Phased Indoor Moon?

[Tom Bombodil]

I posted this on another site years ago. Finding it today inspired me to join my favorite site, 420mag, where i have been lurking for quite some time now.

Posting this here in the hydro section because I am not asking about coordinating grow actives with the real actual moon... The idea that has been pestering me is: can we simulate the moon artificially, or to what extent is the light/photoperiod of the moon affecting plant cycles and could such rhythms be manipulated? Below is the proposition in its full text:

ok folks, I've been having this CRAZY idea and I have to share it with someone. I've chosen you all as my victims. read on

1) There's been mention here of moon phases and their effect on the natural world. To ramble just a bit: Years back I was in Dominica and had a chat with a local on the Carib reservation about her thatch roofed house. She said that if the fronds were cut during a new moon, the 'juices' would be trapped inside; this way the roof can last for up to two years. But, if they were harvested during the full moon, then they would quickly dry out, get eaten by bugs, and last only a season or less.

2) To further ramble, a friend of mine has a saltwater aquarium in her baby's room with live coral. There's a special lighting assembly that provides warm yellow light during the day, complete darkness for part of the night, and a special pale blue "moonlight" that coral is supposed to need/do better with.

3) To the point that was made earlier, ganja grown outdoors will obviously encounter varying degrees of moonlight, and do just fine. They also take longer.

4) We are all undeniably aware that we trick, force, or otherwise manipulate some pre-existing genetic programming of the plant by way of controlling the photoperiod, or day cycle.

5) There are many ways to measure time. For instance, many non-Julian calendars (Mayan, Tibetan, Hebrew, Islamic i think) measure the LUNAR cycle, not the solar. Rather than months and years marking the revolution of the earth around the sun (marked with little black moon phases so show where the calendars coincide), I suppose one of these calendars would show dates as they mark the revolution of the moon around the earth (with little black suns to show solar events, such as completing a revolution of the sun or an eclipse event). A true "moonth" is 28 days. Women (and the men in their lives) are familiar with this type of schedule.

6) Given 1 through 5, here's the crazy idea: one of these gentle "moonlights", set to a cycle completely independent of the "daylights", in the flower room. Just like in the natural world, it would gradually phase from full (bright) to half (dim) to new (off) and back up again in a sine wave manner over a period of days. Some nights the moon would be new (off), and sometimes it would be dark at "night" becuase the moon had risen and set during the "day", while the sun was up and you couldn't really see it very well. The PERIOD is the important part. If 12/12 lighting is the natural catalyst to BEGIN flowering, what if we could use the moonphase lighting to tell the plants to HURRY THE FUCK UP? Instead of an outdoor 9 month growing season (9 lunar cycles), what if we set the timer to collapse this by a factor of 3, and make it accomplish 9 lunar cycles in 3 calendar months, or less? And, what if you could set the timer to coincide the "full" moon with planting activities, and a "new" moon for harvesting activites (see item #1).

One day I may try this, but if it leads to a bunch of hermies and I'm hurtin, you guys gotta support a brother till next harvest!

 

[Tom Bombodil]

Also wanted to share this great article, awesome information and plots of the spectral qualities of moonlight: Aquarium Lighting: Moonlight - A Concise Review of Its Spectrum, Intensity, Photoperiod, and Relationship to Coral and Fish Spawning — Advanced Aquarist | Aquarist Magazine and Blog

 

[up side down]

It's the gravitation pull not the moonlight itself

 

[Tom Bombodil]

Agreed upside down, I'd bet that the main effect of the moon is gravity not the light.

But is it possible that the moons photoperiod could also play a role? Like a cue, triggering some hormone in the plants lifecycle?

Could be a great opportunity for a true experiment... Since we can't manipulate gravity, the gravitational component would be removed, isolating the photoperiod effect. (come to think of it, in order to control for the gravity effect I'd have to repeat the experiment several times through different real world lunar periods, since there would be natural gravitational effects occurring during the cycle).

I've just got my room up and running so i guess the burden of proof is on me to try this idea. If i do, i will certainly post the results here!


Also realized that i never mentioned the inspiration for the idea of artificial lunar cycling for mj growing: coral hobbyists not only use similar daylighting equipment and techniques to grow coral, they also use lunar light simulators and cycles for the night lighting... I don't know much about coral, but from my limited understanding there is some growth mechanism or cycle in coral that can only be initiated through moonlight and lunar cycles.

 

[Tom Bombodil]

Bumpity bummpity bUMP! ! !

What about wer-cannabis? Anybody know anything about turning into a plant, by the light of the full moon?

