The Gee Spot - You Finally Found It

[Keffka]

@Gee64 @Azimuth and other worm farmers. When adding/using newspaper, do you guys add/use pages with color photos? It’s become increasingly difficult to find newspapers with just black and white

 

[Azimuth]

@Gee64 @Azimuth and other worm farmers. When adding/using newspaper, do you guys add/use pages with color photos? It’s become increasingly difficult to find newspapers with just black and white

The inks used, as long as it's not glossy paper, have mostly all changed over to soy-based inks.

Worm bin approved.

 

[Azimuth]

Thats where I'm taking you with this one plant. The one in the 1 litre would be better, but the one in flower will do too. Or try 1 of each

Why would the 1L one be better?

I am, however, planning to bring the others along for the ride.

 

[Gee64]

Why would the 1L one be better?

I am, however, planning to bring the others along for the ride.

To build brix before flower. Lets build dump trucks.

 

[Azimuth]

So i checked multiple places in several containers and got wildly different readings including dry patches which surprised me.

So, if I'm looking for about a 5 on the meter to trigger the flush, what pot level do I want that reading at?

If this is more of a wet/dry thing I'd imagine a bottom reading, though I've hear LOS is better with constant moisture so that would be more of a mid pot height one.

 

[Gee64]

So i checked multiple places in several containers and got wildly different readings including dry patches which surprised me.

So, if I'm looking for about a 5 on the meter to trigger the flush, what pot level do I want that reading at?

If this is more of a wet/dry thing I'd imagine a bottom reading, though I've hear LOS is better with constant moisture so that would be more of a mid pot height one.

Flush immediately to homogenize that soil, get it equally wet and it lets calcium mix with magnesium properly.

We don't want to start this process until your soil is evenly wet, then we let it dry down, or add tea and let it dry down.

Then you start the 5 point check and when it says it's time to water, you start.

Right now we need to fix the soil 1st. So drench away. Just so you know, I don't ever tea without a pot drench 1st.

Pretty educational hey? who knew that things were different all over in there?

Things just got interesting

 

[Gee64]

Flush immediately to homogenize that soil, get it equally wet and it lets calcium mix with magnesium properly.

We don't want to start this process until your soil is evenly wet, then we let it dry down, or add tea and let it dry down.

Then you start the 5 point check and when it says it's time to water, you start.

Right now we need to fix the soil 1st. So drench away. Just so you know, I don't ever tea without a pot drench 1st.

Pretty educational hey? who knew that things were different all over in there?

Things just got interesting

Not bad for a $2 tool hey?

 

[Gee64]

@Gee64 @Azimuth and other worm farmers. When adding/using newspaper, do you guys add/use pages with color photos? It’s become increasingly difficult to find newspapers with just black and white

I don't use newspaper.

 

[Azimuth]

I don't use newspaper.

Nor do i.

 

[SmokingWings]

There was discussion on this thread or one similar about using cardboard as a blanket or barrier over worm beds. My understanding is that the companies making cardboard are not only including recycled cardboard boxes but are now tossing in a percentage of used newsprint. The market for boxes, etc has gotten so large since the increase in shopping from home that the manufacturers cannot keep up.

The inks used, as long as it's not glossy paper, have mostly all changed over to soy-based inks.

I had a buddy who worked for one of the major Detroit newspapers until the early 90s in their printing plant before opening his own printing business. My impression from what he said about the inks he used in the shop and what was in the newspaper printing shops was that it was going to be all soy based, including for colors in newspapers and the non-glossy inserts, before the turn of the centuries.

Glossy paper magazines are still using some inks that have an oil. The numbers are dropping as the ink companies can come up with new formulas that eliminate the petroleum oils and substitute soybean oils and still get acceptable drying times.

I use newspaper and/or cardboard as a layer over the soil when I am maintaining the pathways through my outdoor gardens. Decomposition within one growing season, even faster if it rains often enough to keep the paper moist.

 

[Keffka]

There was discussion on this thread or one similar about using cardboard as a blanket or barrier over worm beds. My understanding is that the companies making cardboard are not only including recycled cardboard boxes but are now tossing in a percentage of used newsprint. The market for boxes, etc has gotten so large since the increase in shopping from home that the manufacturers cannot keep up.


