Quest for mold-resistant strains, Hawaii outdoor greenhouse grow

[Danishoes21]

very good info. on salicylic acid , question @danishoes21 , do u spray the leaves or water the plant with the horse tail tea & at what ratio ?

I only foliar spray the plants, I haven’t watered with Willow.
I have on the other hand watered roots with horsetail and comfrey and nettle tea under the idea that these 3 teas aren’t acidic enough to damage roots.

Caution; I have wiped out my plants before with other tea not meant to go for roots. So a pH tester can help out define the threshold of acidic ph.

The ratio, that’s where I don’t have measurements, I would start with 100ml of tea per litre of water. Test out see if the plant reacts at all to it;
good reaction? pump up the dose to a full cup per gallon.

The reason I didn’t water roots with Willow tea (salicylic acid) is because I wanted to focus on the leaf damage rather than the roots or plant. My hypothesis is that the PM, mold and rot spores are airborne and stick to the plant leaf matter at all times, when the conditions are met (water and heat) the fungi is born; in order to stop that I spray the Salicylic Acid solution with a wetting agent ( Azimuth would suggest Aloe I would suggest Xhantam gum), the wetting agent help to stick the molecules to the leaf surface resulting a protective shield against spores.

I don’t use wetting agent when I water roots.

Hope this helps.

 

[Danishoes21]

I have yet to use horsetail tea, but it can be added to the soil to give the plants silica, which has a long list of benefits for growth and yield. It makes stronger plants by strengthening cell walls, aids photosynthesis, and also helps protect against bugs and disease. I have been adding silica to my custom soil mix, in the form of fine powdered quartz, which is 100% crystalline silica (aka silicon dioxide). Soil microbes convert silica to silicic acid, which is then absorbed by the plant. The silica in horsetail tea is more bioavailble, because it's already in the silicic acid form.

Horsetail tea can also be used as a foliar spray, because it's known to be anti-fungal.

We've also been talking about willow (leaf or bark) tea as a foliar spray, because it contains salicylic acid, which is also anti-fungal. Actually, willow leaf and bark contains salicin and/or salicylate. In the human body, and I think in plants as well, these get converted to salicylic acid. Naturally-derived salicylic acid is used for pain relief, and is similar to aspirin in chemical composition.

Now here's the kicker! ... I just found out that horsetail is also high in salicylate, in the form of methyl salicylate. So this is probably exactly why horsetail is used as an anti-fungal. BUT, it also has the great added benefit of being very high in silica.

Wow... horsetail is like THE BEST thing to feed cannabis, in the soil and foliar. Now I definitely want to grow it!

Now take another look at the Harrell's article, with horsetail tea in mind...

Harrells | Blog Post | Experience the Benefits of Salicylic Acid in Your Crops

What's VERY interesting, is that I'm seeing a crossover here, in the benefits attributed to silicic acid and the benefits attributed to salicylic acid. WFT?! The names of these two molecules are almost identical!

Orthosalicic acid: H4O4Si

Salicylic acid: C7H6O3

And I've just gotta throw this in here, too... because I like tetrahedrons...

This is the orthosilicate anion molecule, which is the conjugate base of orthosalicic acid...

"The orthosilicate ion or group has tetrahedral shape, with one silicon atom surrounded by four oxygen atoms."

Welcome to the horsetail lovers club my friend. It’s indeed a remarkable one.

Sink your teeth into stinging nettle and comfrey as well. If you use all 3 of these master weeds your plant will love it. All natural elements that grow unlimited amounts almost every where in the world. And good for human consumption.

Ohh I Love tetrahedrons too, big big fan on sacred geometry here.

 

[Melville Hobbes]

The ratio, that’s where I don’t have measurements, I would start with 100ml of tea per litre of water. Test out see if the plant reacts at all to it;
good reaction? pump up the dose to a full cup per gallon.

Do you mean a full cup (250ml) per litre?
Or to start with 100ml per gallon?

 

[Danishoes21]

Do you mean a full cup (250ml) per litre?
Or to start with 100ml per gallon?

I would start small first, like make a 10% concentration solution let’s say 100ml of tea per 1 ltr of water, and from there up the dose.
If you have larger applications the formula can be adjusted.

What I don’t have in numbers is how much bio material I used to make the tea. I will be weighing this time around.

It is safe to say at the end of last year I wasn’t even diluting the solution before foliar spray I was doing a 1 ltr batch of Willow tea at a time and spraying it directly on the phenos. I didn’t see any negative effects.

