- Thread starter
- #481
cbdhemp808
Well-Known Member
just finished the final version of my post above ... whew!
Quest for mold-resistant strains, Hawaii outdoor greenhouse grow
- Thread starter cbdhemp808
- Start date
- Thread starter
- #482
cbdhemp808
Well-Known Member
In this version of the chart, I have sorted by (terpinolene + pinene) x the total terpene percent, and assigned a score. I have highlighted in orange the strains that have close to or higher the mg/g of terpinolene as HI-BISCUS (7.72), combined with the most percent pinene. I have highlighted in blue the ones that have high terpinolene, but lowish pinene.
Jack Herer (sativa dom.).. terpinolene 53% (13.5 mg/g), pinene 09%, Tot. 2.57%, Score: 159
XJ-13 (50/50)............. terpinolene 49% (11.6 mg/g), pinene 10%, Tot. 2.39%, Score: 141
HI-BISCUS (50/50)......... terpinolene 33% (7.72 mg/g), pinene 25%, Tot. 2.34%, Score: 136
Dutch Treat (indica dom.). terpinolene 34% (11.2 mg/g), pinene 06%, Tot. 3.29%, Score: 132
Durban Poison (sativa).... terpinolene 36% (9.47 mg/g), pinene 11%, Tot. 2.63%, Score: 124
LSD (indica dominant)..... terpinolene 46% (9.43 mg/g), pinene 11%, Tot. 2.05%, Score: 117
MAC (50/50)............... terpinolene 41% (9.35 mg/g), pinene 06%, Tot. 2.28%, Score: 107
Chemdawg D (sativa)....... terpinolene 41% (9.96 mg/g), pinene 02%, Tot. 2.43%, Score: 104
Lemon Skunk (sativa dom.). terpinolene 42% (7.30 mg/g), pinene 14%, Tot. 1.74%, Score: 97
Clementine (sativa dom.).. terpinolene 44% (7.70 mg/g), pinene 11%, Tot. 1.75%, Score: 96
Ghost Train Haze (sativa). terpinolene 38% (6.80 mg/g), pinene 10%, Tot. 1.80%, Score: 86
Chernobyl (sativa dom.)... terpinolene 39% (5.70 mg/g), pinene 12%, Tot. 1.47%, Score: 75
Mac N Cheese (indica dom.) terpinolene 22% (3.92 mg/g), pinene 19%, Tot. 1.78%, Score: 73
Grapefruit Kush (indica).. terpinolene 37% (5.00 mg/g), pinene 10%, Tot. 1.36%, Score: 64
Super Lemon Haze (sativa). terpinolene 27% (4.20 mg/g), pinene 12%, Tot. 1.53%, Score: 60
Trainwreck (sativa dom.).. terpinolene 40% (4.20 mg/g), pinene 15%, Tot. 1.06%, Score: 58
Lemon Diesel (indica dom.) terpinolene 25% (3.80 mg/g), pinene 10%, Tot. 1.50%, Score: 40
Zkittlez (indica dom.).... terpinolene 23% (2.70 mg/g), pinene 08%, Tot. 1.18%, Score: 37
Jack Herer (sativa dom.).. terpinolene 53% (13.5 mg/g), pinene 09%, Tot. 2.57%, Score: 159
XJ-13 (50/50)............. terpinolene 49% (11.6 mg/g), pinene 10%, Tot. 2.39%, Score: 141
HI-BISCUS (50/50)......... terpinolene 33% (7.72 mg/g), pinene 25%, Tot. 2.34%, Score: 136
Dutch Treat (indica dom.). terpinolene 34% (11.2 mg/g), pinene 06%, Tot. 3.29%, Score: 132
Durban Poison (sativa).... terpinolene 36% (9.47 mg/g), pinene 11%, Tot. 2.63%, Score: 124
LSD (indica dominant)..... terpinolene 46% (9.43 mg/g), pinene 11%, Tot. 2.05%, Score: 117
MAC (50/50)............... terpinolene 41% (9.35 mg/g), pinene 06%, Tot. 2.28%, Score: 107
Chemdawg D (sativa)....... terpinolene 41% (9.96 mg/g), pinene 02%, Tot. 2.43%, Score: 104
Lemon Skunk (sativa dom.). terpinolene 42% (7.30 mg/g), pinene 14%, Tot. 1.74%, Score: 97
Clementine (sativa dom.).. terpinolene 44% (7.70 mg/g), pinene 11%, Tot. 1.75%, Score: 96
Ghost Train Haze (sativa). terpinolene 38% (6.80 mg/g), pinene 10%, Tot. 1.80%, Score: 86
Chernobyl (sativa dom.)... terpinolene 39% (5.70 mg/g), pinene 12%, Tot. 1.47%, Score: 75
Mac N Cheese (indica dom.) terpinolene 22% (3.92 mg/g), pinene 19%, Tot. 1.78%, Score: 73
Grapefruit Kush (indica).. terpinolene 37% (5.00 mg/g), pinene 10%, Tot. 1.36%, Score: 64
Super Lemon Haze (sativa). terpinolene 27% (4.20 mg/g), pinene 12%, Tot. 1.53%, Score: 60
Trainwreck (sativa dom.).. terpinolene 40% (4.20 mg/g), pinene 15%, Tot. 1.06%, Score: 58
Lemon Diesel (indica dom.) terpinolene 25% (3.80 mg/g), pinene 10%, Tot. 1.50%, Score: 40
Zkittlez (indica dom.).... terpinolene 23% (2.70 mg/g), pinene 08%, Tot. 1.18%, Score: 37
- Thread starter
- #483
cbdhemp808
Well-Known Member
Thanks! I just read Sensi's article on Jack Herer, talking about phenos A, B, C, D. Very interesting... A, C, D have sativa traits and B has indica traits. I read that B has the highest yield, although D produces "truly spectacular amounts of resin".You should be able to find some on that list that you like.I know that I like a bunch of them.
