Flushing & Leaching & Final Bud Swell

MAK1 said:
Thank you. Help me under one flush type. Staying with Fox Farm schedule and I am going to do a flush going into flower. What Do I do? I should pour 15 gallons of sledge hammer treated water over each 5 gallon pot to flush away water soluble salts built up in my soil. There's no possible way that could be right. There must be a thousand old hippies shaking their heads saying, "Damn kids these days don't know shit."
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Please read the directions that come with the Sledgehammer. You will find that they do not require you to use 15 gallons. This is the whole point of buying and using this product.
 
Nunyabiz said:
Flushing the soil is a legit practice in fact usually a necessary practice to re-balance a medium like Coco if using salt based nutrients especially if you overdo it.
THAT is what you use 3x the volume of water mixed with something like Yucca to flush salts from the soil.
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just to be difficult ... i do something different in coco and hempy.
with a salt based bottle nute i run a f/f/w schedule. i use calmag on the water side and i ph all the time.

twice during veg and once in flower i do a flush. but i don't bother with 3x bucket amount yada yada...
what is do is run water and h202 through twice till i get 10 - 25% run off each time.

i use 27 - 35% h202 at 1ml/L which is pretty strong. sometimes i only bother to run it through once.

i don't feed after for 24 - 48 hrs. the plants will surge like nuts. i know a few guys who do the same in hp type media. same results, just a little slower to show.

i run mc now, so my practices have changed a bit from then.








Nunyabiz said:
That is not the same as the old growers tail of flushing the plants the final 2 weeks which simply means to just use plain water in a normal watering pattern for the final two weeks.
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i honestly think the end flush was taken very much mistakenly.
again, i learnt something different. just to be a pissant. it's very much in line with your observations.


i also watch for a natural senescence. all plants do it when they ripen. i've always noticed, and have been taught, at some point at the end the plant stops feeding. period.

it's not due to lockout or any other condition, it's just done. they have a tendency to slow feeding down before, so it's easy to tell. plus a look through the loupe always confirms it's time.

at this point i ' go to water ' meaning i don't feed nutes. i may or may not ph. all i'm doing is keeping the water in the plant for a few days while i gear up to chop. this simply keeps the plant around a few extra days if i'm waiting for others or just letting a few trichomes join the amber team.

it's not really a plan, it's just suspending nutes as they won't use it anyway. it's saving cash. and washing the root zone doesn't make sense, as they never really pull much water at that point anyway.


there's bunches of folk i know who do it this way.


 
I find that mine do most of their fattening of the bud the final two weeks.
In LOS in large pots there's no reason to change anything I just let the plant and microbes do what they do.
The plant takes what it needs.
I always keep the soil nice and moist.
Never need to pH.

This next grow I think I am going to do mostly just Fermented Plant Juice, thats supposed to really bring out the terpenes.

Maybe plants grown in coco have a slightly different life cycle because you're the one feeding it as opposed to it helping itself to what it needs.
And that life cycle could change from grower to grower because of what and how much they feed.
 
Nunyabiz said:
I find that mine do most of their fattening of the bud the final two weeks.
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so many miss that swell.
it can be deceptive as the plant can slow just before. loads of folk harvest a bit early at that point.




Nunyabiz said:
In LOS in large pots there's no reason to change anything I just let the plant and microbes do what they do.
The plant takes what it needs.
I always keep the soil nice and moist.
Never need to pH.
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i'd love to grow organic. always wanted to try some sort of closed loop organics. it pretty much requires an ownership circumstance i don't see myself achieving unfortunately.




Nunyabiz said:
Maybe plants grown in coco have a slightly different life cycle because you're the one feeding it as opposed to it helping itself to what it needs.
And that life cycle could change from grower to grower because of what and how much they feed.
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at the early onset of hydro it was very much described as a forced feeding situation. it took some time for things to sort themselves. it was very much a game changer here by the early 80's.
 
