Advanced LED vs TopLED Side By Side Comparison - Hawaiian Snow & Blueberry

[CCOiler]

re: Advanced LED vs TopLED Side By Side Comparison - Hawaiian Snow & Blueberry

Yet another great journal here in 420 land, great job Crawdaddy. Subscribed.

 

[ronnie6690]

re: Advanced LED vs TopLED Side By Side Comparison - Hawaiian Snow & Blueberry

my mistake its Advanced led that advertises using cree diodes not Lush lighting. Lush does advertises the use of two lens to double lux intensity.

 

[Crawdaddy]

re: Advanced LED vs TopLED Side By Side Comparison - Hawaiian Snow & Blueberry

I have nothing against where a panel is made. The Chinese product might not be of the highest quality components, but they are by far the cheapest. Shit the first manufactured panel I ever purchased was a TopLED reflector a few weeks ago. I personally look at it from an economics standpoint. If I can get close to the same product for 1/3rd the price, even if it only last half as long, I still got the best bang for my buck. I would love to see a company come out with a Cree/Luxeon/Osram LED panel using the best of what each company has to offer, but that simply isn't going to happen. There are too many technical details that require way more engineering than using all the same brand offers. Cree doesn't make the deep or far reds, Phillips/Luxeon doesn't make the low blues, Osram doesn't make the blues, but for each one they have slightly better things they do than the other companies.

I agree that the TopLED side does seem to be growing a little better but it's really hard to tell from pictures until it gets way more growth.

I agree about the What you said about Chinese panels and price. My point was that charging the price point Lush does and being made in China makes me wonder if I being gouged. And throws up red flags for me.

 

[Crawdaddy]

re: Advanced LED vs TopLED Side By Side Comparison - Hawaiian Snow & Blueberry

my mistake its Advanced led that advertises using cree diodes not Lush lighting. Lush does advertises the use of two lens to double lux intensity.

From KJC's thread post #277

Shrike,
You guys are correct. Lush Lighting headquarters is in Michigan. We R&D and engineer our product here. We also warranty and service our product here. But, our assembly plant is in China with components from there and Taiwan. We've worked with several factories since 2010. But, we only taught one the correct way to assemble LED grow lights. Current economic conditions make this necessary.

Back in 2011-2013 some of the diodes we need in grow lights we not ready for market yet. Since we could not properly build a grow light then, we waited till we could to release Lush. We were experiencing color shifting, light degradation and chemical burning from UV photons. We worked with Cree, sending samples back along with analysis of the problems. They were the first to pull the diodes off the shelf and the first to fix the problem so we could move on. These diodes are not in any other industry. These are not in any commercial, residential or industrial buildings. No cell phones, TV's, street lights, not even theater lighting uses these diodes. We are the only ones, and the more grow lights we sell, the more the price will come down.

While not directly saying using Cree, at very least implying it.

I opened my DS100 and got to circuit board, nothing labeled 'Cree' anywhere we could find. Saw some Chinese on some of power supplies.

 

[CareStaker]

re: Advanced LED vs TopLED Side By Side Comparison - Hawaiian Snow & Blueberry

From KJC's thread post #277



While not directly saying using Cree, at very least implying it.

I opened my DS100 and got to circuit board, nothing labeled 'Cree' anywhere we could find. Saw some Chinese on some of power supplies.

DS-100 runs Bridgelux and maybe Epistar I think, no Cree. This might be wrong, but I think the drivers are Meanwell, or similar -- they are easily replaceable/inexpensive....you can find replacements on the 'bay.

XML-lights (150, 350) from Advanced uses the latest top bin Cree XML chips, which are the latest and greatest, imo. I am really wanting one of those, but they are expensive. I think Lush is targeting commercial growers, as their color choices will grow big plants, and likely yields, but I am guessing that the trichome density and potency will not be on par, with other panels, like Advanced and others. I can't wait to see how the TopLed does against the DS, in flower. If it competes closely in trich production, it's a huge bargain.

 

[SmokerJoe]

re: Advanced LED vs TopLED Side By Side Comparison - Hawaiian Snow & Blueberry

How does the same wattage but different companies led panels affect trich production? Assuming they are all 3Watt diodes and 5 watt diodes

 

[VonDankenhoek]

re: Advanced LED vs TopLED Side By Side Comparison - Hawaiian Snow & Blueberry

lively discussion that raises good points. very interesting thanks .

i have an inexpensive chinese lamp that seems to grow choice tomatoes. im 1/2 way through a cycle. i hope to post some pics in support of <$1/watt led lights next month.

