In The Lab

[Graytail]

I've been doing some reading about mycorrhizal fungi and apparently already-infected roots are a superior means of introducing the mycos into new soil.

Does anyone use the old root mass for humus in their new soil? Do you throw it out or reuse it? It might make a big difference.

 

[Doc Bud]

I've been doing some reading about mycorrhizal fungi and apparently already-infected roots are a superior means of introducing the mycos into new soil.

Does anyone use the old root mass for humus in their new soil? Do you throw it out or reuse it? It might make a big difference.

I am recycling soil, keeping roots. The longer it cooks, the fewer roots can be seen, which mean the humus content increases. I highly recommend this practice for maybe 4 cycles of use before resting the soil....lots of flushing, cover crops, etc.

For most indoor growers, it means you buy 2/3 less soil than before, and throw out the stuff with 3 or 4 cycles.....probably 4, we'll find out.

 

[Any2cards]

Re: "In the Lab" with Doc Bud

Great question bro! The idea is to mix up the Energy and Tea in a gallon of water, letting it sit for 20 minutes or so is nice....wake sup the tea.....and then to take that gallon eveny distribute it to the plants.

So, let's say you're watering 6 plants....gonna use say 8 gallons of water total......

Take the gallon of Energy and Tea you just mixed up, put a half gallon in one bucket and the other half in another bucket.....fill each bucket to 4 gallons and go ahead and water each plant with a gallon of water.

The half oz. of Energy will cover 16 sq. feet, while a full oz. covers 32 sq. feet. The directions for the kit are all based on 6 plants in 7 gallon pots, or their equivalent. (5 gallon root makers)

I know this sounds kind of complicated at first, but in the end it looks like this:

1.)in a 1 gallon pitcher/bucket....whatever, pour 1/2 oz of Energy. Fill to top with water....squirt 2 mil of Tea into the mix....stir it up and go busy yourself doing something else for 20 minutes.

2.)distribute that gallon of feed water evenly to the plants!

That's it. Outdoors a hose-end sprayer works very well....indoors this usually means hand watering, unless you have fertigation....which I do not at this time. So, if you need 10 gallons of water, put 1/2 gallon of feed water made in step one into two 5 gallon buckets and top them off with water and evenly distribute to the plants.

This is important!

Occasionally, like during stretch, you might have to double up on a feeding. Don't be afraid to feed them a bit more often during times of rapid growth.

Also, you're going to be flirting with a magnesium deficiency at times. I suggest adding 7 tsp. of Epsom Salt to 5 gallons of feed water two or three times during stretch and bulking phases. That seems to be the sweet spot. Some strains do not require this...some do. Just look for taco-shaped leaves to see if you need it. We want to avoid a deficiency....barely.

You could use another method.....anything that evenly distributes the feed water to the plants is a 100% correct method.

Maybe I'll do a step by step photo tutorial on feeding. It's so dang simple....and I think that's what throws people off.

Hey Doc,
soil is cooked and ready to go on this side by side outdoor comparison grow and I just wanted to confirm a few things here on the amounts here for feeding before I get them in these (6) 20-25 gal containers so bear with me. Since the directions for the kit are based on (6) 7 gallon pots would the same .5oz/2ml formula work for say 20 gallons or (4) 5 gallon buckets? "Anything that distributes the feed water to the plants is a 100% correct method". " The half oz. of Energy will cover 16 sq. feet, while a full oz. covers 32 sq. feet. The directions for the kit are all based on 6 plants in 7 gallon pots, or their equivalent. (5 gallon root makers)"

Again I just want to make sure as basically I am tripling the soil amounts and I don't quite understand the 16 sq ft per .5 oz ratio(high brix growing for dummies!lol).

I did experience the mag def you speak of above of leaf twisting and tacoing and had burnt necrotic edges on some but a touch of cal/mag has them going in the right direction. I had a crappy pump sprayer that would "blop" the stress sometimes instead of the fine mist during foliar on a few applications and perhaps got them too wet. Went out and got the 1 liter Solo with an adjustable nozzle at Osh and they work pretty good. I think Ice or Vape mentioned those earlier that come in 2 liter with an extension as well. Also you can use the small misters that people use to cool off that deliver a fine mist as well or the little 4 oz sprayer that are used for eyeglass cleaner sprays. Most of those hand trigger spayers deliver a bloppy course spray. Anyway.......puff puff pass.

