Increasing yield with defoliation indoors: What's it mean? How to do it?

[Kriaze]

I have the space for a side by side just not the knowledge as to which method is best, to be fair I'd rather they were cram packed as not but at the loss of a couple of plants or so I could give it a go. I'd rather see it from someone that knew what they were doing though, RWDC or not, although that would take out the variable of microbial activity and ph swings etc. Thing is, seeing as you mentioned it you should do it, journal it up. You know you wanted to the moment you started discussing it

 

[LEDBud]

At some point I will test with rdwc , in the past i have enjoyed running tests on electrical and thermal efficiency so this is up my Alley.

Hope to revege a plant after this grow if it proves worthy and take a few clones then I will test wtf , it will take me awhile, hoping to reveg a smelly and dank bubblegum variety or Chocolate Thai if I get one from the seeds

Should get one out of the four thats dank and clone worthy
Will be some months before a Mom is ready and clones taken , perspective moms are 2.5 weeks old right now..

I will let you all know when I start this , I am IN baby

 

[Bassman59]

Unless your "side by side" plants are at least 6 feet apart, and get same light value, it's not being properly done. "Side by side" by definition goes fully against the grain of this method by fully leafed plants SHADING OUT defoliated.

just do two separate grows with same strains same conditions. Only those that can be truly apart so as to not shade could possibly do side by side.

 

[Up4smoke2017]

Very true bassman..

Sent from my LG-D800 using 420 Magazine Mobile App

 

[LEDBud]

When running tests conditions must be identical they must be run off the same food same light same air at the same time with the same available space.

I can give one side of the tent two lush leafy plants , the other side two identical plucked plants

each with its own 600w HPS in the same model of reflector

Those are real world conditions , if I was to space out the plants the leafy plants would have a advantage


Tent is 6ft 5" x 4ft 6" x 7 ft H with 30 sq.ft of floor space

Are these acceptable conditions bassman , any suggestions or tips to fine tune it ?

I am thinking you could direst me in the defoliation process so its done effectively , no sense in a test if the right protocol is not followed..

 

[LEDBud]

Doing it my method leaves no room for differences they both get the same space and light and food and temp and etc etc etc doing it your way leaves a bag load of room for different conditions and would only leave doubt in those displeased with the results

It must be set up stringently with that in mind I will follow a guide by a more advanced defoiler / grower to give the defoil plants the best chance at success.

I know of a guy on youtube he is a fairly high caliber commercial grower who against everyone's advice defoils the shit out of his plants. He thinks he does Wondrous others think he is missing the boat

He is a Star trek geek of some sort but is out challenging peoples minds.

 

[Bassman59]

When running tests conditions must be identical they must be run off the same food same light same air at the same time with the same available space.

I can give one side of the tent two lush leafy plants , the other side two identical plucked plants

each with its own 600w HPS in the same model of reflector

Those are real world conditions , if I was to space out the plants the leafy plants would have a advantage


Tent is 6ft 5" x 4ft 6" x 7 ft H with 30 sq.ft of floor space

Are these acceptable conditions bassman , any suggestions or tips to fine tune it ?

I am thinking you could direst me in the defoliation process so its done effectively , no sense in a test if the right protocol is not followed..

Too small of a space in that tent. If you read my OP a couple times, and take notes, you may soon realize that side by side's are very hard to accomplish. You'll have 1 grow going taller and leafy. The other grow, if following the guide, will be behind. This means you need to lower it's light compared to the other two plants. Now you have light spread affecting the other grow as well! See how goofy it can get? Not too damn "scientific" is it?

If you have your strains and normal grow methods down pat, and with success, I suggest two grows back to back (but likely 3-4 because of defoliation learning curve), rather than simultaneous.

 

[LEDBud]

You added in imaginary problems where there will be none , each side has its own shade that will be adjusted to suit each plants height.

Any light spread will be minimal at best and insignificant to the results but true to real life circumstances

I can't be catering to EITHER plant the test will be run in real life circumstances , leaf against leaf

Remember this is a defoliation test not a light quality test ..

The test will be run as described to ensure there is continuity, yes it is scientific.