 

[Crawdaddy]

re: Advanced LED vs TopLED Side By Side Comparison - Hawaiian Snow & Blueberry

DS-100 runs Bridgelux and maybe Epistar I think, no Cree. This might be wrong, but I think the drivers are Meanwell, or similar -- they are easily replaceable/inexpensive....you can find replacements on the 'bay.

XML-lights (150, 350) from Advanced uses the latest top bin Cree XML chips, which are the latest and greatest, imo. I am really wanting one of those, but they are expensive. I think Lush is targeting commercial growers, as their color choices will grow big plants, and likely yields, but I am guessing that the trichome density and potency will not be on par, with other panels, like Advanced and others. I can't wait to see how the TopLed does against the DS, in flower. If it competes closely in trich production, it's a huge bargain.

How does the same wattage but different companies led panels affect trich production? Assuming they are all 3Watt diodes and 5 watt diodes

I think what Carestalker is trying to say is that in his opinion (and he maybe right) the more blue dominated panels (like Lush) would have nice buds and nice growth, but not so great trich production, because blue may emphasize growth, while a panel with more Red (like Advanced) might not grow as much/smaller buds/but more trich production from more red dominated light. It an interesting theory, but I think Ronnie's comparison he has going will be best test of this theory.

While my main goal is to see how two lights with drastically different price points compare in overall performance. flower being the emphasis.

 

[Crawdaddy]

re: Advanced LED vs TopLED Side By Side Comparison - Hawaiian Snow & Blueberry

lively discussion that raises good points. very interesting thanks .

I agree completely, I see this journal as a place for people to air out their ideas on why one panel better then the other, and different people are going ot come to different conclusions for their own growing efforts.

i have an inexpensive chinese lamp that seems to grow choice tomatoes. im 1/2 way through a cycle. i hope to post some pics in support of <$1/watt led lights next month.

I am doing my best to not show my price bias for the TopLED lights, but it such a drastic difference, and I just would be VERY surprised to see that much difference in performance. That being said, if equal performance I would be willing to pay a premium for an actual USA made light (well diodes maybe overseas, so let me say assembled), but not over 100% more.

The problem I have with the spendy panels is this, we can tell about how much your lights are costing (assuming made in China) to build by looking at prices on alibaba or buy direct from China individual purchase, then we go and see your price points and it almost impossible to not feel like you are being 'gouged'. But this last statement is just my prejudgment, I am trying my best to be objective in this test.

 

[Governmentchz]

re: Advanced LED vs TopLED Side By Side Comparison - Hawaiian Snow & Blueberry

Well, marketing and pricing strategy basics usually have a generic template that goes something like this: raw cost -> wholesale cost -> -> cost to destination -> 300% markup before placement on shelf. It's economics. The main difference is in this day and age, it's much more transparent than it's been in the past and being able to see that huge markup makes consumers balk...as it should.

 

[Bolivar]

re: Advanced LED vs TopLED Side By Side Comparison - Hawaiian Snow & Blueberry

If a product is over-priced, someone will sell it cheaper. If nobody does that, it's not over-priced. (All things being equal and in a free market...)

 

[Crawdaddy]

re: Advanced LED vs TopLED Side By Side Comparison - Hawaiian Snow & Blueberry

If a product is over-priced, someone will sell it cheaper. If nobody does that, it's not over-priced. (All things being equal and in a free market...)

True, but that is an a mature market(with some regulations, like no monopolies), the LED market is relatively new, and for grow lights even newer, takes a while for the 'impostors' to work out of the market. ANd i seen some that are obvious that I can not mentions in here cause post will get removed, so the market is doing it already, but they where the easy ones.

 

[Crawdaddy]

re: Advanced LED vs TopLED Side By Side Comparison - Hawaiian Snow & Blueberry

Well, marketing and pricing strategy basics usually have a generic template that goes something like this: raw cost -> wholesale cost -> -> cost to destination -> 300% markup before placement on shelf. It's economics. The main difference is in this day and age, it's much more transparent than it's been in the past and being able to see that huge markup makes consumers balk...as it should.

I see your point, and without getting too broad, trying to keep on topic of forum lol, the whole dynamic of global 'free' trade is very interesting and could be very detrimental if not approached the right way.

