Xlr8's "Flo N Gro" Hydro Multiple Strains 2011

[jandre2k3]

Nice post Jandre, brings light to some things left mostly unstated as far as what it all means when it's measured.

Honestly, I would assume .5 on the Primo as it's the more common conversion number from what I can tell that Hanna uses. I really don't know why they use the .5 sometimes, other than it might be a legacy thing, where many loyal users are "used to" .5 and might freak if they have to get used to something new. Possible that they didn't always advocate .7 as more accurate, or .5 was an industry thing years back.

I can't vouch for this info, as it's not from the company, but found this list posted on another forum and it looks credible to me, however, I have not verified this list:

"Meters that use the 0.5 conversion are:
Hanna Primo
Tri-Meter
Hanna HI981504

Meters that use the 0.7 conversion are:
Hanna HI 9813-0
Hanna HI 9813-6
Hanna HI 983301N
Hanna HI 983311

Meters that are adjustable are:
Hanna HI98129
Hanna HI98311
Hanna HI981404
Hanna HI981404N
Oakton Meters

The Blue Lab Truncheon TDS/EC meter will display in PPM using both 0.5 and 0.7 factors and also display the EC."

WHAT?!?!? Now see... there's where I've been led astray on PPM. No fucking wonder I'm tanning babies
If this list is correct, I'm on 0.5!! I was going by the website's PPM and thinking they were just shit nutes, and all the time, I have an inaccurate TDS tester. My readings will be off to the LOW SIDE, and I up the PPM to get in range of website PPM

Now I know the conversion factor, I won't be burning them anymore!!

<<RME>> That just goes to serve as an anecdotal evidence of the above discussion.


FYI: I'm searching for an actual EC meter now, since all the nute companies I research give EC as well.

 

[Xlr8]

Been a little dry in here lately (don't get me wrong, it was good discussion!) Here's my Super Lemon Haze - I plan on making her a little mom. She's in coco coir, in a smart pot. The hydroton in the picture is just on top of the coir underneath (I have a layer on the bottom, too.)

She's just a little bugger, but that's okay - she's happy!

For fun, here's the gang in the Flo N Gro - will top them soon and clone the cuttings (with a little luck!):

I am enjoying my happy little hydro garden at the moment - and love the little coco coir smartpot SLH project. I have a new playground. Tomorrow, she gets a foliar of technaflora soluble seeweed extract.

So far, nice start to the new year...

 

[OG13]

Jandre, if you want to confirm what your conversion factor is, buy some cal fluid. If you buy .5 fluid and it reads 1000 (1 ec), then you have a .5 meter. If you take the fluid to a different meter (at the store maybe) it will read different for a .7 meter or a .65 meter. I am assuming all you guys that use PPM meters (EC meters) do a calibration at least 1x month, so you should have the cal solution already. If you don't, go get some.

 

[Numba03king]

Congrats, it's a great system! I had no trouble with the small amount of water/nutrients left in the buckets. None. My roots were bright white and as healthy as any roots I've had.

During the veg period, 3 flushes is probably enough in a day if you are using hydroton. Are you using hydroton? I think I'm flooding 4 times right now in veg, but it's probably overkill. In bloom phase, I flush about once every 3 hours during lights on, and once during lights off just to keep the roots damp, though that may not be necessary either. Worked great, and I'll do it the same this round.

I've had people suggest I should put an airstone in the reservoir to keep it aerated, but this is NOT necessary. The process of flooding and draining exposes the water/nutrients to PLENTY of oxygen and is sufficient. I've also had people suggest putting small airstones in each bucket to keep that "stagnant" water you mentioned full of D.O. (dissolved oxygen) but again, this did not prove necessary at all in my first run, and I've had growers with much experience in similar systems tell me these airstones aren't necessary as well.

The only thing I do outside of normal operation, is that I have a small waterpump that I just dangle into the reservoir that continually keeps the nutrients circulated to prevent settling/hot spots in the reservoir - I don't think this is necessary, but I had the pump and it does seem to do what I wanted from it. It's just sitting in the bottom of the reservoir churning the water/nutes gently.

One thing I am religious about: I use a product by Dutch Master Nutrients called "Zone" with every nutrient change. (Actually, I use a custom made version by Blue Planet Nutrients, but I don't think he has this for sale publically - at least yet). It's purpose is to keep the root zone healthy and happy, but will only work if you are using synthetic (non-organic) nutrients (it destroys beneficial organisms found in organics). Again, might not be necessary, but it's part of my process.