I've only grown Jack Herer and Durban. Both were from Sensi. Neither had fungus problems.
It's funny that the Jack Herer I grew was one of those times that I tried growing more than one strain in the tray at a time. The other strain was OG Kush. It was before I had any control over the RH and relied on exhaust and fans.
I got bud rot on the OG Kush (huge buds) and no rot on the Jack Herer in the same tray. The buds weren't as big on the Jack though.
My Jack Herer was pheno C, the haze dominant pheno.
I found 4 terp profiles for Jack Herer:
2.57% total terps, terpinolene dominant 1.53%
1.75% total terps, pinene dominant 0.61%
1.64% total terps, myrcene dominant 0.47%
1.30% total terps, myrcene dominant 0.26%
Hard to say, but these 4 profiles could indicate 3 different phenos. I'll guess the terpinolene dominant one is probably pheno D – that's the one in my chart. However, the Sensi article also says pheno A is the most potent. Another website says that pheno C ("Haze Pheno") is the most potent. In any case, A, D, and C are all sativa leaning.
UPDATE: Of the 4 terp profiles above, the terpinolene dominant pheno has total cannabinoids 29%, while the others are around 20-21%.
- Thread starter
- #484
cbdhemp808
Well-Known Member
From LabEffects.com:
There appears to be plenty of evidence of the anti-fungal effects of terpinolene (delta-terpinene), other terpinenes, and pinene. Terpinolene and gamma-terpinene appear to be the main terpinolenes found in cannabis in significant amounts. Both alpha-pinene and beta-pinene are common in cannabis (I combined them in my above charts and labeled simply as pinene).
While there are other anti-fungal terpenes, including myrcene and limonene, I'm guessing that terpinolene and pinene are particularly good at preventing the growth of botrytis bud rot (Botrytis cinerea). In terms of the simple mechanics of this in the growing bud, the off-gassing of terpenes from the trichomes begins in the morning and continues all day. During the night, terpenes begin to regenerate in the trichomes. I'm guessing the main driver in this process is ambient temperature – heat causes terpenes to be emitted, while the cool of the night does the opposite. Terpenes are very volatile, meaning they evaporate into the air very easily.
Botrytis spores (conidia) are very small – on average 12 microns long (0.012mm). The tiny spores land on bud surfaces under the right conditions of warmth and humidity, and send root-like structures into the plant tissue. I see the effects of the terpenes as growth inhibitors of the fungal structures. In the environment of the bud surface, in a forest of terpene-emitting trichomes, the spores simply cannot grow. I don't know the exact mechanism here, but it could be terpene molecules landing on the spore surfaces, or it could be spores landing on terpene-infused resin on the plant surfaces. It could be that the penetration of the plant tissues (trichomes) by the spore root-like structures causes terpene-infused resin to ooze out. Maybe the situation is a combination of all these mechanism. At any rate, terpene molecules shut down the ability of spores to germinate and grow.
It's easy to imagine that equatorial landrace sativas evolved to produce more terpinolene and pinene, since botrytis likes warm, wet environments. Flowers that rot are flowers that don't produce seeds. I think this is why terpinolene is most often associated with sativas. From my charts above, we see that terpinolene has been bred-into indicas and 50/50 hybrids as well. I have a feeling that terpinolene (i.e. delta-terpinene) or gamma-terpinene appear together with alpha-pinene and beta-pinene in cannabis, because of the biochemical processes in cannabis that generate these molecules. My research so far seems to confirm this.
"Terpinolene is one of the many terpenes in the terpinene and pinene family. While they all share the same molecular formula, weight, and construction, the placement of the double carbon bond differentiates them. This defines their unique synergistic qualities when combined with CBD products for therapeutic benefits.
Terpinolene, like its cousin a-pinene, is commonly found in many household products... Terpinolene’s scent is more complex than many more well-known terpenes."
From a study done in Egypt in 2018:"In the case of [Botrytis cinerea], (–)-menthone, eugenol, and α-terpinene were among the most potent mycelial growth inhibitors." (α-pinene was also strong)
There appears to be plenty of evidence of the anti-fungal effects of terpinolene (delta-terpinene), other terpinenes, and pinene. Terpinolene and gamma-terpinene appear to be the main terpinolenes found in cannabis in significant amounts. Both alpha-pinene and beta-pinene are common in cannabis (I combined them in my above charts and labeled simply as pinene).
