300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

[Keith Lake]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

High TL,

I'm enjoying your posts

Hey Soniq. Where did your info on that come from? Looking at the site it says '11 wavelengths'...

From the Grow LED Hydro FAQ page at https://www.growledhydro.com/FAQ.html

In a nutshell it is a series of 9 different colored 3 watt LEDs (Light Emitting Diodes) that emit 12 wavelengths of light in all visible colors of the light spectrum. These lights are specially calibrated to interact with one another and target the absorption peaks of chlorophyll A, chlorophyll B, carotenoids, phytochrome, cryptochromes and phototropins. The chlorophyll is vital for photosynthesis, as you most likely know, and absorbs light most strongly in the visible spectrum of blue and red, but also in all other colors of visible light, even a tiny amount of green light. The cartenoids also absorb light most strongly in the blue/green spectrum, but they also serve to protect the chlorophyll from photo damage. Phytochrome is a photoreceptor, a pigment that plants use to detect light. It is sensitive to light in the red and far-red region of the visible spectrum. Many flowering plants use it to regulate the time of flowering based on the length of day and night (photoperiodism) and to set circadian rhythms. It also regulates other responses including the germination of seeds, elongation of seedlings, the size, shape and number of leaves, the synthesis of chlorophyll, and the straightening of the epicotyl or hypocotyl hook of dicot seedlings. Other plant photoreceptors include cryptochromes and phototropins, which are sensitive to light in the blue and ultra-violet regions of the spectrum.

I've had lots of discussions w/Mike but never about any design attributes If others on staff have I didn't become aware of it.

Maybe Mike will weigh in on this and help clarify. It's exciting times, and I feel like we're on the tail end of the industries tuning process where optimization is nearly finished. Soon to enter the cost reduction era; assuming this technology follows a traditional path.

I was under the impression the GLH panel specs had been...shall we say...'discussed' with 420...

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

High TL,

I'm enjoying your posts

^+1

I've had lots of discussions w/Mike but never about any design attributes If others on staff have I didn't become aware of it.

I've had very few discussions with GLH, but none of them about design or specs.

Maybe Mike will weigh in on this and help clarify. It's exciting times, and I feel like we're on the tail end of the industries tuning process where optimization is nearly finished. Soon to enter the cost reduction era; assuming this technology follows a traditional path.

Come a long ways from my 50w red/blue panels.

Those wouldn't bleach your buds even if they were touching the LED's.

no, they were not the primary light source

 

[Tyrone Hamilton]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

Loving this discussion - great posts by everyone!

 

[dogsnova]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

(Hey dogsnova - ever do those crazy-ass far-red Martian lighting cycle tests in your garden? Where's the thread? We want pics, man!)

I have done a few micro grows with the PAD Martian method (AKA) 24hr flowering.. The results were small buds but they had a very narcotic hit..The guys at Temporal Photonics claim to have increased the THC (in their grows) by as much as 3x using the PAD 24hr flowering method.. I think our micro grows increased the THC aprox 1.5x.. At least that what it seemed like to me anyway..IDK

I keep having problems with the timing. I can get it to work but it takes 13+ weeks to finish an 8 week strain.. And that's just one of the problems I'm facing...lol...All my Med patients, they actually own the plants I grow and most don't want to wait that long for their Meds.. I got one Med patient that is currently buying some led's to set up a PAD setup..

The main problem he is going to face is using three timers.. They constantly have to be adjusted..Yes you can overlap the two spectrums to compensate for the timers, but that causes delays in flowering... The 660nm and 730nm cycles have to be a perfect 1/2 hour, if not the timing is off and flowering is slowed... I can't quite get a handle on this...

Until the guys at Temporal Photonics come out with what they call a pre-set inverter. This inverter will have two timers on it and make a perfect 1/2 hour cycle between the 660nm and the 730nm.. This is one of the keys in getting a 24hr PAD setup to work properly..

Sal from Temporal Photonics is going to do a demo soon online somewhere sometime...I will be sure to let everyone know were to find it...

 

[The Lurker]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

Thanks all. I appreciate the lively discussion!

I assume then that you are familiar with the Emerson Enhancement effect?
Emerson Enhancement Effect in Chloroplast Reactions

Hey b - sure. No relation to Keith Emerson of Emerson, Lake and Palmer - and the enhancement effect that seems to occur when listening to ELP while high...

