They seem happy - But are they yellow?

[Kalomessimeri]

Haven't tried to do this in years, already made mistakes but started reading reading reading and made some adjustments. I live in the south, we've already had warm days and I want to try and take advantage of our great big sun before trying this indoors. These are just some old bag seeds for practice, they came from something that was pretty nice. I had several in clay pots that were too big resulting in soil that stayed wet and steamed roots. Switched to Solo cups with plenty of holes and everybody is much happier. While they're young it's just small amounts of water, I didn't read about vermiculite until after starting but I'll have better-prepared soil when we move into larger plastic containers. I use tap water that sits for several hours before using, our pH is consistently 7.0. Soil is Organic Miracle Grow - I know, I know, but it's what I can afford and some people say they've had good results with proper management.

My big question: do they look yellow to you? They act happy but they seem sort of lime green, might just be me being paranoid. I read to not start nutes for several weeks, but I wonder if they'd like a little nitrogen? The one in the bottom pic far left with rounded leaves survived a clay pot but got leggy and fell over in the heat - I buried the stem and it seems to be coming out of shock and growing. I'm actually having a lot of fun and hope this works out. Any advice is appreciated++

 

[Kalomessimeri]

Also I'm noticing online debates vermiculite vs. pearlite, apparently vermiculite is better at holding water but isn't it the holding of air that we're after?

 

[Major PITA]

They do look a little yellow (to me). I wouldn't do anything to change it...yet.
Vermiculite holds more water and has a much higher CEC. Perlite is for aeration/lightening soil. Both can be useful tools.
I don't like time release fert's built into soil. You lose control over what and when the plants get their goodies. If you want to go that route, a cheaper and better solution is Osmocote+ with a high porosity soilless base, like HP Promix or Sunshine #4.

 

[daTenshi]

Honestly they look fine for me for babies grown outside. I have noticed the leaves seem a little pale when they only had natural light, and a darker green indoors. Now I can't explain why that is but as long as the cotyledon is still green and healthy and it's feeding the baby girls I don't think there is a cause for concern. So far the babies started outside and only exposed to natural light always look a lighter shade of green.

 

[Kalomessimeri]

Appreciate++ the input. I'm realizing MG soil is a bad choice, I'll start pricing alternatives and see if there's something reasonable out there. Years ago the rumor was switching soils at transplant made them unhappy but I'm not really reading much of that on the forums. For now I'll leave then alone - that's something I read a lot, just leave them the hell alone. They grew just fine for a very long time before humans got the compulsion to mess with them.

 

[Kalomessimeri]

We have liftoff, I really hate this soil

Comparing yesterday with today, I've not adjusted colors or contrast. Photos taken about the same time of day however yesterday the sky was clear and blue and today it's hazy. We have a terrible problem with pollen and other airborne particulates which would be a good reason I need these plants to work.

This morning they looked really yellow, I think the soil has remained too moist and they've gotten too many nutes and are now having trouble taking up nitrogen and making chlorophyll. But I'm certainly no expert. Just the same, MG soil will never come in this house again.

 

[Ofis]

Man those look nice other than the mentioned yellowing. Sure, things might sort themselves out. But why make your plants deal with adverse situations? I'd get em out of that soil because it might be too hot for seedlings, or at least those particular seedlings/genetics. And like you say, it not drying out the way it should either.

Get em into some nice nute-free, aerated soil that drains well and dries out properly. I like Fox Farms soils with about 25% of the final mixture being added aeration in the Ocean Forest & Happy Frog, and about 40% in the Planting Mix. For aeration use petlite and not rice hulls. Rice hulls break down 80% after 6 months and I just read tonight that they raise the pH level of the soil. I also think rice hulls hold moisture, unlike perlite that doesn't absorb water.

I recently removed some days old seedlings from undesirable soil and into good soil. Think it was too hot because it killed 10 of 14 germinated seeds with tails and was different than my usual starter soil (kicks himself in the ass).

Usually my sprouts are above soil the next day after planting germed seeds (about 24 hours or so) but it took 2 days for 2 of em to sprout and another 2 days for the other 2 to sprout. Only 4 of 14 and they didn't look right. Then I figured out the problem must be the soil burning up my precious genetics, so got em out of that shit ASAP. They sprouted on 2/17 and 2/19 and were transplanted on 2/20.