While there are other anti-fungal terpenes, including myrcene and limonene, I'm guessing that terpinolene and pinene are particularly good at preventing the growth of botrytis bud rot (Botrytis cinerea). In terms of the simple mechanics of this in the growing bud, the off-gassing of terpenes from the trichomes begins in the morning and continues all day. During the night, terpenes begin to regenerate in the trichomes. I'm guessing the main driver in this process is ambient temperature – heat causes terpenes to be emitted, while the cool of the night does the opposite. Terpenes are very volatile, meaning they evaporate into the air very easily.
Botrytis spores (conidia) are very small – on average 12 microns long (0.012mm). The tiny spores land on bud surfaces under the right conditions of warmth and humidity, and send root-like structures into the plant tissue. I see the effects of the terpenes as growth inhibitors of the fungal structures. In the environment of the bud surface, in a forest of terpene-emitting trichomes, the spores simply cannot grow. I don't know the exact mechanism here, but it could be terpene molecules landing on the spore surfaces, or it could be spores landing on terpene-infused resin on the plant surfaces. It could be that the penetration of the plant tissues (trichomes) by the spore root-like structures causes terpene-infused resin to ooze out. Maybe the situation is a combination of all these mechanism. At any rate, terpene molecules shut down the ability of spores to germinate and grow.
It's easy to imagine that equatorial landrace sativas evolved to produce more terpinolene and pinene, since botrytis likes warm, wet environments. Flowers that rot are flowers that don't produce seeds. I think this is why terpinolene is most often associated with sativas. From my charts above, we see that terpinolene has been bred-into indicas and 50/50 hybrids as well. I have a feeling that terpinolene (i.e. delta-terpinene) or gamma-terpinene appear together with alpha-pinene and beta-pinene in cannabis, because of the biochemical processes in cannabis that generate these molecules. My research so far seems to confirm this.
- Thread starter
- #485
cbdhemp808
Well-Known Member
In my chart above, if I remove the 50/50 hybrids from the top 11 strains, we get:
Jack Herer (sativa dom.).. terpinolene 53% (13.5 mg/g), pinene 09%, Tot. 2.57%, Score: 159
Dutch Treat (indica dom.). terpinolene 34% (11.2 mg/g), pinene 06%, Tot. 3.29%, Score: 132
Durban Poison (sativa).... terpinolene 36% (9.47 mg/g), pinene 11%, Tot. 2.63%, Score: 124
LSD (indica dominant)..... terpinolene 46% (9.43 mg/g), pinene 11%, Tot. 2.05%, Score: 117
Chemdawg D (sativa)....... terpinolene 41% (9.96 mg/g), pinene 02%, Tot. 2.43%, Score: 104
Lemon Skunk (sativa dom.). terpinolene 42% (7.30 mg/g), pinene 14%, Tot. 1.74%, Score: 97
Clementine (sativa dom.).. terpinolene 44% (7.70 mg/g), pinene 11%, Tot. 1.75%, Score: 96
Ghost Train Haze (sativa). terpinolene 38% (6.80 mg/g), pinene 10%, Tot. 1.80%, Score: 86
75% are sativa dominant, 25% indica dominant. Now the question is, do Dutch Treat and LSD have multiple phenos, with some having "sativa effects"? I think the answer is yes. I think LSD should actually be labelled 50/50 hybrid.
Perhaps what's going on is that terpene profiles determine "indica effects" and "sativa effects". Perhaps it's the presence of terpinolene and pinene that gives sativas their "sativa effects". And perhaps any hybrid that's known as 50/50 or "indica leaning", that also has "sativa effects", is a situation where terpinolene is dominant (and in combination with pinene). HI-BISCUS is know as a 50/50 hybrid with sativa effects, which I can attest to, and so far it looks like it's terpinolene dominant. (Edit: I would say HI-BISCUS has both indica and sativa effects.)
Jack Herer (sativa dom.).. terpinolene 53% (13.5 mg/g), pinene 09%, Tot. 2.57%, Score: 159
Dutch Treat (indica dom.). terpinolene 34% (11.2 mg/g), pinene 06%, Tot. 3.29%, Score: 132
Durban Poison (sativa).... terpinolene 36% (9.47 mg/g), pinene 11%, Tot. 2.63%, Score: 124
LSD (indica dominant)..... terpinolene 46% (9.43 mg/g), pinene 11%, Tot. 2.05%, Score: 117
Chemdawg D (sativa)....... terpinolene 41% (9.96 mg/g), pinene 02%, Tot. 2.43%, Score: 104
Lemon Skunk (sativa dom.). terpinolene 42% (7.30 mg/g), pinene 14%, Tot. 1.74%, Score: 97
Clementine (sativa dom.).. terpinolene 44% (7.70 mg/g), pinene 11%, Tot. 1.75%, Score: 96
Ghost Train Haze (sativa). terpinolene 38% (6.80 mg/g), pinene 10%, Tot. 1.80%, Score: 86
75% are sativa dominant, 25% indica dominant. Now the question is, do Dutch Treat and LSD have multiple phenos, with some having "sativa effects"? I think the answer is yes. I think LSD should actually be labelled 50/50 hybrid.