I had a buddy who worked for one of the major Detroit newspapers until the early 90s in their printing plant before opening his own printing business. My impression from what he said about the inks he used in the shop and what was in the newspaper printing shops was that it was going to be all soy based, including for colors in newspapers and the non-glossy inserts, before the turn of the centuries.

Glossy paper magazines are still using some inks that have an oil. The numbers are dropping as the ink companies can come up with new formulas that eliminate the petroleum oils and substitute soybean oils and still get acceptable drying times.

I use newspaper and/or cardboard as a layer over the soil when I am maintaining the pathways through my outdoor gardens. Decomposition within one growing season, even faster if it rains often enough to keep the paper moist.

I have no choice in my bin. Newspaper must go across the top to lock in moisture or the worms retreat to the bottom of the bin and don’t process the top layers. The room they’re in is warm and most often dry. While it’s annoying for moisture retention it’s really a boon for worm binning and soil cooking. Consistently 70-80F makes it an almost perfect room.

The other aspect is, I still don’t have leachate coming out of my bin. The entire bin is perfect moisture according to my meter. I even pulled up all the bedding last night and fluffed it all out, there was plenty of moisture throughout. Still no leachate though. However, from my reading, this isn’t a deal breaker. If anything, it means I have almost the perfect balance. Just moist enough for vigorous action and reproduction, but not so moist Im leaching nutrients out.

I assume though that once I have many more worms working and processing I will start seeing it just through sheer volume of processing.

 

[Gee64]

I have no choice in my bin. Newspaper must go across the top to lock in moisture or the worms retreat to the bottom of the bin and don’t process the top layers. The room they’re in is warm and most often dry. While it’s annoying for moisture retention it’s really a boon for worm binning and soil cooking. Consistently 70-80F makes it an almost perfect room.

The other aspect is, I still don’t have leachate coming out of my bin. The entire bin is perfect moisture according to my meter. I even pulled up all the bedding last night and fluffed it all out, there was plenty of moisture throughout. Still no leachate though. However, from my reading, this isn’t a deal breaker. If anything, it means I have almost the perfect balance. Just moist enough for vigorous action and reproduction, but not so moist Im leaching nutrients out.

I assume though that once I have many more worms working and processing I will start seeing it just through sheer volume of processing.

I rarely ever get leachate. Scraps contain a lot of water. It's tough in the beginning until you get at least 2 trays full. If you need cardboard or newspaper then by all means use it.

I would buy a roll of plain news print or be particular on cardboard, or use the worm blanket, but raw coco, and i prefer canna brand organic, is better. Just not free.

It has a carbon value of about 70 and it's harmonious to whats in your soil so flux is avoided.

Avoid inks, you don't know what you are getting, and plant based or not, they are treated to not rot, and we want rot.

When your worm population is large enough that you can completely fill the 3rd tray all at once, cap it with coco or used soil. I prefer used soil somewhere in each tray for numerous reasons, but for supplying the grit is the main reason. It has semi decomposed oyster shell in it.

If in doubt Keff, use the worm blanket. If the edges of the top tray go dry, spray it. If its all too dry use more scraps.

 

[Keffka]

I rarely ever get leachate. Scraps contain a lot of water. It's tough in the beginning until you get at least 2 trays full. If you need cardboard or newspaper then by all means use it.

I would buy a roll of plain news print or be particular on cardboard, or use the worm blanket, but raw coco, and i prefer canna brand organic, is better. Just not free.

It has a carbon value of about 70 and it's harmonious to whats in your soil so flux is avoided.

Avoid inks, you don't know what you are getting, and plant based or not, they are treated to not rot, and we want rot.

When your worm population is large enough that you can completely fill the 3rd tray all at once, cap it with coco or used soil. I prefer used soil somewhere in each tray for numerous reasons, but for supplying the grit is the main reason. It has semi decomposed oyster shell in it.

If in doubt Keff, use the worm blanket. If the edges of the top tray go dry, spray it. If its all too dry use more scraps.

Yep, establishing a bin leaves one in an awkward position. I don’t have enough worms to be able to put in enough scraps to create enough moisture. I don’t have enough worms to fill enough bins to create a cycle yet. I assumed the first 6 months would be a push and pull while I wait for the worms to populate anyway.

Their numbers are increasing rapidly though so we’ll get there soon enough.

 

[Azimuth]

In favorable conditions they'll double every three months or so.

