Growing Without Bloom Nutes By Farside05
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- #2,722
Hello farside! Got linked to your journal and gotta say theres 136 pages of quality content to read. Made it to the page 20 already
Just startin my new proggy and Ive ordered terpinator as a extra K supplement to be used from a very beginning. (Easier to find 1:2 or 1:2.5 N&K ratios)
So would like to ask you how you liked it? Many product description pages says ”terpinator does not affect on your ppm values”..But in my understanding the 4% K is in catonic form so should be easy to absorb(?) and if recommended doses would be 5-10ml/gallon, then in my understanding for example 5ml/g should provide 54ppm of K or 10ml/g would be 109ppm K + other micros(?)
…So even 5ml/g should show up .1 bump on EC meter or 50-100ppm bump on TDS meter.
Obv thats a small bump yeah, and could be described as ”does not affect on ppm”
But lets say we have a situation where base nutes already provides for example ~100N 20P 120K, and I would like to achieve 200-250ppm of K. Would need at least 10ml/gallon of Terpinator for that. Could exceed amounts cause problems?
Can’t find terpinators label nowhere to see what everything theres in it, nor has the bottle arrived yet.
If youve a word or two about it, would like to hear!
Welcome! If you want an honest assessment...there are far cheaper ways to feed Potassium Sulfate (Terpinator's only listed ingredient) to your plants. You could buy a bag of Potassium Sulfate, a gallon of distilled water, and make your own at a fraction of the cost. My opinion is that it's a ton of hype and marketing. If you live in my area I'll gladly give you 2+ gallons of it that are occupying space in the corner of my closet.
Here's the label.
As long as you're in soil or a peat based soil-less medium, I'd be much more inclined to go with Potassium Silicate for any extra K. It will give you the benefits of Silica that's almost non-existent I'm most fertilizers. It's hard to use in true hydro or coco though since it drives up the pH of your nutrient solution quite a bit. See the links in my signature for how to make your own Silica supplements if you are interested further in this option.
I know I've seen the BS of not effecting your ppm and that's impossible unless the whole jug was 0 ppm distilled water. If it contains anything it will increase your ppm's. Seems like you already deduced that though.
Sorry if those answers weren't what you wanted to hear, but you asked my opinion and I gave it without much filter.
PS, my current targets on N-P-K are 150 N, 20-30 P, 200 K. That's full strength for mature vegging or blooming plants. The ratios don't change throughout the grow, just how much I feed. IE seedlings get 30 N, 4 P, 40 K (divide full strength by 5).
You said you're shooting for 200-250ppm of K. That should still be in a safe range. Just as a word of caution, I've seen some people dance with 300+ K and end up with fried plants. It happened quite regular when people were playing with Mega Crop and some of the other supplements like Bud Explosion.
Welcome Tok!
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- #2,723
Photo updates:
The Babies (2 Blue Dream, 2 Chemdog, both from Nirvana Seeds).
The soon to be harvested Original Glue Auto
The N.A.A. (Non-Auto Auto). So she was supposed to be a Northern Lights x Big Bud Auto, but the smell is very fruity and she's just starting to bud. The fact that she's also not an auto is leading me to believe that she's also not a NLxBB.
The Babies (2 Blue Dream, 2 Chemdog, both from Nirvana Seeds).
The soon to be harvested Original Glue Auto
The N.A.A. (Non-Auto Auto). So she was supposed to be a Northern Lights x Big Bud Auto, but the smell is very fruity and she's just starting to bud. The fact that she's also not an auto is leading me to believe that she's also not a NLxBB.
That Original Glue Auto looks amazingPhoto updates:
The Babies (2 Blue Dream, 2 Chemdog, both from Nirvana Seeds).
The soon to be harvested Original Glue Auto
The N.A.A. (Non-Auto Auto). So she was supposed to be a Northern Lights x Big Bud Auto, but the smell is very fruity and she's just starting to bud. The fact that she's also not an auto is leading me to believe that she's also not a NLxBB.
Go go mystery girl!
Might not be a BBxNL, but hopefully she will be a nice surprise come smoke time.
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- #2,725
Thanks.That Original Glue Auto looks amazing
Go go mystery girl!
Might not be a BBxNL, but hopefully she will be a nice surprise come smoke time.