Nunyabiz said:
And I bet your plant surging after using the H202 is because the roots getting a lot of oxygen.
Thats why I always super oxygenate my water, I like to keep my plants roots happy, keep them surging.
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oh definitely that's part of it.
the other side of the equation is the h202 strips everything away and neutralizes the media. even after the plants will continue to do better.

i use mc now, and i really don't have to do an h202 flush at all anymore. i've done it a couple times to see, and they just wound up hungry lol ... no surge or anything :p

every once in a while i'll run one if i think of it, but i always have to feed right away or the next day or they get pouty


in old school rdwc i ran it constant as a sterile res. i think pretty much everyone did. i kinda remember conversations at hydro shops where it was just a given.
 
safeman said:
Great information on "flushing" This only shows the the on-going debate on flushing is still an on-going Debate !!!! Guess it comes down to personal judgement be it right or wrong ( the last grow I really pushed it with nutes with no flush and the result was terrible tasting end results
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You pushed her hard on nutes. Awesome, it's kinda fun to find out what we can get away with adding. I ask about only one thing, did you change your nitrogen source over to ammoniacal or urea forms only? Simply put, no more nitrates for the last few weeks.
 
Emilya said:
It still takes a bit of nitrogen at the end to help build up bud mass. Most Bloom nutes do use the alternate form of N for what is needed, so most growers have not had to even consider this aspect of types of N being used... they simply trust their nute line.
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n will fall back, but the plant uses more in flower than most think.
 
MAK1 said:
There must be a thousand old hippies shaking their heads saying, "Damn kids these days don't know shit."
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My opinion on starvation flushing, based on scientific studies (not anectdotal evidence which carries a high degree of bias), is that starvation flushing is useless and counter-productive. It makes no sense to deprive a plant of nutrients during it's final push and bud swelling. I do have a minor in Botany. Now for flushing to remove salts: My bonafide, I'm one of those old hippies, used to grow in Humboldt Co. back in the mid 70's. Almost all grows were outside, in soil. Indoor grows were rare and mostly unsuccesful. Grow lights at that time were in their infancy, most lights were simply coated incandescent lights or neon lights. Very poor for growing. Outdoor soil grows in amended soil didn't need flushing, but at the same time, we weren't slamming the amount of nutes into the plants that they do today. I now grow indoors and outdoors (during summer). Outdoors I use FFOF that has been dug into the soil. Never have to flush. Indoors I also use FFOF, but I do occassionally have to flush, particularly if I re-use the soil for the next grow. It's pretty easy to tell when a flush is needed, the leaves will start to yellow quickly, and you can see a white "crust" on the outside of the fabric pot. At that point I take them outdoors and pour the water to them, I use 10 gallon grow bags, and it takes quite a bit to flush them. After you finish the soil has been re-set. Once they dry enough to need watering again, I will resume nutes. The smaller the pot, the more lkely you'll need to flush. IMHO, we put waaay to many nutes on the plants. I've found that about 1/2 strength nutes will work just fine (remember they are trying to sell nutes). I have to PH my water as it's about 7.5 PH. I also check the PPM of dissolved solids because too high of dissolved solids will interfere with nutrient uptake. My water can range from 450 PPM dissolved solids to over 2400 PPM, depending on which well the water company is drawing from.
 
Yeah, it’s terrible, people with r/o systems have to change membranes very frequently. When we were totally on the old well every month all the faucet screens and shower heads got soaked in Ca/lime remover or they’d clog up. I could never grow coco or hydro with this water. I live 20 feet from a saltwater slough that’s part of San Francisco Bay, my garage is 6 feet below sea level!
 
Phytoplankton said:
My opinion on starvation flushing, based on scientific studies (not anectdotal evidence which carries a high degree of bias), is that starvation flushing is useless and counter-productive. It makes no sense to deprive a plant of nutrients during it's final push and bud swelling. I do have a minor in Botany. Now for flushing to remove salts: My bonafide, I'm one of those old hippies, used to grow in Humboldt Co. back in the mid 70's. Almost all grows were outside, in soil. Indoor grows were rare and mostly unsuccesful. Grow lights at that time were in their infancy, most lights were simply coated incandescent lights or neon lights. Very poor for growing. Outdoor soil grows in amended soil didn't need flushing, but at the same time, we weren't slamming the amount of nutes into the plants that they do today. I now grow indoors and outdoors (during summer). Outdoors I use FFOF that has been dug into the soil. Never have to flush. Indoors I also use FFOF, but I do occassionally have to flush, particularly if I re-use the soil for the next grow. It's pretty easy to tell when a flush is needed, the leaves will start to yellow quickly, and you can see a white "crust" on the outside of the fabric pot. At that point I take them outdoors and pour the water to them, I use 10 gallon grow bags, and it takes quite a bit to flush them. After you finish the soil has been re-set. Once they dry enough to need watering again, I will resume nutes. The smaller the pot, the more lkely you'll need to flush. IMHO, we put waaay to many nutes on the plants. I've found that about 1/2 strength nutes will work just fine (remember they are trying to sell nutes). I have to PH my water as it's about 7.5 PH. I also check the PPM of dissolved solids because too high of dissolved solids will interfere with nutrient uptake. My water can range from 450 PPM dissolved solids to over 2400 PPM, depending on which well the water company is drawing from.
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Thanks for the straight advice.
A question for my setup and my amount of understanding. It's a question, not an opinion.
If I have overfed and the salts built up gradually I might have seen slow changes in my plant.
By checking the ppm of the effluent I should have noticed an issue and backed off the feedings.
I slowly worked her soil up and now I'm wanting a more gentle clearing over a couple cycles to gently bring her back down. Testing the ppm as I go and using it as a reference point.
What am I testing for? I should probably have a clue what I did wrong. The way I mix my synthetic add-ins more than likely I have over done it on a single item. Do I really need to flush/crash my soil system and start over? It's likely overdosed on MgSO4 again. I have notes and it is a mineral issue for sure confirmed by the plant.. I certainly can't look at the clarity of the effluent for my answer on Mg.
 