To recap some - other than the standard set-up, I use "Zone" and a waterpump that keeps the reservoir stirred up. No airstones, and I don't worry about that stagnant water. My roots looked brilliant white and incredibly healthy. You'll love the Flo N Gro - it's a terrific product from my initial experiences.

and let me know if I can ever answer any questions about the Flo N Gro or anything else for that matter!

Oh, and to

X

Thanks for the warm welcome and advice.

I am using hydroton. I think I might increase the flood frequency to four with lights on cause I do like the idea of keeping the water circulating more often. Right now I currently have an 8 inch disc airstone in my rez to keep the nutrients mixed as well as keeping the water aerated. It probably is overkill but I'm not using any disinfectant agent yet but I do have some h2o2 just in case. I looked into Zone and I'm intrigued by the description on DM's website but I'm curious as to what's in it. It sounds like it has a similar purpose as h2o2 but last longer in the rez. According to a couple forums I looked at, a few people claim it mainly made up of chlorimines which is already in my tap water. I was wondering if you could give me a better idea of what it is.

 

[Bassman59]

Jandre, if you want to confirm what your conversion factor is, buy some cal fluid. If you buy .5 fluid and it reads 1000 (1 ec), then you have a .5 meter. If you take the fluid to a different meter (at the store maybe) it will read different for a .7 meter or a .65 meter. I am assuming all you guys that use PPM meters (EC meters) do a calibration at least 1x month, so you should have the cal solution already. If you don't, go get some.

Indeed. I try to keep up on this too. When I get down to one more shot of fluid I get a backup bottle.

 

[Propa Gator]

Thanks for the warm welcome and advice.

I am using hydroton. I think I might increase the flood frequency to four with lights on cause I do like the idea of keeping the water circulating more often. Right now I currently have an 8 inch disc airstone in my rez to keep the nutrients mixed as well as keeping the water aerated. It probably is overkill but I'm not using any disinfectant agent yet but I do have some h2o2 just in case. I looked into Zone and I'm intrigued by the description on DM's website but I'm curious as to what's in it. It sounds like it has a similar purpose as h2o2 but last longer in the rez. According to a couple forums I looked at, a few people claim it mainly made up of chlorimines which is already in my tap water. I was wondering if you could give me a better idea of what it is.

For many years, Waterfarms by GH have cultivated happy cannabis in hydroton, fertigating with a 24/7 drip, airlifted from the rez below. Every healthy hydro rootball has one common factor: constant, penetrating circulation; not chemical agents. Same with air.
Welcome to 420Magazine

 

[Xlr8]

Thanks for the warm welcome and advice.

I am using hydroton. I think I might increase the flood frequency to four with lights on cause I do like the idea of keeping the water circulating more often. Right now I currently have an 8 inch disc airstone in my rez to keep the nutrients mixed as well as keeping the water aerated. It probably is overkill but I'm not using any disinfectant agent yet but I do have some h2o2 just in case. I looked into Zone and I'm intrigued by the description on DM's website but I'm curious as to what's in it. It sounds like it has a similar purpose as h2o2 but last longer in the rez. According to a couple forums I looked at, a few people claim it mainly made up of chlorimines which is already in my tap water. I was wondering if you could give me a better idea of what it is.

The active ingredient is a form of copper, (copper sulfate maybe?) which in low doses will kill detrimental (as well as beneficial) organisms. In high doses it would be lethal to the plant as well - then, so is h2o. Because it doesn't discriminate between beneficial vs. harmful, it shouldn't be used in organics. It's also good at reversing/fixing root issues. Honestly, the stuff is like magic when it comes to fixing unhealthy roots and keeping things healthy in the root zone.

Make sure you are keeping the nutrient reservoir cool if you are aerating it, as the increased oxygenation could actually create a welcoming environment for harmful bacteria if the nutrient solution is too warm. Especially if you aren't using something like "zone". If things are cool and clean, no worries. No chloramines in zone that I'm aware of. It's legit stuff, unless you want to do organic growing.

 

[Xlr8]

For many years, Waterfarms by GH have cultivated happy cannabis in hydroton, fertigating with a 24/7 drip, airlifted from the rez below. Every healthy hydro rootball has one common factor: constant, penetrating circulation; not chemical agents. Same with air.
Welcome to 420Magazine

Cool clean water/nutes, and air. Zone is good insurance and at problem solving, but no substitute for good circulation, cool res, and good hydro practices like regular res changes. I grew a 4.7z auto-flower in a custom water farm set-up with continuous drip and a bubble stone down below, I have a fondness for the waterfarm and will break it out again at some point... Zone is effective at low doses, and amounts to cheap insurance.

