Testing New LED Lights vs 1000w HPS

[Scooby_Snacks]

LED CONS
1 on my list is coverage its the lights biggest downfall
This hurtle, i realy dont think this light will ever get over.

Can only disagree with the last part.

When LED tech gets to the point that you can get 2x-3x as much light out of each bulb that you do now AND get it out of a 90 degree or 120 degree bulb they will surpass it. Right now you can either get coverage area or penetration, not sure how long but I'm sure it will come.

 

[Bolivar]

For me, at this point the cost of LEDs is the deal-breaker. Two 126s for $850 vs. 1 600W HID for quite a bit less is no contest. I can afford an air-conditioner for my tent for less than I'd pay for equivalent LEDs to replace my HID. And get better yield in the bargain...

 

[Mr G]

This is my first real grow. I couldn't be happier with the LED setup. I supplement with a pr. of 65W=300W flowering bulbs and added a small fan to the mix. Total watts consumed is 286. Everything runs cool and quiet. I'm sure a bigger, better light source would yield more, but in my particular case that's not a priority. For me, it fits the bill perfectly.

 

[Bolivar]

Nice looking plant, Mr G.

 

[Eagle1]

This is my first real grow. I couldn't be happier with the LED setup. I supplement with a pr. of 65W=300W flowering bulbs and added a small fan to the mix. Total watts consumed is 286. Everything runs cool and quiet. I'm sure a bigger, better light source would yield more, but in my particular case that's not a priority. For me, it fits the bill perfectly.

Well i'm just getting into my 1st as well (indoor) and under LED and my opinion is this so far: Either use other LED's as sidelites or augment just as you are with CFL for flower.

After this grow i think i will add a T5 floro with LED on the other side of my cabinet and do a test between LEDs used as side lights vs T5 used as sidelite and see what happens.

I'm with you in that so far the LED set-up fits me perfect for what i need.

 

[HealingKronic]

wow, no questions in my mind about LED anymore...

 

[Scooby_Snacks]

This is my first real grow. I couldn't be happier with the LED setup. I supplement with a pr. of 65W=300W flowering bulbs and added a small fan to the mix. Total watts consumed is 286. Everything runs cool and quiet. I'm sure a bigger, better light source would yield more, but in my particular case that's not a priority. For me, it fits the bill perfectly.

Mr. G first nice looking plant.
The point I was trying to make is why would you spend $450 (LED) + $25? - $40? (cfl sidelighting) to get that when you could spend $70 - $90 and get this?

We each have 1 plant to compare and it's both our first grows. You've spent almost 5x as much for your set up, for that plant. What's the extra money spend for? There's about 100w of actual usage on mine of cfl only.

I've got 3 of those units man so no offense, just arguing, trying to find a reason to spend the extra $$.

Well i'm just getting into my 1st as well (indoor) and under LED and my opinion is this so far: Either use other LED's as sidelites or augment just as you are with CFL for flower.

After this grow i think i will add a T5 floro with LED on the other side of my cabinet and do a test between LEDs used as side lights vs T5 used as sidelite and see what happens.

I'm with you in that so far the LED set-up fits me perfect for what i need.

eagle1, I'd love to see a comparison of that!

 

[Bolivar]

wow, no questions in my mind about LED anymore...

Mine either. I'm sticking with HID for now.

 

[Mr G]

Mr. G first nice looking plant.
The point I was trying to make is why would you spend $450 (LED) + $25? - $40? (cfl sidelighting) to get that when you could spend $70 - $90 and get this?

We each have 1 plant to compare and it's both our first grows. You've spent almost 5x as much for your set up, for that plant. What's the extra money spend for? There's about 100w of actual usage on mine of cfl only.

I've got 3 of those units man so no offense, just arguing, trying to find a reason to spend the extra $$.

I should have mentioned this is an autoflower and the LED was added to the CFL's just 16 days ago. My post wasn't intended as a rebuttal to your experience, just describing my experience in relation to my personal expectations. Your plant looks nice as well. Just my personal experience, I'm liking the LED so far.

 

[Keith Lake]

This is a great discussion friends, thanks for the civility

I think the value proposition is either found or lost in the grams/watt ratio that is achievable.

If the ratio is similar to HPS, then I'd conceed that LEDs are probably best for stealth, low heat closet type grows.

If the ratio exceeds HPS, there's a huge value in my view.

Say for example you could get 1.2 g/watt LED and 1 g/watt HPS. That extra 20% is worth $270 per grow per 126 watt light (assumes $300/oz value). That puts the payback at only 1 grow cycle - right?

This in no way negates the reality that still need to have the start up funding to aqcuire the lights.

And of course we need to see more of these LED journals finish up so we can start getting a larger sample of what is possible. Ideally, we'll see some 2nd and 3rd journals so the learning curve will be factored out.

