SweetSue's Cannabis Oil Study Hall

[SweetSue]

I had a few general questions, if that's OK. I have skimmed, scanned and dug into a few section of this long informational thread and had a some questions pop up.
My questions relate to "cannaoil" made with olive, coconut oil or other carrier oil.

1 I noticed quite a few methods and "techs" for decarbing and wanted to know what is the best way to decarb, and what would be the efficiency of conversion? Personally I just started decarbing in the carrier oil and had excellent results, is that the best way as you have a visual indicator of when decarbing has ceased?

2 I seen a few posts where people toss out the 85 percent infusion rate. Where does this number come from and why is it impossible to get a 100 percent infusion/extraction.

3 When using lecithin to make the oil more bioavailable, what is the best ratio to use?
How much lecithin do I add to whatever amount of oil, and Is the liquid lecithin better over the powdered products?

These are the main 3 that have been bobbing around in my head Back to researching. Thanx for any help.

Rob. Let me see if I can answer your questions.

First off, I’d agree with you that decarbing in the carrier oil is the optimal way to get an oil you can easily dose with control. You’ll also trap more terpenes decarbing while infusing.

I don’t worry much about complete decarb, understanding the value of a diverse cannabinoid and terpene profile. We really know so little.

The best decarb I get - checking with a hot oil bath for decarb efficiency - is in the pressure cooker (I have an Instant Pot) on high pressure for 1 hour and 50 minutes. It comes out almost completely decarbed.

The infusion rate is an industry standard, and only meant to be a best guess. With an infused oil you’ll never get 100% extraction. Some of the oil will remain in the plant material regardless of your work to release it. So 85% gives us lots of wiggle room.

Testing is the only way to be certain of the components found in your oils. Someday that service’ll be widely available at a reasonable cost. Right now....not so much.

Lastly, dry lecithin has phospholipids, which are an abundant part of every living cell. Liquid sunflower lecithin has additional glycophospholipids. The significance is that glychophospholipids contain both the phosphate found in phospholipids as well as carbohydrate as integral structural components. In simple terms, they build stronger cells.

 

[Robileaf]

I am also a bit unsure of times.....once decarbed, I drop my temp to around the boiling point of water and finish the extraction/infusion. last time I ran the infusion for another 2 hrs after the decarb point but I wasn't sure if I needed more time or less. How long do people typically leave it to ensure the best extraction/infusion? I understand it will never be 100 percent based on various factors but I would like to ensure I am getting out the most I possibly can. Any pointers?

 

[SweetSue]

The Dutch pretty much proved that 110° C for 110 minutes gives you close to a complete decarb.

However..... We have many instances around the membership like the one where an alcohol tincture was left in the MB2 for two weeks and the resulting medicine was significantly more potent than previous batches, or Oldbear who's wife accidentally turned the oven on without removing his already decarbed oil and cooking it at a rediculous temp for an unknown period and the result was an oil more potent than he'd gotten previously.

I think there are things going on in decarb that we haven't even begun to identify. Find a method that you're comfortable with that gives you an oil that's potent to your needs. I think every one of us has an individual method that we're happiest with. For me it's undecarbed buds in the IP, so simple I can set it and walk away, to return hours later to a complete product.

For Oldbear and Shed it's in the oven, with pinpricks in the foil covering the vessel. Dave Groomer uses decarbed buds and an 8-hr cycle in the MB2. We all found our comfort zone through trial and error, and I think most of us have come to the conclusion that there's too much attention on trying to get a complete decarb. All of the cannabinoids are valuable medicine, THCa primary among them.

 

[Robileaf]

The Dutch pretty much proved that 110° C for 110 minutes gives you close to a complete decarb.

However..... We have many instances around the membership like the one where an alcohol tincture was left in the MB2 for two weeks and the resulting medicine was significantly more potent than previous batches, or Oldbear who's wife accidentally turned the oven on without removing his already decarbed oil and cooking it at a rediculous temp for an unknown period and the result was an oil more potent than he'd gotten previously.