 

[Xlr8]

Jandre, if you want to confirm what your conversion factor is, buy some cal fluid. If you buy .5 fluid and it reads 1000 (1 ec), then you have a .5 meter. If you take the fluid to a different meter (at the store maybe) it will read different for a .7 meter or a .65 meter. I am assuming all you guys that use PPM meters (EC meters) do a calibration at least 1x month, so you should have the cal solution already. If you don't, go get some.

Indeed. I try to keep up on this too. When I get down to one more shot of fluid I get a backup bottle.

I calibrate ph meter weekly, TDS meter monthly. Dont know if this tip would work for others, but I've found that with my oakton meter it stays in calibration better if I use a few drops of 4.0 solution in the cap to store it vs. tap water or 7.0 fluid. I actually use "Genesis" brand storage solution now, it is about 4.0 also and lasts a long time if used sparingly. My weekly calibrations are often non events since moving to more acidic storage solution.

 

[Propa Gator]

I bought a $20 pH meter, two years ago. Never calibrated, nor stored it in any solution. I haven't used it in months, nor often prior to that. I don't believe nor trust it for shit. I do believe my color indicator drip stuff, but haven't stumbled across that little botelito in some time. Don't worry, be happy, plants do just fine. Obsessing over TMI is unpaid overtime.

 

[Xlr8]

I bought a $20 pH meter, two years ago. Never calibrated, nor stored it in any solution. I haven't used it in months, nor often prior to that. I don't believe nor trust it for shit. I do believe my color indicator drip stuff, but haven't stumbled across that little botelito in some time. Don't worry, be happy, plants do just fine. Obsessing over TMI is unpaid overtime.

I agree about the not stressing, but I feel in sync with my PH meter at this point. I have such radically alkaline water that it requires much manipulation to get it at proper PH - it's between 8.0-9.0. I don't have a feel for it without my meter and it often requires considerable adjustment.

This became truly enjoyable for me once I stopped stressing about things so much. However, I enjoy the detail.

 

[jandre2k3]

If you look under "Additional Info" here:

Hanna HI 98130 pH & Conductivity Pen High Range - Mitchell Instrument Company

You'll see the TDS Conversion Factor = "adjustable from 0.45 to 1.00"

The way you convert to/from a 500 to 700 meter is to first convert to EC, since all TDS meters measure the EC, then multiply by the conversion factor of the unit to display the TDS in PPM.

I'm going to re-state that, because it's so important:

TDS meters are INCAPABLE of an actual PPM reading, so they measure the EC and then multiply by SOME conversion factor to display "approximate" PPM's (which can vary greatly, depending on the conversion factor!).

So, for example, 1400 PPM on a 700 conversion meter is 2 EC (1400/700). 2 EC on a 500 conversion meter is 1000 PPM (2*500). So, what displays as 1400 PPM on a 700conversion meter, will read 1000 PPM on a 500 conversion meter. Get it???

EDIT: Just to take it one step further, a 500 conversion meter means it displays 1 EC as 500 PPM while a 700 meter will display 1 EC as 700 PPM.

Yes, this point, as many times it has been iterated, has not been missed.

 

[NorCaliwood]

I bought a $20 pH meter, two years ago. Never calibrated, nor stored it in any solution. I haven't used it in months, nor often prior to that. I don't believe nor trust it for shit. I do believe my color indicator drip stuff, but haven't stumbled across that little botelito in some time. Don't worry, be happy, plants do just fine. Obsessing over TMI is unpaid overtime.

They don't fail. But to each there own. I'm more like Propa here for sure. I have the drops but then I got good solid water. But then I'm not doing hydro, 'which I have with the drops' but, wow all them numbers are involed with ph? JK Thats 2 or 3 digets more than I care to figgure.
It's always whatever you are comfortable with. Just driving thru Xlr youngings are starting to take off. Looking good. I like the pot design on that unit you have. Looks like nice shape for roots. Does it get top heavy I wonder? Keepem Green

 

[Aaron Quix]

Jeebus Brother, you're almost 100 pages!! I'm sure I've missed a plethora of great info here...Just wanted to stop in and say thanks for lookin in on me over on mine. Got the Jills goin, feel free to drop by. MLAR!

 

[jandre2k3]

Questions answered form the horse's mouth. Exceprt of the important bits follows:

1) What conversion rate does my meter use?

The Primo which calibrates using the Hanna (HI7032)1382ppm solution is using a .50 conversion factor.