 

[Melville Hobbes]

I would start small first, like make a 10% concentration solution let’s say 100ml of tea per 1 ltr of water, and from there up the dose.
If you have larger applications the formula can be adjusted.

What I don’t have in numbers is how much bio material I used to make the tea. I will be weighing this time around.

It is safe to say at the end of last year I wasn’t even diluting the solution before foliar spray I was doing a 1 ltr batch of Willow tea at a time and spraying it directly on the phenos. I didn’t see any negative effects.

Okay. One cup per gallon is a lower concentration than 100ml per litre, so I just wanted to make sure.

 

[Danishoes21]

Okay. One cup per gallon is a lower concentration than 100ml per litre, so I just wanted to make sure.

Yeah I realized that, sorry for the miscalculation. That’s why I was honest in saying so far I have just eyeball my mixes this time around I want to be more precise and measure things.
10:1 seems like a good start.

Hope this helps.

 

[ThirdUncle]

hey @cbdhemp808 & @danishoes21 thanks alot for taking the time & effort replying my question with such an informative & in depth report , ill give it a go , willows & horsetail grow in my area ,though the horsetail is less abundant, take care & peace to all

 

[Azimuth]

willows & horsetail grow in my area ,though the horsetail is less abundant, take care & peace to all

Horestail is an early spring plant, at least near me. So you might have more luck finding it if you look around wet areas before summer kicks onto gear.

Azimuth would suggest Aloe I would suggest Xhantam gum), the wetting agent help to stick the molecules to the leaf surface resulting a protective shield against spores.

Yucca works as well.

 

[cbdhemp808]

Yucca works as well.

How about Bronner's soap? If I had aloe growing I would totally use that. I need to plant some.

The reason I didn’t water roots with Willow tea (salicylic acid) is because I wanted to focus on the leaf damage rather than the roots or plant. My hypothesis is that the PM, mold and rot spores are airborne and stick to the plant leaf matter at all times, when the conditions are met (water and heat) the fungi is born; in order to stop that I spray the Salicylic Acid solution with a wetting agent ( Azimuth would suggest Aloe I would suggest Xhantam gum), the wetting agent help to stick the molecules to the leaf surface resulting a protective shield against spores.

The way I understand it is that the salicylates in the tea will enter the plant and be converted to salicylic acid, which is the plant hormone associated with the salicylic acid pathway. This pathway is what activates the biochemical response to produce toxins that will fight against some types of fungi and fungi-like organisms, as well as bacteria and viruses. My point is that the salicylic acid is absorbed into the plant and becomes systemic. Granted, if the leaves are where the trouble is, a foliar application would seem to act more quickly.

Another interesting thing... it's the salicylic acid pathway that's involved in fighting organisms that are parasitic on live plant cells (such as the downy mildew), while it's the jasmonic acid pathway/route that's involved in fighting fungi that live on dead material, for example botrytis (the bud rot fungus). [ source ]

So, it's easy to believe that some cannabis strains and phenos are genetically predisposed to have better-performing "defense routes" – i.e. salicylic acid pathway and/or jasmonic acid pathway/route.

My thesis in this quest has been that fungal resistance is related to specific terpene profiles and high resin production. This may be true, but there are other mechanism at play, as is seen with the "defence routes", which factor into something like an immune system response.

I see 6 possible methods to fight the fungi and mold/mildew...

1. use genetics which are predisposed to high natural resistance
2. change environmental factors (e.g. limit spores reaching the plant, increase air flow, decrease humidity, etc.)
3. strengthen the plant's "immune system" by giving salicylic acid and silicic acid (and possibly jasmonic acid)
4. use a foliar spray that kills pathogenic organisms or otherwise makes the leaf surfaces or buds inhospitable to pathogenic organisms (e.g. change pH, use a natural fungicide)
5. use a foliar spray to introduce beneficial organisms to the leaf surface (e.g. bacteria) that will kill or out-compete pathogenic organisms
6. introduce a beneficial fungus or bacteria to the soil (e.g. the fungus, trichoderma, which is symbiotic with the roots and produces anti-fungal toxins which become systemic in the plant)

I'm favoring the first 3 methods, and #6. (Here's a couple sources for trichoderma: Plant Revolution's Great White mycorrhizae formula, and Down to Earth's Soluble Root Zone product.)