My method has one variable stray light that is not going to cause a significant benefit to either plant. the cooltube reflectors I use produce a tight footprint.

Perfect for this test

I hope the defoil plants produce as much or more as the leafy plants as they produce a lot less moisture., I'm just doubtful.

But I'm honest I will test honestly and minimize any light spread while still allowing for good air circulation ,which is paramount

~ edited for clarity ~

 

[Bassman59]

You added in imaginary problems where there will be none , each side has its own shade that will be adjusted to suit each plants height.


Remember this is a defoliation test not a light quality test ..

The test will be run as described to ensure there is continuity, yes it is scientific.

I don't understand your thinking its like you are repeated things without thinking them threw

You must of read some bad information it happens

ok you win. I know dick about this.

 

[LEDBud]

Its not all or nothing i hope you can you conceive of the idea that you do not know it all.

Ego fest ?

Probably best to get back to this in some months when I'm ready to go , this is getting useless.

Lets make this year a productive year I will drop by in some months until then signing off.

 

[Bassman59]

Its not all or nothing i hope you can you conceive of the idea that you do not know it all.

Ego fest ?

Probably best to get back to this in some months when I'm ready to go , this is getting useless.

Lets make this year a productive year I will drop by in some months until then signing off.

While you mentioned it's not a light test, it suggests to me you have no thoroughly read the thread. The entire subject IS about getting more light to all portions of our plants! Once we understand that, AND apply the other concepts included in this thread, we easily realize there is no possible way to be "scientific" as you suggest, with side by side in such a small area.

Hence why I suggest using clones from same mom, doing consecutive grows, and gaining avg's over time. I've seen growers, including my mentor on the subject achieve over 14oz per plant avg's over consecutive grows, with plants under 3 foot tall, and nearly 3 foot wide. One plant achieving 19oz dry!

You likely know what your strains do and produce already if you're growing same strain grow after grow and have the experience. So why not try this on a few grows? First couple times will still be learning curves just like when you first started trying things as a newer grower.

Don't think I "look ahead"? What happens when your two non defoliated plants are perfect for flip but the two defoliated plants are 2-3 weeks behind in veg still? If one has read thoroughly, one understands the method takes longer from "clone to harvest". We plan for this as well. We start our next grows accordingly, so after the first time, we don't notice the time difference. Flowering time is the one consistent time measure with our strains.

I'm all for comparison growing. Just not side by side with this method. It isn't about ego. But far too many naysayers suggest only side by side is "scientific". They refuse to understand my points above of plant shading, timing for flip, light depth differences due to height, etc.

It isn't about ego at all. I get tired of making those points over and over when one could read and think about them.

 

[gr865]

How about running the test in a Vertical grow.
Do 6 clones all same plant, use a 600W or 1000W HPS, same setup for all plants.
That way you can put a defo, non defo, defo and so forth. All plant will have equal light, same nutes, same quanity of nutes, same air movement for all plant and not temp differential.
This is a 5 plant setup, but a six plant would be about the same.

I defo in a vertical grow but have never considered running that text on my plants.

GR

 

[dlchobbes]

Well restrained response, Bassman, I admire your patience. I just got my mmj permit to grow my own and have been reading your comments (and first post). I look forward to implementing your methods and honing my skills as a grower.

 

[Bassman59]

Well restrained response, Bassman, I admire your patience. I just got my mmj permit to grow my own and have been reading your comments (and first post). I look forward to implementing your methods and honing my skills as a grower.

Grats sir!

Probably the best suggestion I can make is to first get through a couple grows successfully. Making mistakes and learning early on doing things normal. Once you've done that and are confident with your conditions, strains, nutrient mixes, lights, air, etc, down pat. Then plan a grow using these methods. It's much better to have it all down pat so we don't make mistakes in other depts, and blame it on this method when it doesn't come out well.

Best wishes.

P.S. It's easy to learn patience when you've been married to my ex-wife and didn't end up in jail!

 

[Bassman59]

How about running the test in a Vertical grow.
Do 6 clones all same plant, use a 600W or 1000W HPS, same setup for all plants.
That way you can put a defo, non defo, defo and so forth. All plant will have equal light, same nutes, same quanity of nutes, same air movement for all plant and not temp differential.
This is a 5 plant setup, but a six plant would be about the same.