I think there are things going on in decarb that we haven't even begun to identify. Find a method that you're comfortable with that gives you an oil that's potent to your needs. I think every one of us has an individual method that we're happiest with. For me it's undecarbed buds in the IP, so simple I can set it and walk away, to return hours later to a complete product.

For Oldbear and Shed it's in the oven, with pinpricks in the foil covering the vessel. Dave Groomer uses decarbed buds and an 8-hr cycle in the MB2. We all found our comfort zone through trial and error, and I think most of us have come to the conclusion that there's too much attention on trying to get a complete decarb. All of the cannabinoids are valuable medicine, THCa primary among them.

110c is about 230f. I started with 240f for 40 minutes in oil as a guideline but just let it run until bubbling stopped and dropped the temp to about 105c to finish infusion. I understand what you are saying about personal preference and tech. From what I have seen based on a early test I will stick with carrier oil decarb for now until I have a reason to change it.

To note, I have noticed that "overcooking the oil, does give a more couch lock-narcotic effect" which to many may make the oil seem more potent. I have found information to suggest that overtemping and time breaks down more THC to CBN. Some say yes and some say no..this might be what oldbear found in his overcooked oil. As you mentioned it is alot of guess work and trial and error without accurate testing of the finished product.

One last thing, when members speak of 85 percent, they are talking about the finished volume of oil and not extraction efficiency correct? e.g, you start with 1000 ml of carrier and end up with 850 ml of medicated oil when done? I was just trying to get some pointers from people with more experience to help ensure the finished medicine is as close to my math as possible.

For instance I always try to make the medicine at 10mg/ml for ease of dosing but the math always assumes perfect decarb and extraction. I was looking for a reasonable error factor to adjust but I guess the 85 percent is not relevant in that case. Sorry for hitting you with all the questions but I have not had many opportunities to speak with anybody on the subject and have just piecing together tech from here and there to get the most potent medicine I can. I appreciate the insights.

 

[InTheShed]

I always figured that the 85% efficiency was the percentage of trichomes you can get off the buds with an oil infusion process.

Concentration and Doseage Calculator

Oldbear created an amazing excel spreadsheet for calculating oil strength (link above). PM me for complete instructions if you're interested.

 

[60's Old Timer]

"The journey begins..........
I came to 420 Magazine on a fit of whimsy...."
I sincerely hope you will not be offended by my initial response, may God supremely bless & guide you as you continue this compilation. My wife of 50 years is a cancer survivor following a major uterus surgery about 10 yrs ago. We share doses our homemade infused oil nightly. I have tried the Everclear solvent wash but not happy with the results. Also tried a long term cold infusion similar to our other herb infusions. No success there at all. With my own plants just germinated, we are purchasing some local material this week to try the coconut oil heated infusion. I am afraid I have limited information and experiences to add to your compilation, but I will monitor and contribute as I feel capable. May all be well with you...

 

[InTheShed]

"The journey begins..........
I came to 420 Magazine on a fit of whimsy...."
I sincerely hope you will not be offended by my initial response, may God supremely bless & guide you as you continue this compilation. My wife of 50 years is a cancer survivor following a major uterus surgery about 10 yrs ago. We share doses our homemade infused oil nightly. I have tried the Everclear solvent wash but not happy with the results. Also tried a long term cold infusion similar to our other herb infusions. No success there at all. With my own plants just germinated, we are purchasing some local material this week to try the coconut oil heated infusion. I am afraid I have limited information and experiences to add to your compilation, but I will monitor and contribute as I feel capable. May all be well with you...

The sweet spot for infusing oil with bud that is already decarbed seems to be in the 160-180º F range. I now infuse for 8 hours at that temp.

 

[Oldbear]

My last batch, I tried a new to me method: Decarbing in the oil for 2 hrs @ 220F, then I left it in the oven @ 180F overnight for the infusion. I think sweetSue does it like this.

Results were good but I have no lab test results to know exactly what I have.

For the 'overcooked' batch, there was no harm done - my initial fear. I was using a 50-50 thc:cbd strain. The thc effects were stronger than usual - very perky and energetic more than couch lock.

