Clearly you aren't flushing with Brawndo like you should. Brawndo has what plants crave!
Flushing & Leaching & Final Bud Swell
The science of the flush? Seriously? Who's science? Bruce Buggy? Harley Smith? I studied the science of human anatomy and physiology for 4 years and 3 years of other sciences leading up to that. This is not so difficult. Plants have very few parameters. to consider by comparison to animals. The science you refer to is mostly pseudosciences.
I read all the way through your comments before I realized it was Emilya. You have attacked nearly everything I have said ever since I called you out for your misunderstanding of far-red lighting. Thinking you could get 14 hours of light during flower. I'll respond to you only because I care about you spreading more garbage to the masses. This is intended to be a friendly website. What's your excuse?
If you can't flush a plant (you can't) then why is the pseudoscience doing so much testing after the flush and reporting so many things that have NOTHING to do with anything. They report an entire mineral profile as if matters, right.
If you have any information directly from Fox Farms about flushing please show me. I looked and found no mention of flushing techniques on their website. Sounds like you are trying to flush away your cheating agents and synthetic has nothing to do with flushing. The only benefit of "organic" over synthetic is to avoid pesticides, herbicides, organophosphates. The whole organic issue is blown out of focus by the same pseudoscientists and politicians making money from it. You, however, jump straight across the river to the safe side and say organic can't build up because someone tole me that. They are wrong as well. Synthetic is not poisonous. Pesticides and herbicides are always toxic, we don't use these here.
15-20% runoff when feeding is to prevent salt build up. I add additional yucca as a surfactant, is this not also the main ingredient in clearing/flushing agents? Intentionally skewing the methodology of a test gives the results you want but does not look for or even seek to answer any questions. Proper methodologies are time consuming I am not answering that garbage here. Not the right venue for honest answer$.
If there is a problem with nutrient lockout then by all means run som water through and start over. My first question is what mistake(s) was made that ever lead to a nutrient lockout in the first place? This does not just happen unless mistakes are made.
Emilya Green
Well-Known Member
The studies on this extend well into the past, at least somewhere in the 1960's. How large do you need this study to be before it becomes valid? Surely 60 years of growing this plant within a community is enough to start getting an idea? Actually, there was no confusion at all until a few years ago, when the word flush started being used to mean an end of the grow starvation, and when others started advocating that there was never a need to flush. As short as 5 or 6 years ago, flushing was the first advice you would get in online forums when you had a problem and many of us still believe that to be the best thing to start with.
I completely agree with you. Hell, Ive been growing for 50 years or so.
This is just a fun pot to stir, it seems like people get hung up on the wrong ideas.
Is there post with a compilation of links to all these studies? Maybe someone should make one and settle the debate?
Emilya Green
Well-Known Member
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No one knows if 2.375 x the container volume vs 3x is a better number... we all simply agreed years and years ago that 3x seemed to do a pretty good job of clearing any problems. When you do a flush like this, you can still see colored water coming out of the bottom, well into that 3rd volume of water, telling me that it needs this much. I am also totally convinced that doing a 20% runoff, or 1/15th of a normal 3x flush, each time you water, is not quite the same thing... the math (science of numbers) does not lie. But again, wheel in the lazy grower for his/her opinion, and they will side on doing things the easy way every time. It is no surprise to me that there is a following that believes in the 20% runoff flush, that actually is a 6.666667% flush when you understand the math. (science of numbers) Something worth doing is worth doing it right, with no shortcuts. You, even with all of your diplomacy, will be unable to convince me otherwise.
No one knows if 2.375 x the container volume vs 3x is a better number... we all simply agreed years and years ago that 3x seemed to do a pretty good job of clearing any problems. When you do a flush like this, you can still see colored water coming out of the bottom, well into that 3rd volume of water, telling me that it needs this much. I am also totally convinced that doing a 20% runoff, or 1/15th of a normal 3x flush, each time you water, is not quite the same thing... the math (science of numbers) does not lie. But again, wheel in the lazy grower for his/her opinion, and they will side on doing things the easy way every time. It is no surprise to me that there is a following that believes in the 20% runoff flush, that actually is a 6.666667% flush when you understand the math. (science of numbers) Something worth doing is worth doing it right, with no shortcuts. You, even with all of your diplomacy, will be unable to convince me otherwise.
I am trying to imagine someone with (6 to 8) 25 gallon planters. 600 gallons of water to flush the soil once. I had (6) 5 gallon pots or 90 gallons of water to flush once @ 3X volume. I should flush for 2 weeks? a month? What, twice a week for a month? 700+ gallons of water to flush away some water soluble salts. OK, flush once to rid water soluble salts that never built up in the first place because I feed 20% runoff.