I defo in a vertical grow but have never considered running that text on my plants.

GR

I know of more than 1 grower that does vertical and have applied this method with crazy good success and over 2# dry yield in one plant. But these were not done in a tent. A full room done all vert, all defoliated, and FAR FAR bushier than your pics. This one grower had perfected his methods already and saw a gain of over 5oz per plant avg on same strain consecutive grows vs a long history of non defoliation. His confirming results were one of the reasons I decided to learn this method.

**Vert growing does not mean one cannot train and have bushy plants! It refers more to the lights being hung vertically, and surrounding the plants with light. Just think, what a plant can do indoors when surrounded by lights.

 

[gr865]

I know of more than 1 grower that does vertical and have applied this method with crazy good success and over 2# dry yield in one plant. But these were not done in a tent. A full room done all vert, all defoliated, and FAR FAR bushier than your pics. This one grower had perfected his methods already and saw a gain of over 5oz per plant avg on same strain consecutive grows vs a long history of non defoliation. His confirming results were one of the reasons I decided to learn this method.

**Vert growing does not mean one cannot train and have bushy plants! It refers more to the lights being hung vertically, and surrounding the plants with light. Just think, what a plant can do indoors when surrounded by lights.

There is a great Vert thread on ic by Marlo, check it out, a 2.8' x 6' x 5' and his yields are super.

I grow in a 4x4 tent so I have to optimize my footprint. 4x4 Floor space is 16 sq ft, with vertical and my screens I have over 25 sq ft footprint. That was my first 400W vert grow and I had all sorts of shit go on, but this one plant even with the bull shit was over 3 zips.
I have now upgraded my lighting and screen size, I will be running twin lamps, the upper lamp will be a 315W CMH 3100 lumen lamp and the lower lamp is the 400W HPS.
Hopefully I will get my clones in this week, and can get this next grow going. I have two plants in there now that I started from seed but I need a total of 5 to complete my screens.

GR
\

 

[Bassman59]

3 is likely max optimal for your area imho.

 

[gr865]

3 is likely max optimal for your area imho.

Thanks Bassman, Do you need a rhythm or lead player that can do lead or backup vocals. More rhythm than lead.

Can you please explain? I think with a screen based grow, 5 plants fits the space with room to move the plants toward or away from the lamps as needed for heat control and light distribution. They can be moved toward the light to 14" and away from the lamps to 21+".
Three plants would leave large gaps after placing the screen around the lamps.

Here is the setup without the screen attached.

So if you can explain why you feel that three plants would be considered optimal? Not argumental just want to learn!

GR

 

[Bassman59]

ahhhh, so you're not letting them grow wide at all? Just tied up to the screen.

That's not vert by it's more normally accepted definition I believe. Or maybe it is and I'm confusing myself. The vertical light growers I know about might have 5 vertically hung, no reflector lights in a room, positioned to surround x number of plants fully with light penetration to the middle of each plant, allowing them to become rather massive. When you see 4-5' plants yielding 2+ #'s each indoors, it's rather impressive.

I don't think you really gain much either way with your method by defoliation or not. I think (and I really could be wrong here) it limits the plants with virtually no training.

In a 4x4 by my method/style I would have 3 plants in rdwc, training the shit out of them in veg flat and wide (along with defoliation) and yield between 32-40 oz.

 

[gr865]

ahhhh, so you're not letting them grow wide at all? Just tied up to the screen.

That's not vert by it's more normally accepted definition I believe. Or maybe it is and I'm confusing myself. The vertical light growers I know about might have 5 vertically hung, no reflector lights in a room, positioned to surround x number of plants fully with light penetration to the middle of each plant, allowing them to become rather massive. When you see 4-5' plants yielding 2+ #'s each indoors, it's rather impressive.

I don't think you really gain much either way with your method by defoliation or not. I think (and I really could be wrong here) it limits the plants with virtually no training.