Peace,

Any2

 

[Doc Bud]

Re: "In the Lab" with Doc Bud

Hey Doc,
soil is cooked and ready to go on this side by side outdoor comparison grow and I just wanted to confirm a few things here on the amounts here for feeding before I get them in these (6) 20-25 gal containers so bear with me. Since the directions for the kit are based on (6) 7 gallon pots would the same .5oz/2ml formula work for say 20 gallons or (4) 5 gallon buckets? "Anything that distributes the feed water to the plants is a 100% correct method". " The half oz. of Energy will cover 16 sq. feet, while a full oz. covers 32 sq. feet. The directions for the kit are all based on 6 plants in 7 gallon pots, or their equivalent. (5 gallon root makers)"

Again I just want to make sure as basically I am tripling the soil amounts and I don't quite understand the 16 sq ft per .5 oz ratio(high brix growing for dummies!lol).

I did experience the mag def you speak of above of leaf twisting and tacoing and had burnt necrotic edges on some but a touch of cal/mag has them going in the right direction. I had a crappy pump sprayer that would "blop" the stress sometimes instead of the fine mist during foliar on a few applications and perhaps got them too wet. Went out and got the 1 liter Solo with an adjustable nozzle at Osh and they work pretty good. I think Ice or Vape mentioned those earlier that come in 2 liter with an extension as well. Also you can use the small misters that people use to cool off that deliver a fine mist as well or the little 4 oz sprayer that are used for eyeglass cleaner sprays. Most of those hand trigger spayers deliver a bloppy course spray. Anyway.......puff puff pass.

Peace,

Any2

I would use 1.5 oz to 3 oz.....just depends on how things shake out. Evenly distribute that to all the plants.

BTW, if you've got the means, I highly suggest a Dosatron for larger indoor, or backyard sized outdoor or larger grows. It allows even distribution via fertigation, set and forget. Very, very cool.

About 400 bucks, and worth every penny for the professional.

 

[Any2cards]

Re: "In the Lab" with Doc Bud

I would use 1.5 oz to 3 oz.....just depends on how things shake out. Evenly distribute that to all the plants.

BTW, if you've got the means, I highly suggest a Dosatron for larger indoor, or backyard sized outdoor or larger grows. It allows even distribution via fertigation, set and forget. Very, very cool.

About 400 bucks, and worth every penny for the professional.

Yea that sounds nice I will take a look into that. For now I am am going to use the 5 gallon buckets for 3 to 4 gal per each watering/feeding. So I will start at 1.5/6 ml and disperse that evenly into 4 or 5 buckets for approx 20 to 25 gal to start off.

Thanks,

Any2

 

[HighWaterMark]

DocBud, once the chemical reactions are wrapped up (cooked) what's your thought on the following. Assuming I have the vertical space, and a 4'x8' tray, pretend i position a pair of bottomless Caledonian Air-Pot 80 Walls (20Gal) in several inches of soil and fill them up for the final transplant, which would be a pair each of carefully selected examples of an appropriate strain. The roots, endomycorrhizae stimulated, would have the opportunity to cohabitate and share nutrients. In a grow, ala your rules plus a "The Secrets of The West Coast Masters" ScrOG would reap a beautiful monster of unimaginable yield and connoisseur quality, or perhaps a time wasting disaster.

Thoughts?

 

[Doc Bud]

DocBud, once the chemical reactions are wrapped up (cooked) what's your thought on the following. Assuming I have the vertical space, and a 4'x8' tray, pretend i position a pair of bottomless Caledonian Air-Pot 80 Walls (20Gal) in several inches of soil and fill them up for the final transplant, which would be a pair each of carefully selected examples of an appropriate strain. The roots, endomycorrhizae stimulated, would have the opportunity to cohabitate and share nutrients. In a grow, ala your rules plus a "The Secrets of The West Coast Masters" ScrOG would reap a beautiful monster of unimaginable yield and connoisseur quality, or perhaps a time wasting disaster.