I know our plants produce way better than commercial growers. Can you even imagine professionals simply throwing away 20% of the cost of feed/fertilizers. Then trying to clear away excess salts. Shoot, I did not know it was feed/water/feed/water. My first grow I was out of town a lot so I messed up doing a feed/feed/feed/feed. I absolutely hammered the nutes and it didn't even mater till the last 3 weeks. I did a flush with 1/2 water volume and corrected any issues. I would love to see where Fox Farm states 3X flushing and can support their reasonings based on legitimate scientific data. I keep looking for a company to make a claim as this. I already have smoke...and a mirror, and a fan to blow it around, and some lighting to make it look cool. The visual looks like an intro to WWE cage match. That's my commercial. "BUY my product". Made right here in the great State of (fill in the blank)!
I know our plants produce way better than commercial growers. Can you even imagine professionals simply throwing away 20% of the cost of feed/fertilizers. Then trying to clear away excess salts. Shoot, I did not know it was feed/water/feed/water. My first grow I was out of town a lot so I messed up doing a feed/feed/feed/feed. I absolutely hammered the nutes and it didn't even mater till the last 3 weeks. I did a flush with 1/2 water volume and corrected any issues. I would love to see where Fox Farm states 3X flushing and can support their reasonings based on legitimate scientific data. I keep looking for a company to make a claim as this. I already have smoke...and a mirror, and a fan to blow it around, and some lighting to make it look cool. The visual looks like an intro to WWE cage match. That's my commercial. "BUY my product". Made right here in the great State of (fill in the blank)!
How many grows you done friend?
Emilya Green
Well-Known Member
maybe you understand now why most commercial ops are hydro. It is a whole lot easier to flush a large reservoir than to flush that much soil.... and yes, hydro ops using synthetic nutes also have to flush.
Regarding scientific data... since most of that comes from universities and since this plant is still illegal to possess in many areas of the world, where exactly is all that scientific research supposed to happen???? Where would the money come from to fund such an illegal operation????
Nunyabiz
Well-Known Member
You seem to be combining "flushing soil" with "flushing the plant".
Flushing the soil is a legit practice in fact usually a necessary practice to re-balance a medium like Coco if using salt based nutrients especially if you overdo it.
THAT is what you use 3x the volume of water mixed with something like Yucca to flush salts from the soil.
That is not the same as the old growers tail of flushing the plants the final 2 weeks which simply means to just use plain water in a normal watering pattern for the final two weeks.
And anyone using 20+ gallon pots will be growing organically which won't be using salt based nutrients and likely just using plain water for 90% of the grow anyway.
Emilya Green
Well-Known Member
If I were running a commercial operation, OH! Wait! I am!, extra work and extra expense would be things I would try to avoid. This is why I run regular soil and any sized container, with a good organic fertilizer. This totally eliminates the need to flush salts out of my soils. In addition to that, my plants are being fed perfectly, everything they need, right to the very end. This way of doing business seems smart to me, but better than that, being able to reuse practically everything in my grow rooms, including my soil and plant debris from the last grow, combined with being powered by solar, I have a zero carbon footprint if not lower. Proof is in the pudding my friend.
@Nunyabiz ... I don't recall why we ever fought... I have agreed with almost every syllable you have written since you re-emerged for me. Thank you for adding your common sense to this discussion.
@Nunyabiz ... I don't recall why we ever fought... I have agreed with almost every syllable you have written since you re-emerged for me. Thank you for adding your common sense to this discussion.
Nunyabiz
Well-Known Member
Cannabis Flushing Research Trial
In our research trial, RX Green Technologies evaluated the effects of different flushing times on chemical profile, flavor, and smoke of cannabis flower.
www.rxgreentechnologies.com
There are quite a few studies on this and all come to the same conclusion.
yes. and yet here we are.
in a perfect world i could share a few hoots and couple pints with you @Nunyabiz
Emilya Green
Well-Known Member
Sorry @Nunyabiz but neither of these studies address the concept of flushing when it is used to mean a 3x flush of the soil, with the goal of clearing the soil of built up salts. Let's see if we can find one that directly speaks to what we are discussing here.
In this first study, they speak of flushing as the act of starvation... a water only diet for different periods of time. I have ignored this study because of this, it seems logical that a plant does not like being starved and that this has nothing to do with "flushing" the soil.
The second study is flawed in my evaluation because it is still looking at the effects of stressing the plant by starving it. It then says there are two kinds of flushers, but fail to include a third theory that explains those who flush in order to clear salt from the soil and for no other reason than that. Without that third theory, in my opinion this study also has nothing to do with a discussion on "flushing." Flushing has nothing at all to do with purposely stressing the plant the way that I understand the definition.
In this first study, they speak of flushing as the act of starvation... a water only diet for different periods of time. I have ignored this study because of this, it seems logical that a plant does not like being starved and that this has nothing to do with "flushing" the soil.