In a 4x4 by my method/style I would have 3 plants in rdwc, training the shit out of them in veg flat and wide (along with defoliation) and yield between 32-40 oz.

I took this from a post on ----- from MyGreenToe.

"For the sake of this discussion, indoor vertical grow systems can be defined as:

Grow setups in which one or more bulbs is hung vertically, with no reflector. In all but Stadium style Verticals, the plants are arrayed around the bulb/s, in a 360 degree wall of green, which then grows inward towards the bulb/s. This eliminates the use of costly reflectors. Stadium style grows make excellent use of vertical space in the same way bleachers do in a stadium, instead of a 360 wall of green. The lights are hung vertically along the center aisle, while the plants sit on the "bleachers". The nature of these setups creates far more square footage of canopy when compared to a traditional flat setup with the same footprint. Vertical setups, while initially intimidating, are compatible with most any style of growing, from organic, to soil/soilless, and hydroponics of all flavors. Vertical setups have been proven to work on both small and large scales. Whether you Do It Yourself, or buy a commercial unit, once set up properly, they really perform!

Indoor vertical grow systems generally fall into 4 categories. These are Vertical SOG, Vertical SCROG, Stadium/Coliseum Style Grows, and Tree/Bush Grows."

As you can see there are multiple methods for vertical grows, my grow would be considered a Vertical Scrog, though I do not grow behind the screen and push the buds through the screen, I plant on the inside of the screen and tie the branches to the screen. The method you are discussing i believe is the Tree/Bush grow.

"Vertical SCROG

The most common vertical method for micro and personal growers, Vertical Screen of Green(V-SCROG) takes the principles of scrogging vertical. As with flat scrogging, V-SCROG uses a screen to train buds. There are 2 basic ways growers do this.

With the first method, the grower constructs a tube of hardware cloth, or any chicken wire like material with appropriately sized holes, and places the bulb in the middle of the tube. The diameter of the tube would primarily be decided by the lighting one chooses to use. One or more plants are placed on the ground beneath the screen. The plants are trained around the screen until it has been filled, using the same techniques as traditional scrogging. When flowered, the colas all grow inward to the bulb like an inside out porcupine. Since these are all DIY, there are as many variations on the same basic theme as one can imagine. A once popular variation was to fit the whole works, including ventilation, into a barrel. This is sometimes called V-Tub, Barrel of green, etc. They come in every flavor including soil, hydro, single plant, multi plant, etc.

The second basic method of V-Scrogging utilizes an individual screen for each plant in the system, typically attached to the pot so the plant can be easily moved outside the flower chamber for training, then put back in place. Growers with a single stationary screen typically don't have this option. I believe it is for this reason that most V-SCROGgers are going with this method.

Marlo's STEP IN THE ARENA is an excellent example of the second type of V-SCROG:
https://www.-----.com/ic/showthread.php?t=164050

This certainly doesn't cover every application of screens in vertical growing. It's worth noting that some Stadium growers have had great success training their plants with screens. Also some tree growers like to toss a screen over their trees and use it to help hold up the crazy colas they grow. Screens and nets can be useful in most any grow, so long as they don't get in the way too much."

Marlo's grow in the Step in the Arena was my inspiration for my grow. His room is 2'8"X6'x5' and he does 12 plants. The buddy of mine, that turned me on to Marlo's method grow, does this in a 3x6x8 closet with 10 plants. His screens are 2' wide by 4 tall, fits his room perfectly. The yield on his last grow was lite due to fungal gnats, but he got an average of just under 4 zips per plant or 2.5 lbs. I did not have that good a yield due to operator error, LOL. Since I only grow for my own meds my goal is 3 zips per plant 5 plants and around a pound. My last grow was just over 10 zips, again with operator error, so I know that I can improve on that.

The thing I like about the screen is being able to remove each plant from the tent to work on them, without having to fuck with the light. If I had access to clones they would all be same height an grow pattern, with mix strains I had varying heights which I had to put risers under the pots to keep them at equal height.

Note the plant on the far right, that was my bitch this grow. All plants were effected by the issue but that one was bad, yield was only 26 g's while the other 4 plants made up the bulk of the weight.

Ok enough rambling, more later.

GR