1st Grow: Indoor Tent, 250W MH/HPS, DWC Hydro, 2'x2' ScrOG

[usul]

Thank you SO MUCH Wheelo. Your reply illustrates why I am on this forum and why this community is so great.

I have found the recirculating schedule for my nutes and am recalculating. Looks like I'll need to add more - good news as that'll give me more pH buffering.

About res temps, yes, it is my greatest concern. I have a chiller queued up and will bring it online if needed. That said, once I fire up the exaust fan I'll be drawing in a lot of cold air from under the house and it cools the res first. Should be interesting to see how it works out. Stay tuned folks...

 

[WheeloFortune]

good deal Usul,

if you have a chiller in the que (like me) you are sitting pretty. . . i'm not using mine either because my res sits at 68* with no help right now, so its a waste of watts.

you have some killer strains there, so you should be really happy with your investment when it finall pays off, but just be forewarned you have a ways to go. lol.

how long do you think your going to veg?

 

[usul]

you have some killer strains there, so you should be really happy with your investment when it finall pays off, but just be forewarned you have a ways to go. lol.

how long do you think your going to veg?

Thanks WheelO, - a long way to go for sure! The switch from veg to flower seems like a lifetime away. This really is my first grow ever and every day is a learning experience - it's hard to think past tomorrow!

Regarding the timing question, what do you think? Conventional wisdom seems to say 4 weeks. I'm going to ScrOG so I think timing will be determinied by how full the screen gets? I was thinking when it's 50% full I'd screw in the HPS and go 12/12. Are you familiar with these strains? Should I expect a lot of stretch?

I'm also wondering how far the screen should be from the top of the res. Vertical space is tight: I have 28 inches from the top of the res to the bottom of the light. Any and all thoughts appreciated!!

Meanwhile... plants are happy, pH is stable and upgrading to the 250W light is under way <...sound of saws and hammers in background...> I'm working on a somewhat unique solution to the cooling challenge - should be able to test it later today.

 

[usul]

Upgrades

The 250W Metal Halide is blazing away and I've brought a new cooling system online. First, of course, today's stats:

Days Vegging: 10
Air Temp: 77F
RH: 39 - still a problem - just added a humidifier, I hope it helps!
Water Temp: 64F - is this too cold?
pH: 5.9 - very stable
TDS: 450ppm

I decided it was time to transition from the Flourescent lights to the Metal Halide and, in my tiny tent, I figured this would create temperature problems. I was ready to buy a chiller but thought I should try a simpler solution, and it worked! Instead of spending $300 on a chiller installation I met the challenge using <drum roll...> a $2.50 piece of styrofoam.

In a nutshell, I divided the tent into two chambers: one for the plants, one for the res - separated by a barrier of 3/4" foam insullation. Cold air from the crawl space enters the res chamber and a baffle channels it around the res before entereing the plant chamber. Here are some pics:

The old circulation fan (the one that didn't work with the timer) was replaced with a pair of EcoPlus 4" axial fans - those little suckers move a lot of air! One is on the same timer as the light, is aimed up at the light and moves air around the plant chamber. The other is on the same timer as the exhasut fan and is in the res chamber to boost cold air flow. The system has been running for three hours now and res temps have fallen from 66F down to 64F. Is that too cold??? This is certainly not a problem I thought I'd have. I may need to shut down the booster fan or put it on a timer.

Otherwise, the Ph issues seem to be very much under control. It's up to 5.9 but I haven't had to adjust it in nearly two days.

Other than the res perhaps being too cold there are two issues that cause me concern:

1. Humidity is way low. It has gone as far down as 30%. I've added a small humidifier to the plant chamber but it doesn't seem to be helping much yet. What sorts of issues will I encounter with low humidity? I hope this will be less of a problem once there is more foliage in the plant chamber.

2. The plants are perky and seem to be growing well, but their color seems very light to me. My first thought was that they are not getting enough nutes, but the res TDS is 450ppm and that seems about right for plants this size. I'm going to let it ride for now and keep a close eye on it.