Thoughts?

Not quite following you.....

You said dirt....good.
You said scrog....also good.

So you're thinking of putting two plants in a 20 gallon planter?.....also good.

I don't see a downside. Looks good! Unless I'm missing something.

 

[cannasensei]

One strain having dietary needs different than that of its potmate resulting in a stunted plant or one you must cull and allow the roots to decay in the pot as the healthy one. If u have a lot of hygrozyme I see no issue. Otherwise its a real and common possibility, however if they are cuts from the same plant that shouldn't be an issue

 

[Doc Bud]

One strain having dietary needs different than that of its potmate resulting in a stunted plant or one you must cull and allow the roots to decay in the pot as the healthy one. If u have a lot of hygrozyme I see no issue. Otherwise its a real and common possibility, however if they are cuts from the same plant that shouldn't be an issue

He's using a kit....no dietary problems.

And please! No Hygrozyme with the kit! Roots digest in about a week when cooking the soil. They add humus.

 

[cannasensei]

Goodluck with that. Hope all goes well for ya mate.

 

[Graytail]

Refractometer technique and readings?

I just got my new toy in the mail, and I squished up a three inch fan blade and got a clear reading of ... 17. This plant should NOT be reading 17. It's from my 4 week old Super Lemon Haze in mineralized Pro-Mix with no cooking time, other than the 2 weeks it's been in the pot - no foliars, no drenches, no nutes, no nuttin'. It just showed its first flowers two days ago. It does look like a high brix plant, though, with very shiny leaves and strong vigor, which is why I selected it to read.

What are the possible explanations? For instance, I didn't want to waste enough leaves to get 2 entire "drops", so I only managed to smear "juice" on the glass, from one 3 inch fan blade. I made 2 earlier attempts with less leaf and got no reading at all - had to get enough to smear fluid across the glass, and then got the 17, clear as a bell. If there had been more fluid, would the reading have been diluted and shown fewer dissolved solids, and a more reasonable reading?

How tricky is the method of extraction?

[edit] Here's the plant:

 

[Doc Bud]

Refractometer technique and readings?

I just got my new toy in the mail, and I squished up a three inch fan blade and got a clear reading of ... 17. This plant should NOT be reading 17. It's from my 4 week old Super Lemon Haze in mineralized Pro-Mix with no cooking time, other than the 2 weeks it's been in the pot - no foliars, no drenches, no nutes, no nuttin'. It just showed its first flowers two days ago. It does look like a high brix plant, though, with very shiny leaves and strong vigor, which is why I selected it to read.

What are the possible explanations? For instance, I didn't want to waste enough leaves to get 2 entire "drops", so I only managed to smear "juice" on the glass, from one 3 inch fan blade. I made 2 earlier attempts with less leaf and got no reading at all - had to get enough to smear fluid across the glass, and then got the 17, clear as a bell. If there had been more fluid, would the reading have been diluted and shown fewer dissolved solids, and a more reasonable reading?

How tricky is the method of extraction?

Great question!

With any technique, be it picking a guitar or making a complicated sauce in the kitchen, results vary depending on the individual. This normal variation is due to technique....as is the variations we might see with testing a sample.

We're trying to test the INTRAcellular juices, as in the juice that is inside the cell wall. This dictates crushing the cell wall of millions of cells.

A stainless steel mortar and pestle will work. Throw a handful of leaves in there and mash them up for say 30 seconds. Gather the pulp in a piece of cheese cloth and squeeze 3 large drops or more of juice onto the prism. Grind the sample for the same time duration and with the same grinding technique and cadence each every time you take a reading and you can mitigate intraoperator error.

Intraoperator error means you make enough mistakes to where your readings vary one from another due to random, sloppy technique.

If you use the same make and model of refractometer, test your samples at the same time of day each and every time, and use the same technique as someone else, this can increase interoperator consistency. IE, you and I sample the same way, so our brix readings are somewhat equivalent.

Here's my method:

I take sample in the dark, often right before I foliar feed....never after. I do this because I take brix readings when I trim and prune.