The purpose of this "Quest for mold-resistant strains" is to find naturally resistant strains and phenos. And now my focus is changing from trying to zap organisms externally, to enhancing the immune system of the plant. I'm viewing salicylic acid and silicic acid as acting internally to enhance pathogen resistance, rather than as anti-fungal agents that zap organisms on the leaf surfaces. But perhaps both things are going on at the same time – I'm not yet clear on this.

 

[Azimuth]

How about Bronner's soap? If I had aloe growing I would totally use that. I need to plant some.

Yep, that'll work too. They have different scents available which are also said to have pest deterrent properties to them as well.

 

[cbdhemp808]

Yep, that'll work too. They have different scents available which are also said to have pest deterrent properties to them as well.

I always use Bronner's peppermint for my sprays.

 

[cbdhemp808]

Here's some pics from today in the flower house...

Blue Widow, 4 weeks in flower. Very slow to develop and flowers so far have barely any fragrance. Little to no trichome development yet. Leaves are resistant to fungus and downy mildew.

HI-BISCUS, 4 weeks in flower.

HI-BISCUS trichomes... lots of milky and some amber. No sign of bud rot.

Blueberry, 4 weeks in flower. Some very minor signs of bud rot and some dead bracts. Keeping a close eye now as this may be the start of the harvest window. Trichomes are not ready yet.

Blueberry trichomes.

Blueberry trichomes close-up... lots of clear, some milky, and very little amber.

Sweet Critical CBD, 4 weeks in flower.

Sweet Critical CBD trichome close-up. Maybe about 50/50 clear and milky, with some amber.

Seedsman 30:1 CBD (sativa), 4 weeks in flower. Slow to develop, but flowers have a sweet, fruity fragrance, and trichomes are coming along.

 

[cbdhemp808]

I now have some white willow bark powder. Origin China. Wildcrafted.

Tea time!

 

[Danishoes21]

How about Bronner's soap? If I had aloe growing I would totally use that. I need to plant some.


The way I understand it is that the salicylates in the tea will enter the plant and be converted to salicylic acid, which is the plant hormone associated with the salicylic acid pathway. This pathway is what activates the biochemical response to produce toxins that will fight against some types of fungi and fungi-like organisms, as well as bacteria and viruses. My point is that the salicylic acid is absorbed into the plant and becomes systemic. Granted, if the leaves are where the trouble is, a foliar application would seem to act more quickly.

Another interesting thing... it's the salicylic acid pathway that's involved in fighting organisms that are parasitic on live plant cells (such as the downy mildew), while it's the jasmonic acid pathway/route that's involved in fighting fungi that live on dead material, for example botrytis (the bud rot fungus). [ source ]

So, it's easy to believe that some cannabis strains and phenos are genetically predisposed to have better-performing "defense routes" – i.e. salicylic acid pathway and/or jasmonic acid pathway/route.

My thesis in this quest has been that fungal resistance is related to specific terpene profiles and high resin production. This may be true, but there are other mechanism at play, as is seen with the "defence routes", which factor into something like an immune system response.

I see 6 possible methods to fight the fungi and mold/mildew...

1. use genetics which are predisposed to high natural resistance
2. change environmental factors (e.g. limit spores reaching the plant, increase air flow, decrease humidity, etc.)
3. strengthen the plant's "immune system" by giving salicylic acid and silicic acid (and possibly jasmonic acid)
4. use a foliar spray that kills pathogenic organisms or otherwise makes the leaf surfaces or buds inhospitable to pathogenic organisms (e.g. change pH, use a natural fungicide)
5. use a foliar spray to introduce beneficial organisms to the leaf surface (e.g. bacteria) that will kill or out-compete pathogenic organisms
6. introduce a beneficial fungus or bacteria to the soil (e.g. the fungus, trichoderma, which is symbiotic with the roots and produces anti-fungal toxins which become systemic in the plant)

I'm favoring the first 3 methods, and #6. (Here's a couple sources for trichoderma: Plant Revolution's Great White mycorrhizae formula, and Down to Earth's Soluble Root Zone product.)

The purpose of this "Quest for mold-resistant strains" is to find naturally resistant strains and phenos. And now my focus is changing from trying to zap organisms externally, to enhancing the immune system of the plant. I'm viewing salicylic acid and silicic acid as acting internally to enhance pathogen resistance, rather than as anti-fungal agents that zap organisms on the leaf surfaces. But perhaps both things are going on at the same time – I'm not yet clear on this.