Perhaps what's going on is that terpene profiles determine "indica effects" and "sativa effects". Perhaps it's the presence of terpinolene and pinene that gives sativas their "sativa effects". And perhaps any hybrid that's known as 50/50 or "indica leaning", that also has "sativa effects", is a situation where terpinolene is dominant (and in combination with pinene). HI-BISCUS is know as a 50/50 hybrid with sativa effects, which I can attest to, and so far it looks like it's terpinolene dominant. (Edit: I would say HI-BISCUS has both indica and sativa effects.)
- Thread starter
- #486
cbdhemp808
Well-Known Member
Here's an interesting contrast...
3 Terp profiles for Jack Herer
(Jack Herer has 4 phenos A, B, C, D. Phenos A, C, D have sativa traits, and B has indica traits.)
2.57% total terps, terpinolene dominant w/ myrcene & pinene
My guess: mostly sativa traits, possibly pheno D
1.75% total terps, pinene dominant w/ myrcene
My guess: both sativa & indica traits, possibly pheno A or C
1.64% total terps, myrcene dominant w/ caryophyllene and bisabolol
My guess: indica traits, possibly pheno B
Compare the HSC's Humboldt Dream which is indica and shows quite a bit of bud rot resistance:
Let's say 18.5 mg/g total terpenes, or 1.85% total terpenes by weight.
Here's the terp profile for Humboldt Dream in the same notation as the above profiles for Jack Herer...
beta-myrcene.......... 0.91%
alpha-pinene.......... 0.52%
gamma-limonene........ 0.19%
beta-caryophyllene.... 0.12%
That's an insane amount of myrcene... reminds me of the terpinolene dominant JH profile above. Also very high pinene. I would say Humboldt Dream has mostly indica traits.
I have a Humboldt Dream in the flower house right now, and she's starting to produce flowers. She's looking very healthy, and showing some major leaf mold resistance, as compared to the Blueberry next to her, and a Grape Ape that I just harvested today. Perhaps the high myrcene and limonene are factoring into the leaf mold resistance. (By leaf mold I mean leaf spot mold, i.e. septoria and downy mildew.)
3 Terp profiles for Jack Herer
(Jack Herer has 4 phenos A, B, C, D. Phenos A, C, D have sativa traits, and B has indica traits.)
2.57% total terps, terpinolene dominant w/ myrcene & pinene
My guess: mostly sativa traits, possibly pheno D
1.75% total terps, pinene dominant w/ myrcene
My guess: both sativa & indica traits, possibly pheno A or C
1.64% total terps, myrcene dominant w/ caryophyllene and bisabolol
My guess: indica traits, possibly pheno B
Compare the HSC's Humboldt Dream which is indica and shows quite a bit of bud rot resistance:
Let's say 18.5 mg/g total terpenes, or 1.85% total terpenes by weight.
Here's the terp profile for Humboldt Dream in the same notation as the above profiles for Jack Herer...
beta-myrcene.......... 0.91%
alpha-pinene.......... 0.52%
gamma-limonene........ 0.19%
beta-caryophyllene.... 0.12%
That's an insane amount of myrcene... reminds me of the terpinolene dominant JH profile above. Also very high pinene. I would say Humboldt Dream has mostly indica traits.
I have a Humboldt Dream in the flower house right now, and she's starting to produce flowers. She's looking very healthy, and showing some major leaf mold resistance, as compared to the Blueberry next to her, and a Grape Ape that I just harvested today. Perhaps the high myrcene and limonene are factoring into the leaf mold resistance. (By leaf mold I mean leaf spot mold, i.e. septoria and downy mildew.)
Where are you finding the terp numbers? I have a list of the ones in my main strain from the breeder but it's just a list of them, no numbers.Here's an interesting contrast...
3 Terp profiles for Jack Herer
(Jack Herer has 4 phenos A, B, C, D. Phenos A, C, D have sativa traits, and B has indica traits.)
2.57% total terps, terpinolene dominant w/ myrcene & pinene
My guess: mostly sativa traits, possibly pheno D
1.75% total terps, pinene dominant w/ myrcene
My guess: both sativa & indica traits, possibly pheno A or C
1.64% total terps, myrcene dominant w/ caryophyllene and bisabolol
My guess: indica traits, possibly pheno B
Compare the HSC's Humboldt Dream which is indica and shows quite a bit of bud rot resistance:
Let's say 18.5 mg/g total terpenes, or 1.85% total terpenes by weight.
Here's the terp profile for Humboldt Dream in the same notation as the above profiles for Jack Herer...
beta-myrcene.......... 0.91%
alpha-pinene.......... 0.52%
gamma-limonene........ 0.19%
beta-caryophyllene.... 0.12%
That's an insane amount of myrcene... reminds me of the terpinolene dominant JH profile above. Also very high pinene. I would say Humboldt Dream has mostly indica traits.