It could be a better decarb, or simply that the longer cook time allowed the oil to pick up more cannabinoids.

My suggestion for people is to experiment with small batches - a couple grams at a time. I have concluded that there is a wide range of times and temps that will work well.

I keep all the leftovers. Often Ill save it up then run a second extraction / infusion. The results are worth it. I also keep the mash (crumbled cannabis bits soaked with oil) and consume it different ways.

One thing to mention is I dont grind up the buds. Just crumble them by hand.

 

[SweetSue]

110c is about 230f. I started with 240f for 40 minutes in oil as a guideline but just let it run until bubbling stopped and dropped the temp to about 105c to finish infusion. I understand what you are saying about personal preference and tech. From what I have seen based on a early test I will stick with carrier oil decarb for now until I have a reason to change it.

To note, I have noticed that "overcooking the oil, does give a more couch lock-narcotic effect" which to many may make the oil seem more potent. I have found information to suggest that overtemping and time breaks down more THC to CBN. Some say yes and some say no..this might be what oldbear found in his overcooked oil. As you mentioned it is alot of guess work and trial and error without accurate testing of the finished product.

One last thing, when members speak of 85 percent, they are talking about the finished volume of oil and not extraction efficiency correct? e.g, you start with 1000 ml of carrier and end up with 850 ml of medicated oil when done? I was just trying to get some pointers from people with more experience to help ensure the finished medicine is as close to my math as possible.

For instance I always try to make the medicine at 10mg/ml for ease of dosing but the math always assumes perfect decarb and extraction. I was looking for a reasonable error factor to adjust but I guess the 85 percent is not relevant in that case. Sorry for hitting you with all the questions but I have not had many opportunities to speak with anybody on the subject and have just piecing together tech from here and there to get the most potent medicine I can. I appreciate the insights.

Hitting us with questions makes us smile Rob.

Six of one, half dozen of another. If you only get 85% of the oil recovered it’s only gonna contain 85% of the cannabinoids you estimated to be in there when you start.

Here’s my formula:

Let’s say I’m using 100 grams of a chemovar with 10% THC, and I’m infusing it into 500 ml of EVOO.

I start with the 85% extraction efficiency rate times the expected cannabinoid load. Using 10% THC value we get

85% x 10% = 0.085

0.085 x 100 g = 8.5 g of THC available

8.5 g x 1000 = 8,500 mg of THC available

8500/500 ml = 17 mg/ml

You can expect around 17 mg of THC per ml of EVOO, or whatever carrier oil you choose.

Was that helpful? Without labs we’re all guessing, but this puts us in the ballpark.

 

[SweetSue]

"The journey begins..........
I came to 420 Magazine on a fit of whimsy...."
I sincerely hope you will not be offended by my initial response, may God supremely bless & guide you as you continue this compilation. My wife of 50 years is a cancer survivor following a major uterus surgery about 10 yrs ago. We share doses our homemade infused oil nightly. I have tried the Everclear solvent wash but not happy with the results. Also tried a long term cold infusion similar to our other herb infusions. No success there at all. With my own plants just germinated, we are purchasing some local material this week to try the coconut oil heated infusion. I am afraid I have limited information and experiences to add to your compilation, but I will monitor and contribute as I feel capable. May all be well with you...

@60's Old Timer ... I can’t think of a single reason we’d be offended by your post. to brainstorming central. Lol! I look forward your input. I’m certain you undervalue your contributions.

I’m curious, did you decarb before infusing? I don’t quite understand what you mean by a lack of success. By what criteria was the oil you produced deemed less than adequate?

I’m the questioning sort. You’ll get used to that. Please don’t think you have to read through to have us help you. No one need read through this thread unless it thrills you. Lol! It’s not like other threads.

 

[Robileaf]

Hitting us with questions makes us smile Rob.

Six of one, half dozen of another. If you only get 85% of the oil recovered it’s only gonna contain 85% of the cannabinoids you estimated to be in there when you start.