Here's the important stuff:

Get a tool that will pulverize the cell wall and get real juice that drips from the leaves. Make sure that tool is clean.

Calibrate the refractometer in the room you'll be doing the pruning, crushing, testing in AFTER it has assumed room temperature. Store the tool in the room....no problem.

I take leave, petiole and sometimes young flower samples. Work 4 or 5 leaves with petioles into a ball, and place them in the "crusher," which yields a few drops of whitish green, frothy juice, which I drip onto the prism....plop, plop.

Snap the lid shut and take a reading. I get a clear, concise line on my meter.

In veg, a reading of 12 is fantastic! 10 is fine. Brix levels don't really rise until the plant starts to respirate during bloom. Anything over 12 is great! 14 or 15 is superb! Some strains can go even higher....my highest was 18, but I did have some plants steady at 17 for a while.

It's good to ritualize your reading practice. Take them at the same time, the same way, each and every time. That way, in YOUR garden you'll know if 17 means no bugs....shoot for 17 or higher. In the same way, your technique might give consistently lower readings....but consistent. You might find that brix of 10 keeps the bugs and mold away, and that you can't seem to get them over 12, no matter how hard you try.

It all comes down to technique and the accuracy of the instrument.

I had years in the lab, nearly blowing stuff up and doing some pretty cool things. This was back in the days when bunsen burners were gas fired and benzene was used all the time as a solvent....so I have lots of hands on training in lab equipment and sampling techniques in general.

Keep everything clean. Make sure you can pulverize the sample. Squeeze juice, not pulp, out of the sample using cheese cloth or a piece of screen.....do everything the same way each and every time.

Following the above, at the very least, you'll get accurate, consistent measurement for YOUR garden using YOUR tools and technique, and with that data you'll be able to improve your growing skills.

Poor technique can result in artificially high or low readings.

 

[HighWaterMark]

cannasensei, thanks for taking the time to reply. Using DocBud's kit (which I plan to do), I'll be employing granular Root Zone as my Vesicular Arbuscular Mycorrhizal (VAM) adjunct. But your point is well taken. As I think about the botany, I come up with an inverse potential problem. There appears to be a small risk that if I had to cull one, in this setup I might have to cull both as there is true physical communication between the root structures of the two plants. It would be dependent on the nature of the problem: is it an excess or deficiency (tough to imagine) or worse, an infection.

DocBud, first, did I get the correct product from your kit in the hyperlink above? Second, you definitely nailed my primary point in which I'm looking for danger spots. cannasensei ID'd one. But you are definitely imagining what I wish to accomplish. After a bit more research I'm inclined to roll the dice.

Take Care.

 

[Doc Bud]

cannasensei, thanks for taking the time to reply. Using DocBud's kit (which I plan to do), I'll be employing granular Root Zone as my Vesicular Arbuscular Mycorrhizal (VAM) adjunct. But your point is well taken. As I think about the botany, I come up with an inverse potential problem. There appears to be a small risk that if I had to cull one, in this setup I might have to cull both as there is true physical communication between the root structures of the two plants. It would be dependent on the nature of the problem: is it an excess or deficiency (tough to imagine) or worse, an infection.

DocBud, first, did I get the correct product from your kit in the hyperlink above? Second, you definitely nailed my primary point in which I'm looking for danger spots. cannasensei ID'd one. But you are definitely imagining what I wish to accomplish. After a bit more research I'm inclined to roll the dice.

Take Care.

Ha! No, that's not the product in the kit! The product in the kit is proprietary, not packaged like that at all. It's designed to go with the soil and amendments. While that looks like a nice product, it's not what we have in the kit at all!

I may have to do something about the name.....

When you think plants and roots, just think of a raised garden bed, or row crops.....roots communicate all the time. If you have to cull a plant, just cut it.....the roots will be digested and increase humus in the soil.

 

[HighWaterMark]

Dang, I'm a nitwit. Somewhere in my L frontal-lobe floats the product/phrase,

Root Zone

How or why it got there - who knows? 'should have known your kit would contain most if not all proprietary items.

Thanks for straightening me out.