A little variety wouldn't hurt. I've had plenty of the NLxBB. Not that it's bad, but mystery weed would add a bit of intrigue.
They labeled it that way because "some seed we picked up off the floor and are shipping out without a clue as to what it is" didn't fit on the sticker!
OGa looks lovely and I'm really digging that sswpuotfaasowacatwis, which is amazing for the reasons you stated earlier.
OGa looks lovely and I'm really digging that sswpuotfaasowacatwis, which is amazing for the reasons you stated earlier.
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- #2,727
They labeled it that way because "some seed we picked up off the floor and are shipping out without a clue as to what it is" didn't fit on the sticker!
OGa looks lovely and I'm really digging that sswpuotfaasowacatwis, which is amazing for the reasons you stated earlier.
I'll stick with NAA for the acronym. It's easier to type...lol
Congrats on your POTM. Maybe NAA will be a contender in December.
Hope for some color! Ups your chances.
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Hope for some color! Ups your chances.
Sure does, because other than color, this girl was pretty average.
on selecting those excellent genetics!- Thread starter
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A little Saugaview™ photo of the NAA while it was in the tub getting fed some FN Nutes®. Photo didn't come out as pretty as @MrSauga 's. Got a bunch of extraneous bath crap in the background. Daughters and their grooming regiment, ugh! Looks like she and the boy need to empty their trash can too. Anyway, NAA is eating 5ml FN Silica®, 10ml FN Micros®, 10ml FN Part A®, and 10ml FN Part B® and that's the plan from now till harvest.
Looks great from any angle, and you know it's time to empty the bin when there are two toilet paper tubes in there!
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In the kid's bathroom it's more like "when the bin is overflowing and there's 2 on the floor".
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Big maintenance day. Harvested the Original Glue, transplanted the Blue Dreams and Chemdogs, and adjusted the ties on the NAA and gave her a feed of FN Nutes®. Maybe I'll get some pics up later when the lights come on.
I ended up reusing some old Faux Mix®, or should I rename it FN Soil-Less Mix®? Did a pH test on it before hand and it was 5.3 so I added 1/2 cup of Dolomite Lime (for 40 gals of mix) to try to bring it up a bit more. I can test it again later if I desire. If it's still too low I'll use some MSU fertilizer, which is almost all Nitrate Nitrogen to bring it up a pinch. Otherwise I'll just use FN Nutes®.
I ended up reusing some old Faux Mix®, or should I rename it FN Soil-Less Mix®? Did a pH test on it before hand and it was 5.3 so I added 1/2 cup of Dolomite Lime (for 40 gals of mix) to try to bring it up a bit more. I can test it again later if I desire. If it's still too low I'll use some MSU fertilizer, which is almost all Nitrate Nitrogen to bring it up a pinch. Otherwise I'll just use FN Nutes®.
Looking lush, Farside! 
Hey fellow growers - I ran across this paper (Caplan no less) and thought I would put it up here for possible interest:
The conclusion is that the optimum organic fertilizer application rate is 389 ppm N. Now, before the freakout, the authors are careful to point out the following in the Discussion:
No visual signs of nutrient disorders were observed in this trial which suggests that the fertilizers used had nutrient elements and ratios within an acceptable range. Both growth attributes and yield of the cannabis plants exhibited a typical response to varying fertilizer application rates. Yield increased with increasing fertilizer until reaching a maximum at a rate supplying 389 mg N/L. Optimal organic fertilizer application rates in this experiment were higher than synthetic fertilizer recommendations for most conventional crops (Raviv and Lieth, 2007). Organic fertilizers contain slower releasing and less soluble forms of nitrogen and phosphorus compared with most synthetic fertilizers and may release only 25% to 60% of their nitrogen content (Prasad et al., 2004). Therefore, it is important to establish organic-specific fertilizer rates rather than using conventional standards as guidelines. Results from our present study showed a fertilizer rate supplying 389 mg N/L provided the highest yield while increasing or having no effect on the concentration of the cannabinoids measured.