And you don't want leachate. It can be heavy in salts and because it hasn't all necessarily gone through the gut of a worm which kills many pathogens, it's not as good as a worm casting tea.

I toss mine on non-consumable plants as I don't want to ingest any of it. Plants love it though.

 

[Keffka]

And you don't want leachate

I find this interesting as the majority of reading I’ve done on worm binning, including Revs 3rd book mention leachate like it’s a forgone conclusion of worming. They go so far as to give you instructions and ratios to incorporate the leachate into your garden alongside the casting as its own self contained fert program.

Personally the idea of leachate didnt sound right to me because half the places couldn’t even agree with what it actually was. Some said worm urine, some said discharge, but from what I understand of worm biology, neither of these are true, and the most likely explanation for leachate is simply too much water for the medium. Too much water for the medium means something is wrong which means leachate is a sign something is unbalanced.

 

[Azimuth]

Flush immediately to homogenize that soil, get it equally wet and it lets calcium mix with magnesium properly.

Ok. The mini-flush is done. Probably a day late as I had some droop.

What kind of reactions should I be looking for in the coming days?

 

[Azimuth]

but from what I understand of worm biology, neither of these are true, and the most likely explanation for leachate is simply too much water for the medium. Too much water for the medium means something is wrong which means leachate is a sign something is unbalanced.

Bingo.

I know some worm farmers pour water through their bins and collect the runoff.

No thank you...

 

[Gee64]

Ok. The mini-flush is done. Probably a day late as I had some droop.

What kind of reactions should I be looking for in the coming days?

You should hopefully see a bit of overall vigor above what you are used to, we haven't really done much yet other than ensure your soil is properly hydrated throughout the pot. So I have a few questions.

What size pots in what stage did you root drench?

Do you have a tea brewing or are you planning on that, and if so when will you use it?

Are the reservoirs currently full, empty, or somewhere in between?

Are they currently mulched?

When is your next topdressing or crumble due and for which plants in which stage?

Use the water stick numerous times every day on every plant in various locations. As the plants grow things can change under the soil.

When the water stick says they need watering, use your normal amount that you think is appropriate and watch if any comes out the overflow hole, or how deep it fills the res. The 1st thing you need to do is to determine if your old practices were over watering, under watering, or in the ball park.

Your belief that you have heard that LOS likes it moister likely came from me in the past, but that doesn't mean wet, it means sauna.

Thats wetter than most conventional waterers, but far drier than most sippers. 5 on the water stick. Dead center. Thats your target.

Obviously after watering they will be wet, but 12 hours later where are they? if they are over a 6 you over watered. And by that I don't mean now as you just flooded them, I mean moving forward when you water them next.

After 2 dry downs and waterings we will take a brix reading looking at both brix and the state of your calcium line.

So when you top water, the gentler and evener you can water really makes a difference. A small watering can with a long spout that has a small hole works well, as does a scoop style measuring cup. Water about a third of it in gently across the entire surface, wait at least 60 seconds, and then gently water the last two thirds in.

If the surface dries between waterings, break it up with your finger tips. It will likely be a bit crusty the 1st time you dry down, thats normal. What isn't good is if it crusts over every time it dries, so keep an eye for that.

Make note of how much you water every time you water starting with your next watering

Every time we dry them down you "could" be closer to seeing some stress as the get used to the new environment. Keep an eye for that, especially on the ones in flower.

If it takes 10-14 days to reprogram them that can hurt yield, but I think your going to see acceleration. Probably a brighter green too.

Last question... What does the water stick read right now, and does it read within 1 point across the whole pot when you test various spots at the same level of depth?


Obviously the bottom will be wetter, what I mean is does the gradient stay even across the pot as it gets wetter towards the bottom.

Sometimes you need to do a 2nd root drench, thats what we are checking for.

So if you poke the probe in at 5 different places, push it in about 30% of the depth and let it sit for about 10 seconds, then push it down to about 60% depth, let it sit for 10 seconds, then 90% deep and 10 seconds. Then go test the next spot.

You get a more accurate reading after about 10 seconds. You will see what I mean, the needle creeps for a few seconds until it settles.

 

[Azimuth]

So I have a few questions.

Ok, that's more than a few. That's a lot!

What size pots in what stage did you root drench?