Any suggestions on the amount of lecithin to use for a given amount of oil?

 

[Oldbear]

"The journey begins..........
I came to 420 Magazine on a fit of whimsy...."
I sincerely hope you will not be offended by my initial response, may God supremely bless & guide you as you continue this compilation. My wife of 50 years is a cancer survivor following a major uterus surgery about 10 yrs ago. We share doses our homemade infused oil nightly. I have tried the Everclear solvent wash but not happy with the results. Also tried a long term cold infusion similar to our other herb infusions. No success there at all. With my own plants just germinated, we are purchasing some local material this week to try the coconut oil heated infusion. I am afraid I have limited information and experiences to add to your compilation, but I will monitor and contribute as I feel capable. May all be well with you...

Hi 60sOT welcome to a wonderful place full of great peeps willing to help everybody

Congrats on a 10 year survival and best wishes for bunches of 10 more.

There is nothing in your post that’s offensive.

There are so many methods to effectively get cannabinoids in the system it’s quite a chore to test them out.

Like you I didn’t like solvent based extractions more a worry about residue than anything

I tried slow cold infusion and nothing good happened.

Edible oil infusions with decarbing in the oil is my thing. Recipe posted and very similar to Sues.

I’m not alone in using cannabis like a vegetable. I eat it raw. Use dried flowe and sugar leaves in all sorts of cooking

I get a very pleasant and welcome reaction to the cannabinoids pre decarb.[/QUOTE]

 

[SweetSue]

I like the way you phrased that Oldbear "...a very pleasant and welcome reaction from the cannabinoids pre-decarb." That sense of wellbeing that comes from consuming raw Cannabis is a delight I never expected.

 

[BeemerBill]

Good day SweetSue, Been awhile since I've been on 420 but it's time to be on here again. My sweetheart of 44 years has just been diagnosed with stage 4 lung cancer. I have made, in the past RSO with everclear, but haven't used it for cancer only a friends crohns. Now it's time to get the best way to kick this to the side. I see people are infusing oils instead of washing with everclear. I have infused it using my MB2 for capsules and it seems to work ok. I have read a lot but I need to know how it's done now as fast as I can. Any help will be greatly appreciated.

Bill

 

[InTheShed]

Good day SweetSue, Been awhile since I've been on 420 but it's time to be on here again. My sweetheart of 44 years has just been diagnosed with stage 4 lung cancer. I have made, in the past RSO with everclear, but haven't used it for cancer only a friends crohns. Now it's time to get the best way to kick this to the side. I see people are infusing oils instead of washing with everclear. I have infused it using my MB2 for capsules and it seems to work ok. I have read a lot but I need to know how it's done now as fast as I can. Any help will be greatly appreciated.
Bill

Welcome back Bill but I'm so sorry it's under such stressful circumstances. I'm going to let the pros get here when they can, but I can tell you that infused oil will never pack the punch of QWET. Ethanol basically strips every trichome off the stem and makes it available when making RSO (what we here have taken to calling CCO, or concentrated cannabis oil).

With an oil infusion we tend to talk about 75-85% efficiency in getting the cannabinoids out of the buds and into the oil, but QWET will probably get you closer to 100% with two washes. Also, you end up with a pure product you can evaporate the ethanol from to get the dosing you will need for tacking and the like, but if you need to make capsules from it you can always dilute it later to whatever strength you want.

That's about what I know from being here, but as I said, Sue and the rest of the experienced growers will be here soon to help you out.

Here are a couple of links that might help in the meantime:
Cannabis Oil Dosing Tutorial - Tacking Method

How To Make Concentrated Cannabis Oil

Again, I'm sorry to hear of your sweetheart's travails and wish her a speedy recovery, with your help of course!

 

[BeemerBill]

Welcome back Bill but I'm so sorry it's under such stressful circumstances. I'm going to let the pros get here when they can, but I can tell you that infused oil will never pack the punch of QWET. Ethanol basically strips every trichome off the stem and makes it available when making RSO (what we here have taken to calling CCO, or concentrated cannabis oil).