Just my personal opinion

For me, at this point the cost of LEDs is the deal-breaker. Two 126s for $850 vs. 1 600W HID for quite a bit less is no contest. I can afford an air-conditioner for my tent for less than I'd pay for equivalent LEDs to replace my HID. And get better yield in the bargain...

 

[Eagle1]

Mine isn't in flower yet, but i am using a 63w as sidelite. I just perfromed a "procedure" on mine and took her from LST to upright and doubled my growth in less than a week. I do not think i could've done that without carefully using the sidelight as a guide and turning the plant towards and away from it as needed.

Check out Lil Mama to see what i mean.

 

[Scooby_Snacks]

I should have mentioned this is an autoflower and the LED was added to the CFL's just 16 days ago. My post wasn't intended as a rebuttal to your experience, just describing my experience in relation to my personal expectations. Your plant looks nice as well. Just my personal experience, I'm liking the LED so far.

Ah, that would make just a little difference. All good bro.

I like LED as well. I'm just trying to justify the cost involved. I didn't expect the results of the cfl to be as good as they appear to be, and the LED's I expected more out of.

This is a great discussion friends, thanks for the civility

I think the value proposition is either found or lost in the grams/watt ratio that is achievable.

If the ratio is similar to HPS, then I'd conceed that LEDs are probably best for stealth, low heat closet type grows.

If the ratio exceeds HPS, there's a huge value in my view.

Say for example you could get 1.2 g/watt LED and 1 g/watt HPS. That extra 20% is worth $270 per grow per 126 watt light (assumes $300/oz value). That puts the payback at only 1 grow cycle - right?

This in no way negates the reality that still need to have the start up funding to aqcuire the lights.

And of course we need to see more of these LED journals finish up so we can start getting a larger sample of what is possible. Ideally, we'll see some 2nd and 3rd journals so the learning curve will be factored out.

Just my personal opinion

I've been thinking about your question. I think your thinking is sound, I just think your numbers are off. Here's how I see it. We'll use this grow for the example with a few changes for ease of math.

1. add +1 - 126w. make yield 1.5g/w for the LED. 504w vs. 1000w

LED - 4@$450 = $1800 initial cost
HPS - $700? high side??? bulb, dig balast, hood??
I'll use 4 harvests for each year.

LED - 4 x 126w = 504w @ 1.5g/w x 4(harvests) = 3024g year
HPS - 1000w @ 1g/w x 4 = 4000g

LED = $0.59 per gram
HPS = $0.17 per gram

but your using 1/2 the electric (I'll figure it at using 60% to account for fans)
I've seen people say a 1000w will increase their power bill about $60-$80 a month. LED using 60% less is about $24 - $32. So add +$45/month for power @12 = $540.

So HPS goes up to $0.31 per gram being less costly per gram while yielding you a little more than 1 LED harvest.

Let's throw cfl in the mix for people like me who won't grow with HPS. While not as cool as LED no where near the heat of HPS.

cfl's - 2 - 300w hoods w/ flower and veg bulbs. $700

CFL - 2 x 300w = 600w @ .75/w x 4(harvests) = 1800g year

For the sake of argument let's also throw up numbers for LED @ 2g/w

CFL - $0.38888 per gram
LED = $0.59 per gram @ 1.5 g/w and $0.446 @ 2g/w
HPS = $0.31 per gram

Expected yields -
cfl - 1800g / year
LED - 3024g / year @ 1.5g and 4032 @ 2g/w
HPS - 4000g / year

Still yielding less for more cost. Unless someone can show they can pull 1.5+ it's actually more expensive than cfl's while yielding you only about 200g +/- a year.

Now Soniq where I think your argument comes in more is if you compare watts for watts but HPS than loses it's power disadvantage and only having heat as the disadvantage.

Change the LED numbers above to reflect:
LED - 8@$450 = $3600 initial cost
LED - 8 x 126w = 1008w @ 1.5g/w x 4(harvests) = 6048g year
8 x 126w = 1008w @ 2g/w x 4(harvests) = 8064g year

I didn't do much math last post so I'm a little surprised my guess of 1.6 or more was as close as it was. You'd actually have to pull more than you would with HPS as an actual yield or be buying or selling retail to supplement your stash for the retail cost to come into play BUT .... IF someone could pull 1.5g/w and decided to use the same watts that your getting an extra 2 harvests a year. 2048g / 27g/oz = 75.85 oz @ $300 (conservative) = $22,755. Lots and LOTS of if's in that line of reasoning right now with the results being shown though.

Now if a rank amateur can pull 1g/w or a little more. Well .. their is an entire industry dedicated to fancy expensive wine openers because people can't use a $2 corkscrew correctly.