2 one day old and 2 three day old plants were successfully transplanted into new soil. One at a time, I removed each plant from the solo cup like a transplant and gently crumbled the soil away from the roots. Dunked the plant in some fresh pH'ed water at about 75 degrees to wash off the roots. Then loaded the solo cup with new soil to about where the bottom of the roots was gonna be, held the plant in place and loaded the cup with soil around the plant the rest of the way with the other hand. When done transplanting I watered em into the new soil. They responded well and just went into 5 quart containers the other day on 3/19.

Oh yeah, about your rocket ship ready to lift off, you might have to lift off that seed shell. I've done it before and on the second day of sprout I had to help one of those 4 sprouts out of the shell, like you need to do with that stubborn seed shell ready to kill that seedling. I took 2 small knife blades and grabbed the shell with them and spread the shell apart. It fell right off and that plant is doing fine. Watched a sprout die once after about 4 days (mighta been 5 or 6) because I didn't know to remove the shell and it never fell off on it's own. Most times the shells fall off while the plant works it's way through the soil and stays under the soil. Now if they rise above the soil with the shell still on them and it doesn't fall off by about 30 hours from sprout, I take em off. A pair of hemostats helps too.

Good luck and hope you figure it out so you can get back to mean green instead of mellow yellow.

EDITED to add this watering thread:
I just found the best watering thread The Proper Way to Water a Potted Plant in a thread about watering seedlings. Give it a quick look. It'll refresh your memory and give you some new info too. Wish I'd found this kind of info years back.

 

[Kalomessimeri]

I know what people are thinking "oh geez he's not going to take pictures every single flippin' day is he" -- what a grow journal that would be "here watch me kill my plants" lol

Liftoff is mad at me today, indoor fetch with one of the dogs got too enthusiastic last night and boom all over the floor. At least it wasn't one of the plants I actually like, Liftoff was the last to sprout and it was shocking when it did since the original seed looked so bad. I'll talk nice to it, it'll be fine.

Absolutely agree Ofis, I was online late last night comparing Fox Farms Ocean Forest with Lady Bug Vortex. Vortex was originally made in happy town and is so typically environmentally correct, they won't use peat because the world's peat bogs are endangered - oh give me a break, I just want soil dammit. Ocean Forest has the ingredients custom soil mixers seem to prefer, it must stink to high heaven but sacrifices must be made for my growing children. And thanks for the watering link, I'd happened upon that the day I joined and the information can't be beat.

They're noticeably bigger today, new sets of leaves emerging but still yellow. I don't suppose it could be some of that old time Colombian Gold, I seem to recall the original product was pretty gold but I thought there was a little green as well. If I can't remember it must have been good.

 

[Kalomessimeri]

Yesterday Liftoff got too dry in the sun and laid right down and shriveled up. Of course I thought the worst, but a little H2O worked its magic - you can see things are better today. Using crappy soil without proper aeration means I have to walk a fine line between too wet and too dry.

The rest of them seem to be doing fine as well. I think the yellowish tint is natural for this strain, they don't appear to be having trouble doing much of anything.

Maybe I should move all this to the grow journal section. Can a newbie have a grow journal?
.

 

[Major PITA]

Maybe I should move all this to the grow journal section. Can a newbie have a grow journal?

Yes. You can ... and you should!

 

[Sejd2131]

What type of soil are you using. It looks like regular dirt. Not very good imho..I use a 80/20 potting soil with perlite and find it very helpful in making the soil light and airy....

 

[Kalomessimeri]

What type of soil are you using. It looks like regular dirt. Not very good imho..I use a 80/20 potting soil with perlite and find it very helpful in making the soil light and airy....

I'm using the crappiest soil I could find, Miracle No "organic". I'm just practicing with bag seeds before spending money, didn't read about soil theory until after these were started. When I transplant to gallon containers I'll use Fox Farms Ocean Harvest and add extra perlite, in the meantime I think they'll be fine. Thanks++ for the feedback.

 

[Kalomessimeri]

Yes. You can ... and you should!

Guess I could just duplicate everything posted so far over there. "Problems" seemed the place to be since I thought they were going to get sick. Watch, I'll get everything posted and they'll all die lol

 

[Sejd2131]

Those babies can grow and yield you a great crop. Buy some nutes, FF soil and 3-5 gallon pots and you`ll reward yourself.. We all make mistakes along the way, its how we learn and share....