Okay, so if one assumes an average of 35% of the nitrogen and phosphorus content of 389 and 52 ppm, this brings the max veg dosing to an interesting profile
156 ppm N
18 ppm P
132 ppm K
70 ppm Ca (from the addition of 2ml/L CalMag)
37 ppm Mg ( “ )
8.4 ppm Fe
12.2 ppm B
14.6 ppm Zn
2.6 ppm Mo
2.1 ppm Cu
No Mn or S
The max bloom profile (129 ppm N from Bloom + 70 ppm N from CalMag both reduced to 35% and 24 ppm P also reduced to 35%) would be something like:
70 ppm N
8 ppm P
176 ppm K
70 ppm Ca
136 ppm Mg
similar micros to veg
still no Mn or S
Interesting, no?
Hey fellow growers - I ran across this paper (Caplan no less) and thought I would put it up here for possible interest:
Optimal Rate of Organic Fertilizer during the Vegetative-stage for Cannabis Grown in Two Coir-based Substrates
Cannabis producers, especially those with organic operations, lack reliable information on the fertilization requirements for their crops. To determine the optimal organic fertilizer rate for vegetative-stage cannabis (Cannabis sativa L.), five rates that supplied 117, 234, 351, 468, and 585 mg...
journals.ashs.org
The conclusion is that the optimum organic fertilizer application rate is 389 ppm N. Now, before the freakout, the authors are careful to point out the following in the Discussion:
No visual signs of nutrient disorders were observed in this trial which suggests that the fertilizers used had nutrient elements and ratios within an acceptable range. Both growth attributes and yield of the cannabis plants exhibited a typical response to varying fertilizer application rates. Yield increased with increasing fertilizer until reaching a maximum at a rate supplying 389 mg N/L. Optimal organic fertilizer application rates in this experiment were higher than synthetic fertilizer recommendations for most conventional crops (Raviv and Lieth, 2007). Organic fertilizers contain slower releasing and less soluble forms of nitrogen and phosphorus compared with most synthetic fertilizers and may release only 25% to 60% of their nitrogen content (Prasad et al., 2004). Therefore, it is important to establish organic-specific fertilizer rates rather than using conventional standards as guidelines. Results from our present study showed a fertilizer rate supplying 389 mg N/L provided the highest yield while increasing or having no effect on the concentration of the cannabinoids measured.
Okay, so if one assumes an average of 35% of the nitrogen and phosphorus content of 389 and 52 ppm, this brings the max veg dosing to an interesting profile
156 ppm N
18 ppm P
132 ppm K
70 ppm Ca (from the addition of 2ml/L CalMag)
37 ppm Mg ( “ )
8.4 ppm Fe
12.2 ppm B
14.6 ppm Zn
2.6 ppm Mo
2.1 ppm Cu
No Mn or S
The max bloom profile (129 ppm N from Bloom + 70 ppm N from CalMag both reduced to 35% and 24 ppm P also reduced to 35%) would be something like:
70 ppm N
8 ppm P
176 ppm K
70 ppm Ca
136 ppm Mg
similar micros to veg
still no Mn or S
Interesting, no?
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- #2,736
I haven't read the full article yet, but yes, interesting. If one were designing an "All Phase" fertilizer, and took the max number for each of the elements, in both those Veg and Bloom schedules, the results would come out very close to my FN Nutes®
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- #2,737
Photo updates
The transplanted babies. Chemdogs in the back, Blue Dreams in the front.
The NAA spread out further. She's filling almost all the 3x3 now. Biggest issue is trying to fit her through doorways when I take her to the tub for a watering.
The transplanted babies. Chemdogs in the back, Blue Dreams in the front.
The NAA spread out further. She's filling almost all the 3x3 now. Biggest issue is trying to fit her through doorways when I take her to the tub for a watering.
Congrats on the harvest! We'll take you at your word I guess... 
We don't hit close to those PPMs for micros with synthetics. Are we leaving something on the table or was there just no way for them to compensate for the ride-along factor in their tests?
You feel my pain!
I can’t tell if it’s an intentional dose - those levels do seem pretty high to me too - but they are clear about listing them, and stating that no deficiencies or toxicities were noted (before senescence - caused by an extended period of no nutrients to force the end of flowering). I think what it may show is that our ideas about the upper bounds of sufficiency levels are too low, and maybe we don’t have to worry about exceeding levels considered “normal”.
Mebs, but it would be a lot more informative if it had been done with synthetics. I haven't had a chance to read the paper yet but it seems like there are so many moving parts to organic grows that it I feel like it makes conclusions less conclusive.