Here's the latest picture of the girls at 10 days old.

As always, any feedback, thoughts, insights and guidance are very much welcome and appreciated.

 

[Caddie]

Damn Usal, you have a very informative little grow going on here. I love your photos with the the arrows and info. That is very informative.

I've got the same humidity problem you do--but I have a small grow like yourself right now. My plants seem to be about the same age as your's. I'm not too, worried about the RH right now.

I think it hurt my seedling stage, but I think they are doing fine now. I think plants would rather have low RH than a high one. I'm really surprised you can't keep a higher RH in your box. You must have great ventilation--which is great.






I'll keep watching your grow, and I'll let you know when I start my journal.

 

[usul]

Quick update: After lights-on for about 12 hours the res temp had dropped to below 60.5F. Air temp has remained steady at about 77F but the plants do not look happy. A few hours ago I shut down all but the large exhasut fan, pulled my fancy styrofoam thingy and lowered the light a few inches. Res temp is climbing slowly...

I'd really appreciate some feedback on the low temperature issue. Perhaps the plants are just reacting to a sudden drop in temperature and they will love it in the long run? Or perhaps I should buy a res heater? Interesting problem and certainly not the one I thought I'd be dealing with.

p.s. Sour Cream is still not showing any roots and is lagging in growth. She may not make it...

 

[ultrasonic]

Quick update: After lights-on for about 12 hours the res temp had dropped to below 60.5F. Air temp has remained steady at about 77F but the plants do not look happy. A few hours ago I shut down all but the large exhasut fan, pulled my fancy styrofoam thingy and lowered the light a few inches. Res temp is climbing slowly...

I'd really appreciate some feedback on the low temperature issue. Perhaps the plants are just reacting to a sudden drop in temperature and they will love it in the long run? Or perhaps I should buy a res heater? Interesting problem and certainly not the one I thought I'd be dealing with.

p.s. Sour Cream is still not showing any roots and is lagging in growth. She may not make it...

Hey man, sorry so long to get back to you: Get a fishtank heater for that sucker! 20 bucks. that way you'll know you'll never get too low. Now that winter is starting up here, I think I may even be in the same shoes. My res which normally runs at 72-77F is currently 61F!

ps- about your photos - love the labeling. Reminds me of biology class in highschool - I loved drawing those diagrams of cells and "properly labeling" all the parts, lol

Good Luck! I'll be posting my update tomorrow because today I got ahold of my bulb company, and will be thankfully talking to the good guy tomorrow.

 

[usul]

Tuning in Progress

Looks like I have the res temp issue under control. I am such a newbie - every day is a learning experience. Here's where I'm at:

Days Vegging: 12
Air Temp: 77F (it'll max out at 81F)
RH: 45 - the humidifier is working, but just barely
Water Temp: 68F - got the res temps up but this may not last
pH: 5.7 - stable - no sign of the enemy
TDS: 325ppm - I got ahead of myself and had to had to back off on the nutes.

Hey Ultrasonic! Thanks for stopping by. Once again, you have provided some comfort sharing that your res temps had dropped nearly as far as mine. We may be the only two growers on the planet with this problem. I can find hundreds of articles about the res being too hot, but not a single one about it being too cold. I wonder how cold we can go? Research indicates a 60F res has more available O2 than one at 65 or 70. But would a res that cold be bad for the plants? C'mon all you experts out there - this is why I'm on this forum - what do you say?

Anyway, I've continued to lower the light - now at 12" above the plants. That, combined with pulling out the heat barrier has brought the res temp back up to nearly 68F. That said, as the plants grow and the light will have to go up and the res will cool. That res heater may come in handy - if needed.