Various. 2 Gallon on day 3 after flip, 3 1L (1. next plant up, 2. old CBD mother destined for the worm bin and 3. its replacement) and 1 2L (old mother trying to revive it)

Do you have a tea brewing or are you planning on that, and if so when will you use it?

I don't. You mentioned a two day brew so I was planning on starting it yesterday but then you said go ahead and start the flush so just did it with tap water set out for a few days.

For the brew, first day is with kelp meal, and molasses I think you said. I have kelp JLF which is already broken down so can I get away with just a 24 hour brew?

Are the reservoirs currently full, empty, or somewhere in between?

Mostly empty. I'm going to change the SIP design for my next plant up which I'll detail in a subsequent post.

Are they currently mulched?

Yes, mostly compost with a bit of ALM (Aged Leaf Mold)

When is your next topdressing or crumble due and for which plants in which stage?

I do weekly on Saturday's, a combination of 1t/G of a combination of my crumbles (comfrey, nettle, neem, karanja, dried flower and alfalfa) and 2t/G of worm castings. I usually mist them in but now I'll start drenching them in.

Use the water stick numerous times every day on every plant in various locations. As the plants grow things can change under the soil.

I assume the water stick becomes a permanent part of the process? Like you still use it regularly, or just until you get a feel for pot weight?

I ask because the hydroton in the pots makes it a challenge to insert it (30% hydroton in mix).

If so, I can see the advantage of perlite.

When the water stick says they need watering, use your normal amount that you think is appropriate and watch if any comes out the overflow hole, or how deep it fills the res. The 1st thing you need to do is to determine if your old practices were over watering, under watering, or in the ball park.

I think we've pretty well determined over-watering/too wet. Nice looking plants without typicall overwater droop, but brix don't lie.

My old watering practices were essentially replacing what was consumed over the prior two days. But I think the larger issue was the significant water bank held in the soil and the perched water table which I think can be addressed with a small tweak. I have a mix that's been cooking for 6-8 weeks in my current design that I think I'll up end and try the new design to see how it works as we work things out..

Your belief that you have heard that LOS likes it moister likely came from me in the past, but that doesn't mean wet, it means sauna.

You and others. Nunya comes to mind.

After 2 dry downs and waterings we will take a brix reading looking at both brix and the state of your calcium line.

Sounds like a plan.

So when you top water, the gentler and evener you can water really makes a difference. A small watering can with a long spout that has a small hole works well, as does a scoop style measuring cup. Water about a third of it in gently across the entire surface, wait at least 60 seconds, and then gently water the last two thirds in.

Sounds like a lot more effort than pouring water down the fill tube.

Make note of how much you water every time you water starting with your next watering

I keep a log for my flowering plants and the one heading to flower, but I can expand that to include the others.

Every time we dry them down you "could" be closer to seeing some stress as the get used to the new environment. Keep an eye for that, especially on the ones in flower.

I think the new one in flower may be a male, but should know in about a week. The other one is close enough to harvest that it shouldn't be affected by pollen and the next one up won't be ready for a while so even if it is a male I'll probably keep it around for a while and see if I can get some pollen out of it so I'm happy enough using it as a tester for the process.

Last question... What does the water stick read right now, and does it read within 1 point across the whole pot when you test various spots at the same level of depth?


Obviously the bottom will be wetter, what I mean is does the gradient stay even across the pot as it gets wetter towards the bottom.

Sometimes you need to do a 2nd root drench, thats what we are checking for.

So if you poke the probe in at 5 different places, push it in about 30% of the depth and let it sit for about 10 seconds, then push it down to about 60% depth, let it sit for 10 seconds, then 90% deep and 10 seconds. Then go test the next spot.

Phew.

I'll check tonight at lights on, and I'll poke around and see what I see.

I really appreciate you walking me through this.

 

[Keffka]

Bingo.

I know some worm farmers pour water through their bins and collect the runoff.

No thank you...

That sounds like some more bro science. I swear growing/gardening/farming is filled with twice as much voodoo nonsense as it is fact based approaches.

I blame big NPK for a lot of it (not all of it as obviously there are plenty of us who know better). They waged an aggressive campaign to make sure people truly believed their salt based method was the best, and you didn’t need to bother knowing what was actually happening in the dirt because you’re growing big plants. Humans eat that crap up. No need to understand what or why, or even how, as long as it’s as easy as following an instruction label