 

[Bolivar]

LED - 4 x 126w = 504w @ 1.5g/w x 4(harvests) = 3024g year
HPS - 1000w @ 1g/w x 4 = 4000g

That's not a valid comparison. LED yield is less than HPS, not 1 1/2 times better... That's been the case in every single comparison grow I've seen or heard of.

 

[Keith Lake]

Great elaboration Scooby.

To clarify I'm thinking in terms of equal watt comparisons at this stage. Then it's the purchase price of the light amortized over the value of the delta g/w (if there is one).

The fun part of this process for me will be seeing all the numbers come in.

Nothing trumps data

 

[Keith Lake]

That's not a valid comparison. LED yield is less than HPS, not 1 1/2 times better... That's been the case in every single comparison grow I've seen or heard of.

Personally, I just haven't seen enough finishes yet.

A lot are starting to finish up around now though

 

[Bolivar]

Personally, I just haven't seen enough finishes yet.

A lot are starting to finish up around now though

It's certainly arguable just how many results would be conclusive, but have you seen any LED grows get over a gram a watt?

 

[IrishBoy]

A let down is more like it...LOL...From sheer coverage capacity this was no contest from the begining. Looking at the grows currently ongoing, like yours WB I'm not sure how much better results we can get since I happen to think that these plants looked further along then what you guys have going for the same period.Most of us seem to have about the same growing experience.

So there's still one more HPS plant to dry but here are some numbers.....LED = 329 grams......HPS = 939 grams +

wow bro that sucks! thats not even close, and one cant say that ur not an experience grower, because in this test it dosent matter because its going heads up with a HID light, so if you were lacking it would also be the same with the HID and all plants would suffer. i don't know if that makes since?
i have seen a few of these grows and i will say i am not impressed. i can see that your leds didn't even come close to HID as claimed. maybe watt for watt? but why spend all that money and latter on down the road theirs going to be the new best one and so on. i for one dont care if i have to buy bulbs or spend more on electricity because the yield you get from HID makes up for more then that.
this is just my opion.

dont get me wrong i understand some cant use HID. and leds are the best option for them. this is why i am doing this side x side test to show others witch leds are better then the others. and for i can see with my own eyes.

 

[Scooby_Snacks]

That's not a valid comparison. LED yield is less than HPS, not 1 1/2 times better... That's been the case in every single comparison grow I've seen or heard of.

Bolivar, I was responding to this part of Soniqs post:

Say for example you could get 1.2 g/watt LED and 1 g/watt HPS. That extra 20% is worth $270 per grow per 126 watt light (assumes $300/oz value). That puts the payback at only 1 grow cycle - right?

I said OK forget about what is you get +.2g/w more than anyone's gotten yet, let's make it interesting and give LED a +.5g/w advantage over what anyone's seen done (and much much less than the 3.15g/w which = 400wHPS comparison made by the manufacturer). Even giving it that advantage, in my opinion, the numbers still don't add up,yet.

Personally, I just haven't seen enough finishes yet.

A lot are starting to finish up around now though

I agree jury is still out. I think we're getting closer to answering what would an acceptable result would be. Now we just have to see if we get close to it. I've got about a dozen + more that'll be done in the next 8-10 weeks. We should see a pattern by than.

It's certainly arguable just how many results would be conclusive, but have you seen any LED grows get over a gram a watt?

In all fairness to LED Bolivar, the question not too long ago used to be "Can you get good smoke-able bud with LED". Let's see what people can do on 2nd and 3rd runs.

 

[Bolivar]

Bolivar, I was responding to this part of Soniqs post:



I said OK forget about what is you get +.2g/w more than anyone's gotten yet, let's make it interesting and give LED a +.5g/w advantage over what anyone's seen done (and much much less than the 3.15g/w which = 400wHPS comparison made by the manufacturer). Even giving it that advantage, in my opinion, the numbers still don't add up,yet.



I agree jury is still out. I think we're getting closer to answering what would an acceptable result would be. Now we just have to see if we get close to it. I've got about a dozen + more that'll be done in the next 8-10 weeks. We should see a pattern by than.



In all fairness to LED Bolivar, the question not too long ago used to be "Can you get good smoke-able bud with LED". Let's see what people can do on 2nd and 3rd runs.

Yep, I'm still watching the LED grows with an open mind.

But that doesn't mean I'm ignoring the results so far...

 

[Keith Lake]

I'm enjoying the discussion my friends, even if we are in hypothetical-ville with the ratios.

I am very interested in the smoke report as well

Other than sfhaze's journal, I haven't seen any LED journals finish except for this one.

I'm in a bit of a sticky icky position here, because I want to ask which ones you've seen but I'll shoot myself in the foot if they're offsite references, which are against the guidelines to refer to