 

[Kalomessimeri]

Happy family togetherness - I know it's way too early to tell but the two larger plants on the right have tiny pre-flowers that look more female than male. But we'll see.

Still stunted is about a week older than Please be a couple of females. You'll recall it began life in a clay pot that was way too big, soil stayed way too wet, Still stunted got leggy then got steamed (literally) and fell over in the heat. Someone on another forum said to just bury the stem and it'll come back. I did and it did and here we all are.

I'll get this duplicated in the grow journal section this weekend. Hopefully.

 

[Kalomessimeri]

I need to ask for advice from you knowledgeable folks. Photos taken yesterday, problem with pale green leaves is progressing to yellow. I think the biggest plants are about 12 to 14 days old (I'm a bad grower, I didn't write it down) and yesterday I gave them the minimal amount of water-soluble 12-4-8. I guess they look slightly greener today but not much. I'm not sure how long it takes for the nitrogen to take effect but I thought it was faster than this.

I read about people using stronger nutes like 20-20-20 so I guess I'm not giving them enough nitrogen phosphorus and potassium? Is Jack's Classic a good brand?

You can't just mix 12-4-8 double strength to make 24-8-16 can you? Or apply the 12-4-8 every week rather than every two weeks?

Money is a problem, it's going to be a week or two before I can drive 60 miles to pick up a bag of Fox Farms Ocean Forest and get them out of this worthless Miracle-no pseudo-organic excuse for soil. Honestly I thought about just going in the backyard and digging up some dirt and planting them in that. I have a potted Japanese Maple I was going to partially re-soil for the Summer with the rest of this MG soil but now I don't want to fuck up the tree so I'm just going to throw the crap in the trash. Worthless Miracle Grow, you're fucking worthless.

I just took another look, they're definitely greener but still not the deep rich green I see in photos.

 

[Major PITA]

'N' moves quick. You should see a difference in a day with plants that small.
Yes - 2X 12-4-8 is the same as 24-8-16. But plants as young as yours (2 weeks) do not need anything, much less heavy feeding.

MG isn't good soil, but I'm stumped as to why it won't get them started for you OK. I keep coming back to PH and watering technique. They look dry in the pictures which is actually a good thing. Many new growers drown small plants. Don't put them in dirt from your backyard. If you can afford to cull one, I'd experiment with it. Add some fert's if you want, or knock it our of its cup and see how the roots are doing and how dry it is at the bottom. You can put it right back in if the rootball has developed a bit.

I get that $$$ is tight, but if you are going to play with nute's, the best investment you can make is in a PPM/EC meter. I'd get a PH meter, too, but not the type you stick in soil. I've had good luck with the moderately priced pen style. You do need to calibrate them, but I've had mine for 2 years and it still is on the original battery and hasn't varied more than 0.2 PH over that time.

 

[Kalomessimeri]

Thank you for the advice. I'm wondering if it's just a bad batch of soil. It can happen with these mega-manufacturers, something screws up in production and the product doesn't get everything it's supposed to have. I water very sparingly, just around the base of the plant, let it soak in then add a little more. I'm paranoid about letting the roots sit in sopping wet soil. For the bigger plants I've repeated the watering steps until a small amount starts coming out the holes in the bottom. I know they'd be happier if the soil had an aeration amendment. Our tap water consistently tests pH 7.0 year after year, it comes from a very healthy aquifer. Some people say 7.0 is the top of acceptable, others advise a lower pH is better. Also I'm haunted by the possibility the color is normal for this strain but I can't find any photos of seedlings or young plants that look like mine. There's a photo somewhere on this site of a mature plant with all bright yellow new growth - I wish I'd saved a copy. Well I don't think they're going to die today. I'll keep working with it, thanks again.

 

[Kalomessimeri]

Cloudy day - color might be a little better, I've looked at them too much so I can't tell. Sick of thinking about it, I'll think about it tomorrow.

 

[Major PITA]

After this amount of time, I'd go with the usual watering technique of a full drench (until the cups won't hold another drop), drain and leave them alone until they dry out. It might take two weeks before they need another drink, but it really does help the roots develop.