2) If 0.64 to 0.7 are the most accurate to estimate TDS/PPM from EC, then why would HI manufacture meters using the incorrect 0.5 scale?

One is not more accurate than another. Basically all TDS meters measure conductivity and then based upon the factor being used the meter multiplies the conductivity reading by the factor to report the ppm.<<Like I didn't already know that or something>>
Which factor you use is your choice.


Any reference materials you can give as data to back your answers would be greatly appreciated. I need to end this debate with a few colleges of mine as fast as possible. Thank you for your help in this matter.​

No supporting literature was given, unfortunately, but there we have it folks! I've been relying on a meter that converts on a different scale than the chart I was following, although, in the words of the techie at Hanna, is not wrong, just a "personal choice."

If there's a standard of measurement, there should not be a choice as to how to arrive there. This opens up other questions as well. Like, "How the HELL did we get 3 different factors?" and, "Why do we STILL have different factors, and why is the factor used not CLEARLY STATED on the product packaging of the meter!?"

Also, questions like, "Why can't the sky be purple?" still have no answer so I don't really expect an answer for the other two....................................:surrender:

I'm just going to stop, now, so this subject can

 

[Propa Gator]

jandre, you've stressed over numbers that are not critical IMO. They are TMI. Dosing chart @BPN is in volume, not PPM nor EC. The Hanna rep can have sex with himself, your grows go well using the 'wrong' scale, and X is doing good.
So... you deserve a break, eh?

 

[420GodsTrichome]

I concur!

 

[Xlr8]

Questions answered form the horse's mouth. Exceprt of the important bits follows:

1) What conversion rate does my meter use?

The Primo which calibrates using the Hanna (HI7032)1382ppm solution is using a .50 conversion factor.

2) If 0.64 to 0.7 are the most accurate to estimate TDS/PPM from EC, then why would HI manufacture meters using the incorrect 0.5 scale?

One is not more accurate than another. Basically all TDS meters measure conductivity and then based upon the factor being used the meter multiplies the conductivity reading by the factor to report the ppm.<<Like I didn't already know that or something>>
Which factor you use is your choice.


Any reference materials you can give as data to back your answers would be greatly appreciated. I need to end this debate with a few colleges of mine as fast as possible. Thank you for your help in this matter.​

No supporting literature was given, unfortunately, but there we have it folks! I've been relying on a meter that converts on a different scale than the chart I was following, although, in the words of the techie at Hanna, is not wrong, just a "personal choice."

If there's a standard of measurement, there should not be a choice as to how to arrive there. This opens up other questions as well. Like, "How the HELL did we get 3 different factors?" and, "Why do we STILL have different factors, and why is the factor used not CLEARLY STATED on the product packaging of the meter!?"

Also, questions like, "Why can't the sky be purple?" still have no answer so I don't really expect an answer for the other two....................................:surrender:

I'm just going to stop, now, so this subject can

Hi Jandre -

I shared the information in the initial post in case it was somehow useful to somebody else. Glad if this ended up being helpful, even if it left you a bit frustrated with Hanna. Thanks for sharing what you learned from Hanna on the subject as it helps answer a couple of questions that wrap up the subject a bit.

 

[Xlr8]

jandre, you've stressed over numbers that are not critical IMO. They are TMI. Dosing chart @BPN is in volume, not PPM nor EC. The Hanna rep can have sex with himself, your grows go well using the 'wrong' scale, and X is doing good.
So... you deserve a break, eh?

I concur!

Yup! It's all relative anyway, but it always helps to understand your tools better, so I'm glad if it helped some.

I've found that the BPN chart was fine for a couple of my plants, but it's still hotter than I'd prefer at times for others. For me, that's where measuring/tracking the PPM's helps.

Part of my initial point on the topic, was that my plants have been very happy using significantly LESS than recommended dosing, and to pursue that more efficient strategy it helps me to have a way to measure and track it.

I can relate to Jandre's frustration, though I'm in complete agreement that it's better to keep things simple and not get too caught up in the numbers and TMI territory.

 

[Mr Smith]

What's hot side for you? Give me a ideal of how you go about your waterchange. Is your reservoir measured so you know the true amount of water used? Measuring equipment. What are your go to numbers? Do you top off regularly? I wish to compare info with ya and I need to know what type of ppm meter, water ppm, and additives and boosters. Everything and anything bro and I'll do the same if you want. Its like comparing notes, my head is a lil fuzzy but I hope the message is understandable. I am probally going to ask a couple of other members that I am friendly with the same thing. We might see a trend or learn something new, pooling info can reduce trial and error.