Well I’m glad you explore this matter and consider all options; I started last year and well it’s not easy, testing multiple things (less face it not such a controlled scientific method on my end) wasn’t easy and takes time. I ventured into Salicylic acid (Willow specifically) not knowing anything about it. Today the conversation is whether to water roots and/or leaf or both; that’s lots of progress.

Thanks for sharing all your findings and looking forward to see you test some of these ideas.

I also believe that using Salicylic acid can be done at all moment, as a preventive treatment and also as a corrective one. This year I will be applying the foliar teas all thru Veg and early flower. And I will water roots to see how it goes.

On the genetic point of view, your first point says use genetic that is resistant; I think any genetic has potential to be resistant, we can shape the phenotype and genotype of any plant it just takes time and repetition.
That takes me to your second point; change environmental factors to achieve desired results. I grow outdoors and it’s hard to control the environment but you can make drastic changes to shape the phenos and that’s why having them go thru biotic and abiotic stress is the way to find how to tweak them into becoming more pest resistant or flower faster or turn purple or fox tail.

I have done things like putting a beauty of plant 2 ft away from an infested PM kale plant. I have also used PM infested plantain major and made tea out of it to later foliar spray my phenos. I wanted to infect a plant with PM and then fight it with hopes of getting the offspring to have that information stored in the genetic code.

Also understanding the life cycle of fungal spores helps, I love mushrooms as much I love cannabis so I know just enough about spores and how they thrive, best way to fight fungi is to know it.

 

[cbdhemp808]

It just struck me that the HI-BISCUS, Blueberry, and Sweet Critical CBD flowers are actually getting fairly close to harvest, and it's only been 4 weeks! I've definitely seen my plants ready to harvest in 5 weeks, in the past.

 

[cbdhemp808]

This is a really weird plant. I've never seen a plant this far into flower with so few trichomes. Looks absolutely nothing like the photos of Blue Widow I've seen online. Seed was from Canuk. Anyone know where I can get the original Dinafem BW? They do not ship to the U.S.

It's supposed to look like this. Unless something miraculous happens soon, I don't think it's gonna get there.

 

[InTheShed]

Beautiful trich-laden flowers cbdhemp!

And I've got nothing on organic sprays, but I wanted to second what Azi said about adding yucca extract to the list of excellent surfactants!

 

[Melville Hobbes]

This is a really weird plant. I've never seen a plant this far into flower with so few trichomes. Looks absolutely nothing like the photos of Blue Widow I've seen online. Seed was from Canuk. Anyone know where I can get the original Dinafem BW? They do not ship to the U.S.

It's supposed to look like this. Unless something miraculous happens soon, I don't think it's gonna get there.

IIRC, Dinafem got caught for something.
You can get their seeds from other seedbanks like Herbies, but a lot of them are out of stock.

 

[Danishoes21]

Here's some pics from today in the flower house...

Blue Widow, 4 weeks in flower. Very slow to develop and flowers so far have barely any fragrance. Little to no trichome development yet. Leaves are resistant to fungus and downy mildew.

HI-BISCUS, 4 weeks in flower.

HI-BISCUS trichomes... lots of milky and some amber. No sign of bud rot.

Blueberry, 4 weeks in flower. Some very minor signs of bud rot and some dead bracts. Keeping a close eye now as this may be the start of the harvest window. Trichomes are not ready yet.

Blueberry trichomes.

Blueberry trichomes close-up... lots of clear, some milky, and very little amber.

Sweet Critical CBD, 4 weeks in flower.

Sweet Critical CBD trichome close-up. Maybe about 50/50 clear and milky, with some amber.

Seedsman 30:1 CBD (sativa), 4 weeks in flower. Slow to develop, but flowers have a sweet, fruity fragrance, and trichomes are coming along.

Hi cbd,

Lovely plant you got there and 30:1 CBD is exactly what I’m looking for my wife as she can’t take THC, it is possible you share the site where I can get one? That would be much appreciated.


On another note I wanted to share a picture of the one jar I have from last season still viable, it’s a mix of all herbs and weeds; sage, horsetail, rosemary, thyme, dandelion, willow, comfrey, nettle, and so on…

This I would probably dilute, it doesn’t smell bad at all despite being at least 6 months old. You will notice Willow tea actually has a fragrance.

 

[cbdhemp808]

Beautiful trich-laden flowers cbdhemp!

And I've got nothing on organic sprays, but I wanted to second what Azi said about adding yucca extract to the list of excellent surfactants!

Thank you! I probably won't use yucca. But I will grow some aloe... it grows well here.