 

[Graytail]

Refractometer technique and readings?

I just got my new toy in the mail, and I squished up a three inch fan blade and got a clear reading of ... 17. This plant should NOT be reading 17.

Yeah, and for good reason! I ... um ... neglected to CALIBRATE my refractometer. Oops.

But ... when I did finally did get some RO water and test it, it was right on the money - just a fraction above zero. So, here are the results of further tests with a calibrated refractomter.

2 days ago, I took one blade of a five blade fan from my Super Lemon Haze. Today I plucked the remaining fan leaf with 4 blades and rolled it up into a ball and used a vicegrips to crush it repeatedly between a couple lil squares of metal. This time there was enough to get 2 definite "drops" of greenish juice and I got a clear reading of ... drumroll ... 12! This made me suspicious. It still seems too high. So I got a 3 blade fan from my Jamaican Dream, cleaned everything up with RO water, and tested that - got a reading of ... 12. Ok, so further suspicion ensued. I cleaned everyuthing up again and took the wad of crushed leaf from the earlier SLH test and squished it again. Got two more good drops and a reading of 14. Hmmm. Cleaned everything up again and retested the wad from the Jamaican Dream - 11. One more cleanup and I decided to test the stem of the fan from the SLH - 6.

Both of these plants have a high brix look to them - very shiny and healthy. In fact, the Jamaican Dream just went through a dramatic transition. Ever since I transplanted her from her Solo cup into a 3 quart pot to stall her until I could get cuttings, she's had a mounded limp look. Yesterday morning, she had changed overnight! Suddenly, all her fans were lifted up back to normal, her upper leaves were spiking up to the light, and the big fans were all shiny. This is a little more than 2 weeks since I transplanted her into 3 quarts, and then 6 gallons, of uncooked mineralized soil. Both the Jamaican and the SLH look great!

The one in the middle is the Jamaican Dream from 5 days ago - SLH to the right, Kerala x Skunk#1 to the left. The middle row are three Nirvana NL autos, in front are Hawaiian Snow to the left and another Kerala to the right.

Here's the Jamaican today

And this is the SLH today

 

[Doc Bud]

Yeah, and for good reason! I ... um ... neglected to CALIBRATE my refractometer. Oops.

But ... when I did finally did get some RO water and test it, it was right on the money - just a fraction above zero. So, here are the results of further tests with a calibrated refractomter.

2 days ago, I took one blade of a five blade fan from my Super Lemon Haze. Today I plucked the remaining fan leaf with 4 blades and rolled it up into a ball and used a vicegrips to crush it repeatedly between a couple lil squares of metal. This time there was enough to get 2 definite "drops" of greenish juice and I got a clear reading of ... drumroll ... 12! This made me suspicious. It still seems too high. So I got a 3 blade fan from my Jamaican Dream, cleaned everything up with RO water, and tested that - got a reading of ... 12. Ok, so further suspicion ensued. I cleaned everyuthing up again and took the wad of crushed leaf from the earlier SLH test and squished it again. Got two more good drops and a reading of 14. Hmmm. Cleaned everything up again and retested the wad from the Jamaican Dream - 11. One more cleanup and I decided to test the stem of the fan from the SLH - 6.

Both of these plants have a high brix look to them - very shiny and healthy. In fact, the Jamaican Dream just went through a dramatic transition. Ever since I transplanted her from her Solo cup into a 3 quart pot to stall her until I could get cuttings, she's had a mounded limp look. Yesterday morning, she had changed overnight! Suddenly, all her fans were lifted up back to normal, her upper leaves were spiking up to the light, and the big fans were all shiny. This is a little more than 2 weeks since I transplanted her into 6 gallons of uncooked mineralized soil. Both the Jamaican and the SLH look great!

The one in the middle is the Jamaican Dream from 5 days ago - SLH to the right, Kerala x Skunk#1 to the left. The middle row are three Nirvana NL autos, in front are Hawaiian Snow to the left and another Kerala to the right.

Here's the Jamaican today

And this is the SLH today

I think your readings are right on the money, judging by the pictures. Nicely done!