 

[Hosebomber]

re: Advanced LED vs TopLED Side By Side Comparison - Hawaiian Snow & Blueberry

The differences in thricome and growth production comes from the spectrum used. There are literally thousands of photoreceptors in plants and the chemical interactions with them. If one panel isn't producing enough light in a spectrum then the plant will not be able to perform functions it needs to produce buds or growth or color etc. Finding the correct balance to get all of those is what we have been trying to do for years. We are getting very close (at least I feel so). The next step is keeping those ratios and making the most efficient grow light we can. Less power, less cost, diode prices drop, scale of economics comes into play and we get panels cheaper than HID lighting that grows better plants and produces higher quality and quantity.

 

[Crawdaddy]

re: Advanced LED vs TopLED Side By Side Comparison - Hawaiian Snow & Blueberry

HoseBomber

 

[ecdriver]

re: Advanced LED vs TopLED Side By Side Comparison - Hawaiian Snow & Blueberry

The differences in thricome and growth production comes from the spectrum used. There are literally thousands of photoreceptors in plants and the chemical interactions with them. If one panel isn't producing enough light in a spectrum then the plant will not be able to perform functions it needs to produce buds or growth or color etc. Finding the correct balance to get all of those is what we have been trying to do for years. We are getting very close (at least I feel so). The next step is keeping those ratios and making the most efficient grow light we can. Less power, less cost, diode prices drop, scale of economics comes into play and we get panels cheaper than HID lighting that grows better plants and produces higher quality and quantity.

hey, i need that light you're talking about !!!

 

[ecofrog]

re: Advanced LED vs TopLED Side By Side Comparison - Hawaiian Snow & Blueberry

Lush led Dominator 2x is rated at 70,000 lumens at 18" at 435w. That's 160 lumen per watt with 3w diodes

Then they are mistaken in their measurements. I would be surprised if they were 1/2 that averaged across the fixture.

 

[Billyjack]

re: Advanced LED vs TopLED Side By Side Comparison - Hawaiian Snow & Blueberry

The differences in thricome and growth production comes from the spectrum used. There are literally thousands of photoreceptors in plants and the chemical interactions with them. If one panel isn't producing enough light in a spectrum then the plant will not be able to perform functions it needs to produce buds or growth or color etc. Finding the correct balance to get all of those is what we have been trying to do for years. We are getting very close (at least I feel so). The next step is keeping those ratios and making the most efficient grow light we can. Less power, less cost, diode prices drop, scale of economics comes into play and we get panels cheaper than HID lighting that grows better plants and produces higher quality and quantity.

Shit man, your a smart SOB

 

[CareStaker]

re: Advanced LED vs TopLED Side By Side Comparison - Hawaiian Snow & Blueberry

Originally I was going to build my lights, and so studied up a bit...I forget more than I remember, so I had to copy paste a little below, hope that's OK.

I think Hosebomber already touched on this, but...
Lack of Reds spectrum (630nm, 660nm), being more of an issue in flowering.

Of the three main types of photoreceptors in the plant, Phytochromes are the ones responsible for regulating flowering, and they look for light in the ~660nm, and ~630nm ranges. If you look below, not having these diodes, means that you miss several of the most important absorption peaks, for critical plant functions. At the switch to flowering, the benefit you get from extra blue in Veg, looks like a huge disadvantage, if you look at how many peaks are in that very narrow range, and are mainly absent from white and blue-dominated panels. This is why I would expect big plants, that produce buds of only average quality, from a panel without much in the RED range.

Copy and paste:
Maximum absorption peaks are:

Chlorophyll A: Absorbance Maxima: 430nm and 662nm peaks

Chlorophyll B: Absorbance maxima: 453nm and 642nm peaks

Phycocyanin: Absorbance Maxima: 623m, and 637nm peaks

Carotene: Absorbance Maxima: 450nm and 478nm peaks

Xanthopyhll: Absorbance Maxima: 494nm peak

Anthocyanins: Absorbance Maxima: 525nm peak


End Copy & Paste

The above peaks should also be supplemented, imo. Even green light, should in the LED ratio, as it's is a regulator for other plant functions, as is IR.
Thank you, CD for a great thread.

 

[Hosebomber]

re: Advanced LED vs TopLED Side By Side Comparison - Hawaiian Snow & Blueberry

Care, do you mind me asking where you got those numbers?

I have
Phycoerthrin 495, 545, & 566

Remember that Xanthopyhlls cover a large group of photoreceptors like: lutein, zeaxanthin, neoxanthin, violaxanthin, and α- and β-cryptoxanthin
Lutein 420, 447, & 477
Zeaxanthin 423, 451, &483
Cryptoxanthol 425, 451, & 483

Likewise, there are multiple receptors that fall into the carotene group along with alpha beta and zeta.