 

[Alkhemist]

heya TOM B!! (one of my fav characters btw )

thats a GREAT question! ive thought about that idea a bit myself.. and not only that.. but following into other areas.. e.g. with a light mover that followed certain directions- from east to west- similar to the movement of the sun.. i have 2 friends, rastafarians but that grow using steiner bio-dynamic principles... they do a few things.. plant in the east.. plant(or take cuttings) on a new moon, feed and harvest etc depending on the moon, harvesting at a fullmoon OR darkmoon... and so on. they would fill cow horns, with bull fecal matter to 'marry' the feminine and masculine 'principles'... plant these in a circle 6 months or so before planting(on a new moon!)... time would go on and the horns would begin to disintegrate and release the qualities of the fert into the soil... all coinciding with the phases of the moon. this is not new though, this is something that most, if not all tribal cultures have adhered to for eons and i think you are on to something with it for indoor growing potential! i think it would be a brilliant experiment and would be willing to try a grow with it- if you are willing to do the math- so to speak loL!

and the moon obviously effects the gravity of the earth! the tides of the oceans! but its light is another OBVIOUS, irrefutable factor that effects growth of flora and fauna also!! this should go without saying ;]

its ideas and thoughts like these that lead to great innovations in growing, growing techs and growing applications and i commend you Tom on raising the topic here

 

[Bassman59]

The moon is for howling. If phasing just a bit of moonlight into one's grow, howling is required to trigger hormonal response from the female cannabis plant. This hormonal response triggers the female to want to mate with much more enthusiasm. She'll have swelling of her sexual reproduction parts as a result of being tickled by the moon and howling and the hormonal response of sending more nutrients to the mating genitalia of the cannabis flower (calyx).

Don't forget to howl! Your girls will respond accordingly!

 

[Alkhemist]

:HOWLS: loL

 

[Tom Bombodil]

Lol @ howling bassman59! Beginning my howl regimen tonight!

Thanks for the props Alkhemist, and the info. I've seen friends experimenting with the steiner method, the cow horn in particular... Sounds wacky as hell, but they swear by it. And like you mentioned, ancient cultures werent into wasting precious energy and resources on methods with no value, so that means something to me right there. I'm convinced that, pound for pound, ancient peoples were way more intelligent than the average modern human. I mean, the Babylonians were using batteries for gold plating and the Greeks building astronomical computers thousands of years ago... In those cases, it means that those thinkers not only UNDERSTOOD the natural forces they were dealing with, but had to be INGENIOUS enough to engineer the devices with the materials they had. Contrast this to us modem humans, who have a wealth of theoretical information at our fingertips but are relatively poor in our ability to o implement solutions.

 

[Alkhemist]

absolutely Tom B! i could'nt agree with you more! ppl have become exceedingly arrogant thinking that we presently surpass the technologies and applications of our ancient past.. or that 'they know best' and mock any other advancement or direction that goes against their own 'proven' methods. this is, i believe, part of the 'we fear what we do not understand' thing and will fight to protect that fear, they cling to it. its not about the 'dont fix what isnt broken' thing at all, its not about trying to re-invent the wheel, its about ideas like yours(PURSUING and APPLYING those ideas) and open minded people like you, its about innovation..
the only thing we surpass our ancient cultural heritage with is our ability to be absolutely moronic in our faith and adherence to the precepts of consumerism and capitalism as our new religious institution. and how much we have 'unlearned' as a result of our pursuit for 'learning', we as a species have become blinkered and have lost our connection to this wonderful planet amid the quagmire of paltry tinsel and glitter and superiority/inferiority complexes that incessantly distracts us.
im a big fan of experimenting with growing.. but also love the idea of experimenting with ideas to mimic natural environments.. which also include 'energic' developments, that seem to abound in oriental institutes of learning(as opposed to the occidental which frowns upon such 'pseudo science' or remains 'fringe' science)- including astrological considerations(humanities way of anthropomorphising actual energy and astronomical events/movements)movement of the sun(or our earths movement around the sun), flows of energy meridians/ley lines/dragon lines within the earth and also above the earth(feng shui and chi movements within a space), phases, magnetism and light of the moon, seasonal and directional influences, energic elements within the ambient air, sound waves and their impact upon the energic 'body' of biological forms, STRUCTURE of water and cymatic frequency activation of water(esp. within hydroponics but not limited to) and even understanding things like the marriage of the 'masculine and feminine principles'(seemingly philosophical but rooted in application- alchemy is a good example of this very thing, which has contributed to scientific method and discovery for hundreds of years, the ole cow horn and bull matter thing) etc. plants have been growing outdoors with starlight and moonlight- it's waxing and waning, pulling and releasing, for eons.. if it works outdoors and has done so for countless generations then it will work for indoor growing too- its just finding the right formulation of elements conducive to creating an accurate surrogate model. construct the prototype and implement it.

im glad you started this thread but find it a pity that more ppl arent interested or take it more seriously as it is a valid topic in this area.. imho it reflects a person who is willing to contribute to horticultural innovations.. furthermore a person who is willing to reconnect with ancient traditions(knowledge and understanding of) and marry them with modern scientific knowledge and applications! i think this is refreshing to be absolutely honest and ive been working within horticulture for 20+ years now.. mainly pipfruit, stonefruit and specialize in various other aspects e.g. viticultural and horticultural pruning methods i.e. 'access' and 'renewal' pruning methods. im a qualified horticultural workplace assessor and work with a small handful of horticultural consultants, one if which is my ex g/f's uncle!(not tricky at all! ;]) lol who has created several apple varieties including "pacific rose".
and one thing i can assure you of, is that all the people i know of in this field WOULD NOT mock this topic at all but have conversed about such topics for some time.. the only problem being, is the push to produce for profits and for companies and their contracts.. it is difficult to pursue these ideas within the scientific hort environment for this reason alone. the bonds of corporate/governmental financial investment and funding i.e. 'vested' interests.