The second study is flawed in my evaluation because it is still looking at the effects of stressing the plant by starving it. It then says there are two kinds of flushers, but fail to include a third theory that explains those who flush in order to clear salt from the soil and for no other reason than that. Without that third theory, in my opinion this study also has nothing to do with a discussion on "flushing." Flushing has nothing at all to do with purposely stressing the plant the way that I understand the definition.
The first thing I tried to find out is how do I flush. Not even what where when or why. Just HOW? that lead me here. "Flushing the nutrition out of the soil – Yes, you can do that – especially in a hydro grow." Theory #1 from the reference above.
What I will never do is pour 15 gallons of water over my little 5 gallon pots and I don't care what flavor the rest of you drink. That ain't right in my world.
I look at different companies and their nutrient schedules, the one thing all change at the end of flower is the form of Nitrogen they use. If you ask 5 professionals for an opinion and get 5 radically different answers, consider any lawman's opinion to be valid as any trained professional. That's where I'm at with flushing. Metaphorically, 5 answers to a question I never asked.
Merry Christmas
How about this- I don't care one way or the other what anyone does with their own plants...flush, don't flush, whatever....
It's up to the grower.
I've seen a lot of similar discussions on the subject, and no one's mind gets changed, so why bother fighting about it discussing it?
Do it, don't do it, it's up to you
It's up to the grower.
I've seen a lot of similar discussions on the subject, and no one's mind gets changed, so why bother
Do it, don't do it, it's up to you
Definitely need to determine what kind of flushing we're talking about. There's flushing to remove excess salts and re-set the soil, this can be necessary at most any time during a grow, and then there's flushing to induce starvation of the plant before harvest, starvation flushing has been proven to be just about useless. Flushing to remove excess salts and cure Lock-out is a reality, and often a necessary one.
Nunyabiz
Well-Known Member
Thats all fine and dandy.
I flushed "soil" once in my life and that was first grow, that was also first and last grow using bottled plant available nutrients.
I had slightly overdone the nutrients in veg and when I flipped to flower and doubled my PPFD on lights everything went whack and I needed to flush out the soil a bit (7 gal fabric pot) to basically reboot.
Within 24 hours it was right back to normal.
Been using larger and larger pots of Living Organic Soil ever since thus never any reason to reboot the soil, no bottled nutrients used.
But regardless of all that the only question here is whether or not "flushing the plant" during the final two weeks of growth has any positive effects on the final dried and cured bud, and it definitively does not.
As for flushing the soil,hydro-soil or hydro do it or don't do it.
It only matters if you have phucked up the balance of your grow medium.
So if for whatever reason the last week of veg you end up having way too much nitrogen then you can choose to "flush" some of that nitrogen from your medium or can choose to have nitrogen toxicity going into flower.
Apparently you're very fortunate to never have an over abundance of one or more nutrients.
I hope you continue to have this good fortune.
OH no. I screwed up big time. I am nearly done with my second grow. Nannered most of my first bag seed plants. Wrecked another one in veg and put one into shock deep into flower resulting in garbage in the end. That left me with 2 awesome healthy plants that showed me SOO many ways I could have done better. I don't feel too bad about these major screw ups. I learned more in my mistakes than I would have in years of healthy plants.
As all this was going on I was driving 3 hours home every 3 days to feed the darn things. My wife was in the hospital for 49 days. She has now had 6 major surgeries and 2 minors since September. She is home now for Christmas. Since she is my only patient she is well cared for. I know exactly what to do when I flush an IV or a catheter, etc. I see someone flush red in the face. I flush a toilet, twice, it's a long way to Chicago. I just wanted to know what flush means. We are talking about a simple plant. Compared to human physiology, plants are so simple everyone around the world grows something.
I don't have a typical life style this is more like a game where I remove one item at a time and replace it with another weird source. Like how much apple squeezings/juice can I add before my "organic" source is an issue for the soil or the plants? Why would anyone do that? Take a few hits of the last stuff I grew and you will all understand too, LOL. On the first grow I pushed too hard on a feed/feed/feed/feed/feed but the JC bag seed plants took it all until the end where I should have "flushed" twice.
Merry Christmas
Thank you. Help me under one flush type. Staying with Fox Farm schedule and I am going to do a flush going into flower. What Do I do? I should pour 15 gallons of sledge hammer treated water over each 5 gallon pot to flush away water soluble salts built up in my soil. There's no possible way that could be right. There must be a thousand old hippies shaking their heads saying, "Damn kids these days don't know shit."
Great information on "flushing" This only shows the the on-going debate on flushing is still an on-going Debate !!!! Guess it comes down to personal judgement be it right or wrong ( the last grow I really pushed it with nutes with no flush and the result was terrible tasting end results
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