I have a Humboldt Dream in the flower house right now, and she's starting to produce flowers. She's looking very healthy, and showing some major leaf mold resistance, as compared to the Blueberry next to her, and a Grape Ape that I just harvested today. Perhaps the high myrcene and limonene are factoring into the leaf mold resistance. (By leaf mold I mean leaf spot mold, i.e. septoria and downy mildew.)
- Thread starter
- #488
cbdhemp808
Well-Known Member
MCRLabs, public reports
Check this out!
terpinolene > 1%
Registered Strain Search | Kannapedia
www.kannapedia.net
- Thread starter
- #489
cbdhemp808
Well-Known Member
I found a Vanilla Kush terpene profile that looks to be sativa dominant. HERE
Is it safe to say that all well-known hybrid strains (indica/sativa) will have phenotypes that exhibit both sativa and indica effects and/or growth traits?
Is it safe to say that landrace sativa seed will produce only sativa effects and growth traits? (provided the seed is genuine)
Is it safe to say that landrace indica seed will produce only indica effects and growth traits? (provided the seed is genuine)
When we are buying "indica dominant" seed of any hybrid strain (i.e. not pure indica), and the strain is labelled as X% indica, does this mean that any given seed will produce a plant that is genetically X% indica, or does it mean that X out of 100 phenos will have indica effects and growth traits? (Or, can we say that seed of an "indica dominant" strain will produce mostly phenos that have indica effects and/or growth traits?)
Is it safe to say that all well-known hybrid strains (indica/sativa) will have phenotypes that exhibit both sativa and indica effects and/or growth traits?
Is it safe to say that landrace sativa seed will produce only sativa effects and growth traits? (provided the seed is genuine)
Is it safe to say that landrace indica seed will produce only indica effects and growth traits? (provided the seed is genuine)
When we are buying "indica dominant" seed of any hybrid strain (i.e. not pure indica), and the strain is labelled as X% indica, does this mean that any given seed will produce a plant that is genetically X% indica, or does it mean that X out of 100 phenos will have indica effects and growth traits? (Or, can we say that seed of an "indica dominant" strain will produce mostly phenos that have indica effects and/or growth traits?)
The only landrace I've grown so far is Hindu Kush.
It's an indica. It really hit me more like a balanced hybrid that made it easy to fall asleep.
I have also had a proprietary landrace sativa, and it had pretty similar effects, although I can't tell you where it came from initially.
I think most of the strains we have now have been bred with a preconceived end goal in mind. Plants that had effects that didn't fit into the goal were removed from that breeding project.
If you're looking for a sedative strain, and growing a plant that's labelled "indica" and it doesn't give you couchlock, or make you sleepy, are you going to grow it again?
It's an indica. It really hit me more like a balanced hybrid that made it easy to fall asleep.
I have also had a proprietary landrace sativa, and it had pretty similar effects, although I can't tell you where it came from initially.
I think most of the strains we have now have been bred with a preconceived end goal in mind. Plants that had effects that didn't fit into the goal were removed from that breeding project.
If you're looking for a sedative strain, and growing a plant that's labelled "indica" and it doesn't give you couchlock, or make you sleepy, are you going to grow it again?
- Thread starter
- #491
cbdhemp808
Well-Known Member
RE: sativa/indica and terpenes
At this point, good to review this article:
And this June '23 thread starting here:
At this point, good to review this article:
Cannabis labelling is associated with genetic variation in terpene synthase genes - Nature Plants
By quantifying over 100 Cannabis samples for terpene and cannabinoid content and genotyping them for over 100,000 single nucleotide polymorphisms, this study finds that Cannabis labelling is associated with genetic variants in terpene synthase genes.
www.nature.com
And this June '23 thread starting here:
Quest for mold-resistant strains, Hawaii outdoor greenhouse grow
Then of course there's a bunch of research that says there is NO molecular difference between the two. And in most breeder culture they no longer even use the terminology "indica" and "sativa", and have replaced them with broad leaf, and narrow leaf. OR THIS STUDY...
www.420magazine.com
- Thread starter
- #492
cbdhemp808
Well-Known Member
My question is more about seed lines for specific strains that are sold and labelled as "indica dominant" or "sativa dominant" or for example, 80% sativa/20% indica, etc.
I'm guessing that any well-known hybrid stains like this will produce both indica and sativa phenos. And by that I mean, indica effects and/or growth traits, or sativa effects and/or growth traits. There are certainly many example of such strains, like Chemdawg or Jack Herer, that produce multiple known phenos.
Well, for some of them I would agree.
There are others that were stabilized enough that they didn't really have multiple phenos like that.
From what I've read about Blueberry, early in its existence there were really only short, bushy, wide leaf phenos.
It wasn't until DJ Short's son JD back crossed it with the original Thai strains to make a "sativa" version that a "sativa pheno" of it started to appear.
Almost any seeds you get nowadays will be a mix of the two based on the grows I've seen.
But in the main I'd agree that most hybrids have multiple phenos.
- Thread starter
- #494
cbdhemp808
Well-Known Member
It's all phenos, baby!