Last thing: I have to confess I made the classic newbie mistake: I overdid it on the nutes. I was worried about the light green/yellow leaves and upped the TDS to 570 - and the leaves started curling down. They're not curling under and there are no brown tips but I'm fairly sure this slight deformation is over-nute related. Experts weigh in please! I added fresh water taking TDS down to 325 and LA Woman responded positively. Sour Cream is stilll having a bad day. We'd all be much happier if she'd just grow some damn roots. Anyway, this is why the plants are looking droopy now. Live and learn.

Here are the latest pics. Happy to hear so many of you like the labels I was a graphic designer in my previous life and did a lot of technical publications. Then I did 10 years in Web site design so posting an image without fooling around in Photoshop is almost unthinkable. Crazy me.

 

[ultrasonic]

Hey Usul how goes it all.

Babies are coming along there! It's one day at a time, lol.
So - I wanted to get this out there: you're using the GH line of nutes? you're not using that miserable green shit are you?

If you don't know about it already, i'm going to rock your world. It's called the lucas formula. It uses GH nutes, but only the micro/bloom. It's a simple ratio: 5micro/10bloom for under CFLs, or 8micro/16bloom (the newer recipe) for HID lamps. What you've seen me use is the 5/10 mix. Oh yeah, thats all PER GALLON of RO water. Do some reading on that, I would HIGHLY recommend it.

So aside from that, the fishtank heater is a good idea I think. They really aren't that expensive, and have set-points so they don't heat forever. I may have to go that route for my now-flowering mum, but maybe not.

So your plants are growin' good man, they look a little angry, but if you're using GH nutes without lucas forumula, that could be why They really love that mix. Also, that light green isn't really an issue potentially. It could be mostly because the roots are taking in nutes now so there is a growth explosion. New growth will always be really pale. It also could be strain specific - some are very light green. (reminds me of a police chopper pilot Interview I saw once saying how easy it is to spot MJ plants in the sky because they don't look right... Fluorescent green compared to the other growth. He mentioned a strain of BC bud I think that they have trouble detecting because it's such a dark green color, it blends really well.)

Anyway! more luck to you, look forward to seeing some big plants

 

[Hydroguy]

Hey Usul,, great journal,, will be watching with interest.

ultasonic had is spot on about your prev ph problem, rockwool will force ph up for the first week or two, also you have a small res so will be more dramatic then most.
To combat this when i add fresh water (daily) i ph it down to 5 (for the first week)and that offsets the ph jump.

great job,, reps

 

[WheeloFortune]

i wouldnt call my self an expert, but as far a res temps go,

i think 60* is pushing the lower limit, but sould be ok. . . 64-66* is probably optimal. . . while the lower temps do increase DO, they will also shock the roots some. i would def heat it up if it drops into the 50's.

looking good bro.

 

[usul]

Thanks for the support folks - I'll get this figured out one way or the other!

Hey Usul how goes it all.
So - I wanted to get this out there: you're using the GH line of nutes? you're not using that miserable green shit are you?

If you don't know about it already, i'm going to rock your world. It's called the lucas formula. It uses GH nutes, but only the micro/bloom. It's a simple ratio: 5micro/10bloom for under CFLs, or 8micro/16bloom (the newer recipe) for HID lamps. What you've seen me use is the 5/10 mix. Oh yeah, thats all PER GALLON of RO water. Do some reading on that, I would HIGHLY recommend it.

So aside from that, the fishtank heater is a good idea I think. They really aren't that expensive, and have set-points so they don't heat forever. I may have to go that route for my now-flowering mum, but maybe not.

Brilliant Ultrasonic! Thanks exactly the feedback I was hoping for. Consider my world rocked.

... rockwool will force ph up for the first week or two, also you have a small res so will be more dramatic then most.
To combat this when i add fresh water (daily) i ph it down to 5 (for the first week)and that offsets the ph jump.

Excellent advice Hydroguy, and I'll be sure to do this on my next grow. My problem, however, was much more nasty - I really did have some kind of infection. The water was foaming up, everything was coated with slime and it all smelled funky. The chlorine/H2O2 double scrub was the only solution. Everything is fine now - pH super stable at 5.8

i wouldnt call my self an expert, but as far a res temps go,

i think 60* is pushing the lower limit, but sould be ok. . . 64-66* is probably optimal. . . while the lower temps do increase O2, they will also shock the roots some. i would def heat it up if it drops into the 50's.