bluter said:
yes. and yet here we are.

in a perfect world i could share a few hoots and couple pints with you @Nunyabiz
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I found the use of the term bewildering because it means so many different things at different times and has too many different purposes. It's a messy term that needs some modifiers for clarity. Maybe some day there will be a symposium.
We might say it with a prefix
-CalMag flush for when we add this
-clearing flush for when we mess up
-pre-flower flush at lighting switch to 12/12
-bud swell flush for that final growth before harvest.
p.s. No one even notices the 800# gorilla standing there with a bottle labeled "Nitrates POISONOUS".
 
MAK1 said:
I found the use of the term bewildering because it means so many different things at different times and has too many different purposes. It's a messy term that needs some modifiers for clarity. Maybe some day there will be a symposium.
Click to expand...


it's misused and over used.

i'm pretty sure the practice of end flushing was mythologized in some book or other. there weren't a lot of resources pre-internet, and people passed around whatever they could get their hands on.

it was dangerous to sell books on cannabis at one point. i remember getting photocopies of a photocopy once.
 
MAK1 said:
Thanks for the straight advice.
A question for my setup and my amount of understanding. It's a question, not an opinion.
If I have overfed and the salts built up gradually I might have seen slow changes in my plant.
By checking the ppm of the effluent I should have noticed an issue and backed off the feedings.
I slowly worked her soil up and now I'm wanting a more gentle clearing over a couple cycles to gently bring her back down. Testing the ppm as I go and using it as a reference point.
What am I testing for? I should probably have a clue what I did wrong. The way I mix my synthetic add-ins more than likely I have over done it on a single item. Do I really need to flush/crash my soil system and start over? It's likely overdosed on MgSO4 again. I have notes and it is a mineral issue for sure confirmed by the plant.. I certainly can't look at the clarity of the effluent for my answer on Mg.
Click to expand...
If you don't want to do a full flush, you may be abe to just water heavily (plain water or distilled depending) two or three times to good runoff (20%) in succession and that may solve your issue. More important than whats coming out of the pot, is what's going into it. Chek your water to see what your PPM's going in are. I'd buy distilled water for the waterings, it has almost no dissolved solids and will aid the flush. My water is so unpredictable that I check PPM's and PH each time I water. Sometimes depending on what I find I'll go buy 5 gallons of water from a machine, because there's almost no dissolved solids, though I still have to adjust the PH down. I have a gallon of phosphoric acid, a capful or two will take the PH from 7 to 5.5 in 6 gallons. My water is loaded with CA, Na, Mg, Mn, Fe, Bo, but the PH makes most of those nutes unavailable to the plant. There's so much Iron in the water that if you leave a bucket of it outdoors for 3-4 days, as the PH drops (from atmospheric Co2) the water will turn red from iron oxide.
 
Nunyabiz said:
Been proven over and over that flushing which is really nothing but starving the plant in its final two weeks accomplishes two things .
About a 10+% loss in yield
And maybe about a week less of flower.
It does ZERO to quality, taste, etc.

As long as you're not force feeding it plant available nitrogen then its going to naturally fade, turn yellow, and slowly die as bud ripen.
Starving the plant during its fattening stage is counter productive.

I much prefer to allow the plant to naturally go into senescence and to finish on its own time.
Take from the soil what it needs when it needs it.
Like its done for 400 million years.