regards

 

[Tom Bombodil]

Whoa alkhemist you are blowing my mind! ! We could definitely sit down with some cold brews and talk about this for hours, you and I. So refreshing to run into another like minded thinker. Some of what you mentioned I've never heard of before, I'll admit, but now I've got new fodder to fuel my internet learning and wild imaginations. It reminds me of the principles of permaculture... Bill Mollison the father of modern permaculture, I'm sure you know his name he's another Ozzy horticulturalist. I bought his book Permaculture Design more than a decade ago and I'm still learning from it. He speaks at length on this topic. I recall in particular one diagram he had of ancient Polynesian mariners and the techniques they used for navigation, etc. A guy in a black box sensory deprivation chamber in the hull, counting and timing the amplitude and wavelength of the wave sets (as somewhat of a professional mathemetician, i can add that the information being computed from such raw data allows inferences about the fractal dimension of the patterns... Ancient men were familiar with the effects of CHAOS MATH). And my favorite: a specially trained guy hanging off an outrigger with his BALLSACK hanging in the water, he can detect variations in temperature so fine that the crew can tell the shifting ocean currents. And other crew members who taste seawater, and can detect minute changes in salinity and again make inferences about ocean currents and also proximity to land (ex: approaching a river delta results in lesser salinity, even before land is sighted).

Great discussion, thanks for speaking up Alkhemist!

 

[Lurch Farmer]

Hope ya'll don't mind an eaves dropper,,
I have been pondering the light of the moon part of this conversation
my wife is more about the gravity side
I have an idea for a " Light of the Moon" experiment. if any one wants to hear it and offer assistance ?
Please let me know if I should start my own thread for this ?

 

[Tom Bombodil]

LurchFarmer, yes i definitely want to hear your idea, please share... Exactly the kind of thing i hoped to discuss here.

If i could guess I'd say gravity likely has more to do with the natural ebb and flow (pun intended! ) of the plant, and if i could get my hands on a gravity manipulator I'd be doing that experiment in a heart beat! (i got a line on one on craigslist, just needs a new flux capacitor ).

But like we're discussing, there very well might be a rhythm in the plant lifecycle that is actuated, or attenuated, by the lunar light photoperiod. Apparently it does something for coral enthusiasts.

Can't wait to hear your take on it...

 

[Lurch Farmer]

I will have you know ,I just happen to have 3 brand new in the box never touched by human hands, Flux capacitors.
Any way, this is the experiment:
the moon runs at 28-29 day schedule.new/new
increasing in brightness for 12-13 nights 2-3 nights at its brightest then decreasing for the next 12-13 nights
The trick is timing the lights and the plants growth.

The first 2-3 day ( brightest moon) should try to coincide with the slowing down of growth, in this case veg.

The second just after first sign of buds and first flower time defoliation
lights should be the same for all stages. In my case mh,veg/hps,flower
from seed 6-8 week veg

allow 14 days for germ, seedling stage, run lights 24/0

at lights on day 15 change light time 18/6.

at lights on day 28 change light times ,GLR, 12/5/1/6 And add a dimmable low watt light in a reflector so the light does not actually "contact" the plant , only reflected light on during lights out
At lights on day 42 set time for 24 hour dark
depending on strain another 6-8 weeks
please take in to consideration I am in the middle of sampling the autos I harvested

 

[Tom Bombodil]

Sampling whilst thinking results in the whackiest, but most original ideas. I bet Tesla was getting high when he came up with AC (and that's another point, if a guy in the late 1800's can envision a new way to harness electricity why havent we come up with something even,better by now? I bet prohibition of mj has something to do with it).

So just to be sure I'm interpreting your idea correctly, the lights that go from 24/0 - 18/6 - 12/12 are your regular grow lights ("sun lights")? And the low light reflected weakly ("moon lights") are timed so that they reach the weak stage at the end of veg to coincide with the onset of flower? In other words, are you thinking of squeezing and stretching the normal 28 day cycle to match these milestones?

 

[Lurch Farmer]

The other way around I would attempt to match my veg time to the light cycle germ 2-3 days before the new moon
Think of it more like a 5 moon grow?
yes I know minimum time would be 140 days.
Already got the first 1 started (75 days ago) 4 weeks 24/0, the idea was an after thought and the next 45 days diminished till 12/12, then a 24 hour dark period (proly over kill but we will see)
I just germed 13 bagseeds on the 13th, hoping for 8 strong ladies.
I am going to try to stick to this schedule.
May the ganja gods shine on this endeavor.

 

[Tom Bombodil]

I second that, I'm sure that gods of both ganja AND science are with you on this one!

 

[B A R]

Broke Ass was here via Relaxed Lester