I'll guess now that all phenos that are terpinolene/pinene dominant can be called "sativas", whether or not the strain is known as "sativa dominant" or "indica dominant". Some phenos will have both indica and sativa effects. When a pheno shows high terpinolene/pinene – however, not a distinct dominance of terpinolene/pinene – it makes sense to call the pheno a 50/50 hybrid.
Here's a new version of my chart, assuming now that all of these represent phenos with sativa effects due to terpinolene/pinene. Strains known as 50/50 hybrids are shown in blue, and may have both indica and sativa effects. Strains known as indica dominant are shown in purple (i.e. the terp profile is for a sativa pheno of an indica dominant strain).
They are all sativa phenos, or 50/50's with sativa effects
Jack Herer................ terpinolene 53% (13.5 mg/g), pinene 09%, Tot. 2.57%, Score: 159
XJ-13..................... terpinolene 49% (11.6 mg/g), pinene 10%, Tot. 2.39%, Score: 141
HI-BISCUS................. terpinolene 33% (7.72 mg/g), pinene 25%, Tot. 2.34%, Score: 136
Dutch Treat............... terpinolene 34% (11.2 mg/g), pinene 06%, Tot. 3.29%, Score: 132
Durban Poison............. terpinolene 36% (9.47 mg/g), pinene 11%, Tot. 2.63%, Score: 124
LSD....................... terpinolene 46% (9.43 mg/g), pinene 11%, Tot. 2.05%, Score: 117
MAC....................... terpinolene 41% (9.35 mg/g), pinene 06%, Tot. 2.28%, Score: 107
Chemdawg D................ terpinolene 41% (9.96 mg/g), pinene 02%, Tot. 2.43%, Score: 104
Lemon Skunk............... terpinolene 42% (7.30 mg/g), pinene 14%, Tot. 1.74%, Score: 97
Clementine................ terpinolene 44% (7.70 mg/g), pinene 11%, Tot. 1.75%, Score: 96
Ghost Train Haze.......... terpinolene 38% (6.80 mg/g), pinene 10%, Tot. 1.80%, Score: 86
Chernobyl................. terpinolene 39% (5.70 mg/g), pinene 12%, Tot. 1.47%, Score: 75
Mac N Cheese.............. terpinolene 22% (3.92 mg/g), pinene 19%, Tot. 1.78%, Score: 73
Grapefruit Kush........... terpinolene 37% (5.00 mg/g), pinene 10%, Tot. 1.36%, Score: 64
Super Lemon Haze.......... terpinolene 27% (4.20 mg/g), pinene 12%, Tot. 1.53%, Score: 60
Trainwreck................ terpinolene 40% (4.20 mg/g), pinene 15%, Tot. 1.06%, Score: 58
Lemon Diesel.............. terpinolene 25% (3.80 mg/g), pinene 10%, Tot. 1.50%, Score: 40
Zkittlez.................. terpinolene 23% (2.70 mg/g), pinene 08%, Tot. 1.18%, Score: 37
Now here's a subtlety – for the 50/50 strains above shown in blue, do these terp profiles represent 50/50 phenos, i.e. with both sativa and indica effects, or do they represent sativa phenos, i.e. with mainly sativa effects?
I think some "indica dominant" (purple) phenos at the bottom of the chart should actually be re-designated as 50/50 – I'll try to figure that out. I would base that on the ratio of (terpinolene/pinene/ocimene/terpinine) to (myrcene/caryophyllene/humulene) – if "very close", then I'd say 50/50. I think I would leave limonene out of that ratio, since there's evidence that it can be either stimulating or sedating.
I'll guess now that all phenos that are terpinolene/pinene dominant can be called "sativas", whether or not the strain is known as "sativa dominant" or "indica dominant". Some phenos will have both indica and sativa effects. When a pheno shows high terpinolene/pinene – however, not a distinct dominance of terpinolene/pinene – it makes sense to call the pheno a 50/50 hybrid.
Here's a new version of my chart, assuming now that all of these represent phenos with sativa effects due to terpinolene/pinene. Strains known as 50/50 hybrids are shown in blue, and may have both indica and sativa effects. Strains known as indica dominant are shown in purple (i.e. the terp profile is for a sativa pheno of an indica dominant strain).