The only need for flushing is to remove salts from soil if you bottle feed.
Which IMO if you're going to grow in soil then grow in soil, just amend the soil and have large enough pots for the plant to have all it needs.
If you prefer bottled nutrients then you're better off using Coco.
Coco as a medium is much better for feeding salt based nutrients, much easier to water much easier to flush salts out when needed.
Click to expand...
how true -- starving the plant during flush --many cultivators DO feed the last two weeks before harvest. MY self I use (Fish Shit.com) it's organic soil conditioner, this works very well for me there was a "tst" ru about flushing giving a plant a 2-4 days flush 7 day flush and a 2 week flush the end result wa the 2-4 day flush worked best (better tasting , ect ((will the the article about this for reference)) I f one is concerned abut the salts you should start considering this in late flower before flush - This debate wil go on for ever !!!!!!!!!!!
 
Phytoplankton said:
If you don't want to do a full flush, you may be abe to just water heavily (plain water or distilled depending) two or three times to good runoff (20%) in succession and that may solve your issue. More important than whats coming out of the pot, is what's going into it. Chek your water to see what your PPM's going in are. I'd buy distilled water for the waterings, it has almost no dissolved solids and will aid the flush. My water is so unpredictable that I check PPM's and PH each time I water. Sometimes depending on what I find I'll go buy 5 gallons of water from a machine, because there's almost no dissolved solids, though I still have to adjust the PH down. I have a gallon of phosphoric acid, a capful or two will take the PH from 7 to 5.5 in 6 gallons. My water is loaded with CA, Na, Mg, Mn, Fe, Bo, but the PH makes most of those nutes unavailable to the plant. There's so much Iron in the water that if you leave a bucket of it outdoors for 3-4 days, as the PH drops (from atmospheric Co2) the water will turn red from iron oxide.
Click to expand...
Here's the skinny on my clearing flush.
The setup is a soil blend. I'm using synthetics and pushing the edges just a bit extra with no negatives from the plant until the last 2 weeks she's not as happy. Around weeks 7to8 after 12/12. Estimate 3 weeks to harvest on the BB3.
I treated distilled water with yucca and lemon juice to pH 6.3. I dumped 1 quart then another quart 2 minutes later. Then I waited a few minutes and repeated. I did this for 6 total gallons. I checked the ppm of the effluent as I went.
1.5 gallons ppm 550
2.0 gallons ppm 860
2.5 gallons ppm 1260
4.0 gallons ppm 2000
5.0 gallons ppm 850
6.0 gallons ppm 560
In a more complete world I would test for mineral content of the top suspects. I am not concerned about nitrates at this point because they got pulled in late veg.
I stopped here seeing numbers I feel good about. I'm not sure where to go from here, maybe 1/2 strength nutes from here with molasses.
p.s. Molasses: I got 2 bottles of molasses from Plantation. One small bottle came from the grocery, one bottle came from the internet. The same thing? Not even close. One bottle stated 600mg potassium /TBS the other bottle has 325mg. I never had such watery molasses. Early harvest vs late harvest? This is why we use unsulphured so we get higher mineral content. Beware and read labels. What you bought last week may be different today.
 
MAK1 said:
Here's the skinny on my clearing flush.
The setup is a soil blend. I'm using synthetics and pushing the edges just a bit extra with no negatives from the plant until the last 2 weeks she's not as happy. Around weeks 7to8 after 12/12. Estimate 3 weeks to harvest on the BB3.
I treated distilled water with yucca and lemon juice to pH 6.3. I dumped 1 quart then another quart 2 minutes later. Then I waited a few minutes and repeated. I did this for 6 total gallons. I checked the ppm of the effluent as I went.
1.5 gallons ppm 550
2.0 gallons ppm 860
2.5 gallons ppm 1260
4.0 gallons ppm 2000
5.0 gallons ppm 850
6.0 gallons ppm 560
In a more complete world I would test for mineral content of the top suspects. I am not concerned about nitrates at this point because they got pulled in late veg.
I stopped here seeing numbers I feel good about. I'm not sure where to go from here, maybe 1/2 strength nutes from here with molasses.
p.s. Molasses: I got 2 bottles of molasses from Plantation. One small bottle came from the grocery, one bottle came from the internet. The same thing? Not even close. One bottle stated 600mg potassium /TBS the other bottle has 325mg. I never had such watery molasses. Early harvest vs late harvest? This is why we use unsulphured so we get higher mineral content. Beware and read labels. What you bought last week may be different today.
Click to expand...
interesting information -- Thanks !! I use de-natured water (water left out for 24hrs. before use)
 

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