As you can see, mineralized soil is a big F'n deal, when it comes to growing healthy plants! I'm gonna have to grow that again....

What's your soil mix? It's doing very well!

I test leaf AND petiole, not just leaf. Grape farmers up here test petioles only. The readings are lower, but they claim greater accuracy.

 

[Graytail]

The base soil is Pro-Mix, not HP or BX or anything - just Pro-Mix - from Menard's, a bigbox chain like Lowe's and THD. I contacted Premier and learned that it's exactly the same as Pro-Mix HP but with less perlite, 12% v 27%, and no mycos - otherwise the same. I added your 6-5-3 mix along with the azomite and worm poop, perlite, etc. - as close as I could come to your second best practices recommendation from your Starwberry Cough thread. Unfortunately, I didn't have time to cook it, so the SLH, Hawaiian and Kerala went right into uncooked soil with mycos. That was 18 days ago. The Jamaican first went from FFOF in a Solo cup to uncooked in a 3 quart (18days ago), and then into 6 gallons 5 days ago. That 6 gallons had a chance to cook outside in a tote for 2 weeks first. The Jamaican also got mycos twice - once into the 3 quart, and again into the 6 gallon.

I suspect the mycos have discovered the roots and have formed large enough colonies to start breaking down the minerals. I was pretty liberal with the granulated mycos I bought, when they went into the 6 gallon pots. In a couple days, I'll test the others. They just don't have the shine yet. Oh, and the NL autos are in FFOF with OC+. I like that stuff - nuttin but water the whole time.

But I want live soil! The whole idea is jus' so cool!

A side question: Would it be accurate to say that the whole idea is to create a well-balanced microculture in the soil and then do all the "feeding" through foliars? I've made sure not to disturb my mineralized soil balance at all. All supplimented nutrition will come from the foliars (along with certain hormonal triggers), right?

 

[Doc Bud]

The base soil is Pro-Mix, not HP or BX or anything - just Pro-Mix - from Menard's, a bigbox chain like Lowe's and THD. I contacted Premier and learned that it's exactly the same as Pro-Mix HP but with less perlite, 12% v 27%, and no mycos - otherwise the same. I added your 6-5-3 mix along with the azomite and worm poop, perlite, etc. - as close as I could come to your second best practices recommendation from your Starwberry Cough thread. Unfortunately, I didn't have time to cook it, so the SLH, Hawaiian and Kerala went right into uncooked soil with mycos. That was 18 days ago. The Jamaican first went from FFOF in a Solo cup to uncooked in a 3 quart (18days ago), and then into 6 gallons 5 days ago. That 6 gallons had a chance to cook outside in a tote for 2 weeks first. The Jamaican also got mycos twice - once into the 3 quart, and again into the 6 gallon.

I suspect the mycos have discovered the roots and have formed large enough colonies to start breaking down the minerals. I was pretty liberal with the granulated mycos I bought, when they went into the 6 gallon pots. In a couple days, I'll test the others. They just don't have the shine yet. Oh, and the NL autos are in FFOF with OC+. I like that stuff - nuttin but water the whole time.

But I want live soil! The whole idea is jus' so cool!

A side question: Would it be accurate to say that the whole idea is to create a well-balanced microculture in the soil and then do all the "feeding" through foliars? I've made sure not to disturb my mineralized soil balance at all. All supplimented nutrition will come from the foliars (along with certain hormonal triggers), right?

Your soil mix sounds great!

RE feeding:

There are four "bases" or foundations, for High Brix.

1.)mineralized soil.
2.)Trace minerals in proper ratio and quantity
3.)Soil biology
4.)Soil energy.

Plants will not grow without energy! This is supplied in several ways, but the main method is to add "fertilizer" or nutrients to feed water. I highly recommend fishy ferts for this purpose! Any organic fertilizer will do, as will some inorganic ones, but the cold processed hydrolysates are the best.

The foliar feeding does feed the plant, no doubt about it. But its main purpose is the feed the soil. If the soil is living and happy, the plants just grow themselves.

You're off to a GREAT start. Stay the course!

 

[Doc Bud]

BTW, I'll be posting new instructions here in the very near future.