit the export of the triosephosphate (photosynthesis products) out of the chloroplast, which would then be redirected towards starch synthesis, thus explaining the increased starch contents.
Moreover, the increased accumulation of starch would generate, by a feedback effect, an overload of the Calvin cycle, which would gradually cause the observed decrease of the CO2 fixation rate. Are the starch accumulations responsible for the leaf chlorosis in tomato? It is possible that the overload imposed on the Calvin cycle (decreased photosynthesis) could limit the use of the reducing potential (ATP, NADPH) produced by the luminous phase of photosynthesis, thus causing an overload on the electron transport chain and the photo-oxidation of the chlorophylls (decrease in the leaf chlorophyll contents), and thus explaining the observed leaf foliar chlorosis. Transgenic tomato plants (in which a gene coding for the SPS enzyme was incorporated and overexpress this enzyme) could be used in future studies to test if accumulations of starch in leaves are responsible for the development of chlorosis observed in tomato plants exposed to continuous light. Transgenic tomato plants (overexpressing SPS) have higher photosynthesis rates and accumulate less starch and more sucrose than non-transformed
plants, especially under conditions of saturating light and CO2 (Galtier et al., 1993, 1995; Micallef et al., 1995). One can put forth the assumption that, under continuous light, leaf starch contents would be lower in transgenic plants than in normal plants. If this is the case, the reduction of the leaf starch content in transgenic plants should thus prevent the development of the leaf chlorosis, or at least decrease its severity.
In sweet pepper, the use of continuous light caused an increase in the leaf starch and sucrose contents, but did not affect leaf hexose contents, photosynthesis rates and SPS activity (Demers, 1998). The increased foliar contents in sucrose indicate that SPS activity in sweet pepper is not limiting as in tomato. Increased accumulation of starch in
sweet pepper plants exposed to continuous light would be explained by the fact that continuous light results in a longer period of time over which starch synthesis occur, but without overloading the starch synthesis pathway. Thus, starch accumulation in sweet pepper under continuous light would not be important enough to cause a reduction in CO2 fixation (no overload of the Calvin cycle). Increased leaf contents in sucrose suggest that sucrose export would be possibly limiting. In sweet pepper plants, the export rate of carbon (as sucrose) out of the leaf is constant, and the export rate would be limited at the level of the loading of sucrose in the phloem (Grange, 1985, 1987). This would explain why the growth and the productivity of the sweet pepper plants do not increase under continuous light.
Pigments
In growth chambers, continuous light caused leaf chlorosis, decreased photosynthesis rates, and reductions in leaf contents in pigments (chlorophyll a and b,
carotene, xanthophylls) in both tomato and sweet pepper plants (Demers, 1998). Leaf chlorosis, decreased photosynthesis rates and loss of pigments were more important and occurred earlier in tomato plants than in sweet pepper. Compared to sweet pepper plants, EPS ratio (epoxidation state of the pigments of the xanthophyll cycle) was lower in tomato, indicating a greater need for energy dissipation and a more important state of stress (caused by excessive light). Pigments such as carotene and xanthophylls (violaxanthin, antheraxanthin, zeaxanthin) play a significant role in the protection of the photosynthetic apparatus against damage that could be caused by an excess of light.
Carotene and xanthophyll levels were higher in sweet pepper plants than in tomato. Thus, sweet pepper has a better protection against the degradation of chlorophylls, which would explain why leaf chlorosis appeared later and were less severe in sweet pepper." What are the Consequences of Leaving Lights on 24/7 - Growing under Lights Forum - GardenWeb

----


Think of it this way... we don't even fully understand why we need sleep, or precisely what happens during those hours. We have a pretty good idea, and we definitely feel the consequences personally more than we can comprehend when it comes to plants. As much science/potential as we have, we still only have a vague understanding that some people can cope with less sleep, better than others, and almost no one can cope well with no sleep at all, for extended periods of time. Plants included Posted Image


Long story short, you should see some improvement once you reduce your light schedule, and allow her some 'rest time'.