Thanks Wheelo! You might not call yourself an expert but I've seen your setup and if you're not an expert then there's no such thing. My res is sitting happy at 67.5F so I'm good for now, but as the light goes up and temperatures in the crawl space drop it's a sure thing I'll need to warm things up. Tank heater is inbound. Thanks for your guidance.



Every day with this grow is an adventure. Here's where things are at: Ultrasonic's pointer to the Lucas Formula seems right on. Yes, I was using the green shit, but not any more. I just changed the res (I am really good at that now) and am running the Lucas Formula at half strength. PPMs are about the same so it shouldn't be too much of a shock. I'm planning to top off with full strength formula a gallon at a time which should slowly build it up to full strength at 8/16.

Keeping the humidity up remains a challenge. I'm working on ways to manage this without having to fill the humidifier every 5 hours. It's messing with my beauty sleep.

Finally, Ms. Sour Cream is on her last legs. Picking away some of the hydroton I see she's trying to put down roots, but with all we've been through she's fading fast. Looks like I'll be down to a one plant grow soon. Given what I've read that should be just about right for a 6 gallon 2x2 ScrOG.

That's it for now. I'll get some new pics up soon.

 

[usul]

Contemplating Euthinasia

Update: I now have the humidity issue under control (I added a second humidifier, set them both on low and slowed down the exhaust fan using a speed controller) and that was the last challenge to overcome. All the numbers are textbook perfect: TDS, pH, temps, RH, you name it - these plants have a great growing environement...

...and they look like death warmed over.

I think the bacterial infection I had at the beginning of this grow did a number on them and, try as they might, they are simply not going to thrive. I could attempt to nurse them back to health but that's not the game I signed up for. At the beginning of this journal I said these were the (free) seeds I'd learn on, and they've done their job admirably. I've learned so much. Now I think it's time to put them out of their misery and start anew.

I haven't pulled the plug yet so if there's anyone out there who thinks we should soldier on please let me know and I might reconsider. Otherwise, I'm preparing to start a new grow. Just pulled three seeds out of the fridge: Barney's Farm Red Cherry Berry - an Indica/Sativa mix reported to have a very cerebral high, and that's what I'm aiming for. I'll start pH'ing the rockwool on Saturday.

 

[WheeloFortune]

sometimes its worth it, sometimes it's not. . . thats the decision you have to make. hopefully you correctly diagnosed the problem and it wont happen to the next batch.

gl bro, if you start fresh, i would just keep this journal going as opposed to starting a new one, we're already here. lol.

 

[ultrasonic]

Usul i'd send you one of the 6 clones I had to tear out and throw on the ground if I could!

Don't despair though! Like you said, you've learned so much.

I'm with you to the end! Red Cherry Berry sounds tasty.

 

[Hydroguy]

hiya,

sorry to hear about the ladies but you know you are growing a weed and they do tend to recover although you will obviously get a decreased yeild.
But this is only something the grower can make a call on, sometimes it is better to cut them lose (like my last GF),, you will be adding at least 4 - 5 weeks for you get your smoke though

my next grow i will be growing cherry berry also, heard great things about it, so i will be watching this grow with interest either way.

decisions , decisions, deciisions!!!!

 

[usul]

Thanks everyone for your feedback and support. I've decided to start over with new seeds, and I'll keep this journal going. I'm still optimizing my setup and I have a few upgrades inbound so I'll keep these sad little plants growing a while longer and continue learning. They provide such good feedback ... like lab rats.

Red Cherry Berry does sound yummy. Please stay tuned....

 

[usul]

Update...

Checking in with a quick update. I'm continuing to optimize my setup (fan placement turns out to be more important than I thought) and am watching the lab rats to see how I'm doing.