They are all sativa phenos, or 50/50's with sativa effects
Jack Herer................ terpinolene 53% (13.5 mg/g), pinene 09%, Tot. 2.57%, Score: 159
XJ-13..................... terpinolene 49% (11.6 mg/g), pinene 10%, Tot. 2.39%, Score: 141
HI-BISCUS................. terpinolene 33% (7.72 mg/g), pinene 25%, Tot. 2.34%, Score: 136
Dutch Treat............... terpinolene 34% (11.2 mg/g), pinene 06%, Tot. 3.29%, Score: 132
Durban Poison............. terpinolene 36% (9.47 mg/g), pinene 11%, Tot. 2.63%, Score: 124
LSD....................... terpinolene 46% (9.43 mg/g), pinene 11%, Tot. 2.05%, Score: 117
MAC....................... terpinolene 41% (9.35 mg/g), pinene 06%, Tot. 2.28%, Score: 107
Chemdawg D................ terpinolene 41% (9.96 mg/g), pinene 02%, Tot. 2.43%, Score: 104
Lemon Skunk............... terpinolene 42% (7.30 mg/g), pinene 14%, Tot. 1.74%, Score: 97
Clementine................ terpinolene 44% (7.70 mg/g), pinene 11%, Tot. 1.75%, Score: 96
Ghost Train Haze.......... terpinolene 38% (6.80 mg/g), pinene 10%, Tot. 1.80%, Score: 86
Chernobyl................. terpinolene 39% (5.70 mg/g), pinene 12%, Tot. 1.47%, Score: 75
Mac N Cheese.............. terpinolene 22% (3.92 mg/g), pinene 19%, Tot. 1.78%, Score: 73
Grapefruit Kush........... terpinolene 37% (5.00 mg/g), pinene 10%, Tot. 1.36%, Score: 64
Super Lemon Haze.......... terpinolene 27% (4.20 mg/g), pinene 12%, Tot. 1.53%, Score: 60
Trainwreck................ terpinolene 40% (4.20 mg/g), pinene 15%, Tot. 1.06%, Score: 58
Lemon Diesel.............. terpinolene 25% (3.80 mg/g), pinene 10%, Tot. 1.50%, Score: 40
Zkittlez.................. terpinolene 23% (2.70 mg/g), pinene 08%, Tot. 1.18%, Score: 37
Now here's a subtlety – for the 50/50 strains above shown in blue, do these terp profiles represent 50/50 phenos, i.e. with both sativa and indica effects, or do they represent sativa phenos, i.e. with mainly sativa effects?
I think some "indica dominant" (purple) phenos at the bottom of the chart should actually be re-designated as 50/50 – I'll try to figure that out. I would base that on the ratio of (terpinolene/pinene/ocimene/terpinine) to (myrcene/caryophyllene/humulene) – if "very close", then I'd say 50/50. I think I would leave limonene out of that ratio, since there's evidence that it can be either stimulating or sedating.
Hmm.
You got me interested in this. I found a site called greenhealthdocs.com.
They had a list of high terpinolene strains that was pretty similar to yours, although they didn't give the amounts.
One thing I found interesting was what they said about the effects of terpinolene.
Here's a bit of it:
Terpinolene when combined with CBD can provide a calming and relaxing experience, reducing stress and anxiety because of its sedative qualities. Terpinolene when isolated has natural sedative qualities. It’s one of the main terpenes in tea tree oil and patchouli and has been found to aid in relaxation.
You got me interested in this. I found a site called greenhealthdocs.com.
They had a list of high terpinolene strains that was pretty similar to yours, although they didn't give the amounts.
One thing I found interesting was what they said about the effects of terpinolene.
Here's a bit of it:
Terpinolene when combined with CBD can provide a calming and relaxing experience, reducing stress and anxiety because of its sedative qualities. Terpinolene when isolated has natural sedative qualities. It’s one of the main terpenes in tea tree oil and patchouli and has been found to aid in relaxation.
- Thread starter
- #496
cbdhemp808
Well-Known Member
Thanks for that.
There seem to be mixed reports – some say sedating, some say energizing. It looks like when it's isolated, it may be sedating. When entouraged with other terpenes and/or cannabinoids in the flower profile, it can be energizing/stimulating. I think most reports on well-known, high-terpinolene strains will say it's energizing, e.g. Durban Poison.
Trulieve.com says,
Leafwell.com says,
It seems the Terpinolene + THC/CBD information is murky, though. It seems Leafwell copied the same text as you found in GreenHealthDocs re: CBD.
MyFeelState.com says,
This scientific paper may provides some clues:
This one is very important to the discussion...
And here's the Italian study of M. Bonesi, 2010, on the ability of pine essential oils, including terpinolene and pinene, to inhibit the nervous system enzyme, acetylcholinesterase (AChE)
Research shows that THC and other cannabinoids also inhibit AChE, and that CBD is a "competitive inhibitor"
Inhibitory Effects of Cannabinoids on Acetylcholinesterase and Butyrylcholinesterase Enzyme Activities
Acetylcholinesterase (AChE) and butyrylcholinesterase (BChE) are two cholinergic enzymes catalyzing the reaction of cleaving acetylcholine into acetate and choline at the neuromuscular junction. Abnormal hyperactivity of AChE and BChE can lead to cholinergic ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
The ability of AChE inhibitors to produce a stimulating effect on the nervous system is dose-specific. The Bonsesi study shows that pine terpenes have a dose-specific AChE inhibitory effect.
The overall theoretical conclusion is that if pine terpenes are present in sufficient quantities along with THC and other cannabinoids, then this will produce a stimulating effect.
The Bonesi study tested pine essential oils, but also individual terpenes: terpinolene, β-phellandrene, linalyl acetate, trans-caryophyllene, and terpinen-4-ol...
Differing effects based on which cannabinoid it's paired with.
I think I also read that tetpinolene doesn’t seem to be naturally occurring in CBD strains?
One note on Durban Poison though, as an African landrace it can have higher than average levels of THCV, which is absolutely a stimulant.