With an oil infusion we tend to talk about 75-85% efficiency in getting the cannabinoids out of the buds and into the oil, but QWET will probably get you closer to 100% with two washes. Also, you end up with a pure product you can evaporate the ethanol from to get the dosing you will need for tacking and the like, but if you need to make capsules from it you can always dilute it later to whatever strength you want.

That's about what I know from being here, but as I said, Sue and the rest of the experienced growers will be here soon to help you out.

Here are a couple of links that might help in the meantime:
Cannabis Oil Dosing Tutorial - Tacking Method

How To Make Concentrated Cannabis Oil

Again, I'm sorry to hear of your sweetheart's travails and wish her a speedy recovery, with your help of course!

Thanks Shed, We are going for our medical card on Thursday but that really doesn't help a lot here in Washington. Saving money isn't part of getting a card. I will be able to grow again legally so I don't have to buy later on. With the card I will be able to buy more at a time at least. Heck it may not even help to grow because I need it now for her so buying it is more than likely will be what we have to do. It will take a fair amount of money to do this but that is not the worry. I just want her fixed.

 

[SweetSue]

Thanks Shed, We are going for our medical card on Thursday but that really doesn't help a lot here in Washington. Saving money isn't part of getting a card. I will be able to grow again legally so I don't have to buy later on. With the card I will be able to buy more at a time at least. Heck it may not even help to grow because I need it now for her so buying it is more than likely will be what we have to do. It will take a fair amount of money to do this but that is not the worry. I just want her fixed.

It’d be nice to have her fixed Bill.

I’m gonna suggest Cajun’s protocol, which is done with CCO mixed with liquid sunflower lecithin and olive oil. You can go one of two ways, the original mix Cajun used, or the Biobomb formulations we worked up for suppository use. Both of those formulas can be found in the BioBomb thread.

Cajun’s thread is a wealth of bioavailability information. Take the time to read the first four pages, at least, and meet us on the current page with your questions please. This keeps our cancer protocol discussions more organized.

I was just researching breast cancer this evening Bill. Must have felt you on the breeze. Please Tell your beloved to have hope.

If you’re inclined to, find her a copy of Kelly Turner’s Radical Remission. It’s a quick and inspiration read that’ll convince her that her cells know what they need to do.

Fear has a way of blocking the signals, so you get my basic prescriptions for realigning your healing force.

* Take time to hug, and hold it for at least three slow breaths. Do this at least once a day, every day. Hugs are a healing modality we don’t fully understand.

* Take ten minutes a day and do everything possible to make each other laugh hysterically for at least that ten minutes. Do this every day without fail. Laughter is the best medicine. When we laugh we release all the tension confusing the healing signaling.

There, a little hope to chew in. Cajun frequently told us that breast cancer was particularly responsive to suppository administration of cannabinoids.

Another couple hugs to tide you two over.

 

[SweetSue]

@BeemerBill, make a strong topical - I make mine 1 gram to 1 oz of grape seed oil, with other additions - and have her apply it to the affected breast. Then just keep doing that with the expectation that it’s having a positive effect.

If you need a recipe just ask and one will materialize.

 

[InTheShed]

@BeemerBill, make a strong topical - I make mine 1 gram to 1 oz of grape seed oil, with other additions - and have her apply it to the affected breast. Then just keep doing that with the expectation that it’s having a positive effect.

If you need a recipe just ask and one will materialize.

Sorry Sue, Bill said his sweetheart had lung cancer. Or do you mean the breast on the side of the affected lung?

 

[BeemerBill]

Thanks again Shed. Sue I understand the stress of trying to respond to everyone and getting things mixed up. Not a problem on my end. Yes my wife has stage 4 lung cancer and I need to know the best procedure for this. I do have and I will be making some suppositories from some RSO that was made from some really old bud. It was getting to harsh to smoke so I washed it and then boiled it off. It may not be the best but it's what I have right now so I'm going to give it a try. This coming week we will get our mmj card so we can grow and save a small amount of money.