Here's the latest crazy thing: the res water has been perfectly clear and pH stable for quite some time. Yesterday I decided to lower the TDS by draining some of the nutes then adding back clear pHed RO water. I was super sterile about it - wore gloves and everything. That should be safe, right? Think again. Within 12 hours the water had clouded up and was infested with "snot" - opaque white chunks of goo: thick, gelatinous, and about the size of a piece of barley to as large as a lima bean. What the hell is that about!

It had been 8 days since my last res change so I went ahead and drained it, gave it a light scrub with H2O2, then refilled with fresh pH buffered quarter strength (270ppm) Lucas Formula nutes. Aside from the weirdness of it all there were no bad smells and pH didn't get terribly out of control. We'll see how the rats like it.

However it works out, these plants are stunted from all my "learning experiences" and are headed for the dumpster. I have a new high output flourescent light inbound so I can veg longer under a low heat light (making it easier to maintain temp and humidity in my small space). Once I get that installed and dialed in, and figure out the snot thing, I'll start cooking those red cherry berries.

 

[ultrasonic]

Re: Update...

Checking in with a quick update. I'm continuing to optimize my setup (fan placement turns out to be more important than I thought) and am watching the lab rats to see how I'm doing.

Here's the latest crazy thing: the res water has been perfectly clear and pH stable for quite some time. Yesterday I decided to lower the TDS by draining some of the nutes then adding back clear pHed RO water. I was super sterile about it - wore gloves and everything. That should be safe, right? Think again. Within 12 hours the water had clouded up and was infested with "snot" - opaque white chunks of goo: thick, gelatinous, and about the size of a piece of barley to as large as a lima bean. What the hell is that about!

It had been 8 days since my last res change so I went ahead and drained it, gave it a light scrub with H2O2, then refilled with fresh pH buffered quarter strength (270ppm) Lucas Formula nutes. Aside from the weirdness of it all there were no bad smells and pH didn't get terribly out of control. We'll see how the rats like it.

However it works out, these plants are stunted from all my "learning experiences" and are headed for the dumpster. I have a new high output flourescent light inbound so I can veg longer under a low heat light (making it easier to maintain temp and humidity in my small space). Once I get that installed and dialed in, and figure out the snot thing, I'll start cooking those red cherry berries.

HMM.
Well. When I try to solve a problem like this, I work backwards. Logically *spock ears* if your plants aren't the problem, your RO system is. Those filters are very easily contaminated, and if the water was "sitting" in the system filters for a while, bacteria can grow. If you haven't used your RO water in a while (seems like you didn't), you could have drawn a bunch of bacteria laden water. As soon as it was added to the res, it would have started feeding like mad.

I say, replace your PRE-FILTERS first. Sanitize everything, lube up your Orings with some petro. jelly. Are you on a municipal source or well water? A solution would be an inline UV sterilizer. They don't KILL bacteria, what they do is mutate the DNA, so when mitosis occurs, they just blow up, rendering them harmless. If the cleansing doesn't help, move downstream to the more expensive RO membrane, replacing it and sanitizing the tube. Another issue could potentially be the storage tank. Bacteria WILL Collect here, and it should be sanitized inside as well.

I'd say these would be the best places to start, only if you're sure that the rockwool/hydroton is not causing the problem (it should be the problem only if you're top feeding - hence introducing the bacteria into the res)

90% sure at this point it is your water supply. Let me know what you think man!

NO MORE SNOT.

 

[usul]

Thanks Ultra - good thinking. The thing is, I'm using store-bought water - I don't really have the time, energy to space to run and maintain my own RO system. I'm not top feeding so I'm pretty sure it's not the problem. There could be some issues lingering from that first infection I had, but the snot was a completely different animal. Who knows...

Anyway, your comment about the water is a good one and I'm going to look for a better source - sometimes those alternative co-op groceries have an on-site system. And before I start my next grow I'm going to sterilize the rockwool and hydroton... and everything else.