I think I also read that tetpinolene doesn’t seem to be naturally occurring in CBD strains?
One note on Durban Poison though, as an African landrace it can have higher than average levels of THCV, which is absolutely a stimulant.
- Thread starter
- #498
cbdhemp808
Well-Known Member
Yes, it appears that THC (and other cannabinoids) combined with terpinolene and pinene produces the stimulant effect. They are all AChE inhibitors, including CBD; however some are a lot stronger that others. [ source ] E.g. "CBC and CBN showed weak inhibitory activities".
Some additional investigation of CBD was done that indicates it is a "competitive AChE inhibitor," which means that it binds to AChE (if I'm saying that right)...
"Competitive inhibition is interruption of a chemical pathway owing to one chemical substance inhibiting the effect of another by competing with it for binding or bonding. "
I think THC is doing the same thing.
~~~~~
There's also some interesting info in one of the studies I linked to above, titled Selected cannabis terpenes synergize with THC to produce increased CB1 receptor activation, June, 2023...
Below I've added the red boxes to the chart, showing pinene, myrcene, and terpinolene at a concentration of 10 µM – combined with sufficient THC concentration (F) of 1.3 µM (?) – have the highest activity among the prominent cannabis terpenes in synergizing with THC to increase CB1 receptor activation...
µM = micromolar, a unit of concentration in liquids.
This is very cool... before seeing this, I thought myrcene was the main one, or only one. Now we see beta-pinene as the star of the show, and if combined with alpha-pinene, they steal the show. And terpinolene even surpasses myrcene.
So, not only are the pine terpenes involved in increasing the AChE inhibitory effects of THC, they are also increasing the cannabinoid CB1 receptor activation, which increases the effects of THC.
Now the question is, are these two processes related? Could be...
"...THC if acted through CB1 receptors, would cause the release of dopamine [49]. Increase in dopamine may decrease the AChE..." [source, 2020]
What does it all mean? It looks like the pine terpenes, in sufficient quantities along with THC, are responsible for both the stimulating effects attributed to sativas, as well as the strong psychoactive effects. Could the absence of the pine terpenes account for the opposite, i.e. the sedative effects attributed to indicas, as well as the non-psychoactive effects, i.e. body high? I have a feeling the answer is, yes.
In the above chart, if we look at the numeric measure of the CB1 receptor activation (red boxes), the sum of the pine terpenes, including terpineol, is huge at 651! This is significant, because in the terpinolene dominant terpene profiles I've looked at, they usually also show pinene in significant amounts. (Significant amounts of terpineol seems to be quite rare in cannabis terpene profiles; however, the terpinenes – alpha and gamma – do sometimes appear in significant amounts.)
~~~~~
Now, to bring the focus back to bud rot resistance...
Again, here's the terp profile for Humboldt Dream, which I have been growing...
1.85% total terpenes by weight
beta-myrcene.......... 0.91%
alpha-pinene.......... 0.52%
gamma-limonene........ 0.19%
beta-caryophyllene.... 0.12%
I wrote:
Assuming the above terp profile matches the pheno I am growing...
I definitely don't feel any stimulating effects from this myrcene dominant pheno, even though there's quite a lot of pinene content as well. It appears that this combination and concentration of terpenes is responsible for strong leaf mold resistance. The pheno shows some bud rot resistance, but not nearly as solid as HI-BISCUS which is terpinolene dominant with high concentration of pinene as well. Again, I have experienced HI-BISCUS as having both indica and sativa effects.
HI-BISCUS
terpinolene........... 0.33%
pinene................ 0.25%
myrcene............... 0.25%
The thing about HI-BISCUS is that it was super bud rot resistant, but definitely not leaf mold resistant. [ harvest report ].
Now the question is, how do I find the Holy Grail of both bud rot resistance and leaf mold resistance in the same pheno? The answer may be to ask Kevin McKernan... I mean, search his database.
- Thread starter
- #499
cbdhemp808
Well-Known Member
AND THE ANSWER IS...
KANNAPEDIA DATABASE ROUNDUP
The max terp Holy Grail #1 winners are...
Durban Poison and Plushypinez #2 pheno by Krunkz Kreationz
This is for max terps: terpinolene, pinene, myrcene, limonene, beta-caryophyllene
Durban Poison (sativa)
20.28% total terpenes - holy sh*t!!
Plushypinez #2 (indica leaning?)
11.82% total terpenes - holy sh*t!!
Plushypinez = Plushberry x No Proof Purp
KANNAPEDIA DATABASE ROUNDUP
The max terp Holy Grail #1 winners are...
Durban Poison and Plushypinez #2 pheno by Krunkz Kreationz
This is for max terps: terpinolene, pinene, myrcene, limonene, beta-caryophyllene
Durban Poison (sativa)
20.28% total terpenes - holy sh*t!!
Plushypinez #2 (indica leaning?)
11.82% total terpenes - holy sh*t!!
Plushypinez = Plushberry x No Proof Purp
- Plushberry = Black Cherry Soda x Space Queen
- No Proof Purp = Purple Pineberry x Granddaddy Purple
You had me at Durban Poison