Yep, his work helped pave the way for an understanding of a second photosystem at work in Chlorophyll, among other things.
-------

Just like browsing on Amazon or YouTube and checking out the 'If you liked this, you might also like' related products, one of the habits I've gotten into when reading on Oxford Journals et. al. - when I have the time - is to investigate the sidebar/bottom linked 'This article has been cited by other articles:' related studies as well.

The great thing about science journals, like literary studies, is they always quote references to past work(s) upon which the current study was built, if there's an association. One can continue digging back in the timeline to help broaden one's understanding of how all these systems interrelate. Gives one a good foundation on the subject, like building a house with brick.

It's been a few years since I was a biology major at university. Went into a different field after that, but I can generally follow along with those studies. Helps to actually keep up with them, though...new information keeps coming out.

Too many hours poring through 'em, however, and my eyes start to glaze over. Those things generally make for pretty dry reading. :rolleyes3

Great cure for insomnia, too...

I have done a few micro grows with the PAD Martian method (AKA) 24hr flowering.. The results were small buds but they had a very narcotic hit..

Sal from Temporal Photonics is going to do a demo soon online somewhere sometime...I will be sure to let everyone know were to find it...

Cool dogs, Hope you can work out the timing issues. Keep us posted!

-TL

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

Sorry to hear that. I'd expect that to happen a bit farther away with these panels too, esp. with the amount of high-energy blue LEDs in them. Don't need nearly half that much - more ain't always better. At least we understand what bleaching is and why it occurs with these...

Everyone who uses the GLH panels to veg plants is amazed at the results, but I've also seen what I would consider excellent performance in flowering.

Do you think using more red and less blue would shift the performance to favor bloom over veg, yet still provide good veg performance?

Since LED vendors are fighting the bad rep LED's have for poor flowering, I'd think the tendency would be to go in the other direction?

 

[IrishBoy]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

Everyone who uses the GLH panels to veg plants is amazed at the results, but I've also seen what I would consider excellent performance in flowering.

Do you think using more red and less blue would shift the performance to favor bloom over veg, yet still provide good veg performance?

Since LED vendors are fighting the bad rep LED's have for poor flowering, I'd think the tendency would be to go in the other direction?

i think its would be ideal to have a light where you can flip a swtich for veg or flowering and its will adjust the red/blue.

all i know is the blue helps with flowering also and resin. i have a led lights that all red and it wont flower better then my red/blue one.

now with leds i think closer not always better, on my last grow some of the lower buds were the biggest, the reason why i think this is because the colors get to mix better farther away, but of course theirs fine line. 18" did good for me with my old 600w led

 

[go green]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

I agree with the two-stage lighting. Veg, and flowering, two dif. spectrums needed in that period of time. Lumigrow is coming out, or is out with some new spot lights that are in the red spectrum we need for flowering. As with their 330W unit, their little spots are expensive. However, I was going to give a couple of them a shot once I got some funding.

Hey SS, I still have my glo-panel as seen in that pic! Do you still use it? I have mine hanging from the ceiling just as like a disco light, lol, not plugged in or anything. I have considered using it, but didn't know if it would aid 55W worth of growth?

Good discussion guys! The next to come should be units that we can control the individual spectrums, or at least veg-flower type switch.

Peace dudes!

-Go

 

[dogsnova]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

Here is my take on the switch from veg to flower mode.

My Blueberry strain is very sensitive to blue light when flowering... If there is too much blue light present (like outdoors or a metal halide has) my strain has a very poor calyx to leaf ratio.. My strain needs to flower with a 3K spectrum or lower in order to have a good calyx to leaf ratio... I've tested it many times..

Now with that said. These GLH led's do look to have a great veg ability, witch tells me they have a very good blue spectrum in them. I'm currently flowering with these GLH 300w led's and my flowers do not have the POOR calyx to leaf ratio I would normally associate with a tight internode spacing light, i.e. Flowering with a metal Halide or 6500K T5's or the outdoor spectrum for that matter.

I guess what I'm trying to say is.. Based on the tight internod spacing I'm getting I would think this light would have too much blue in the mix for my particular strain, just like when I flower this strain with a metal halide it's WAAAY too much blue. BUT

My current calyx to leaf ratio with this 300w GLH led light is just like I'm flowering under a 3K spectrum...... Kind of cool if you ask me.

So in my opinion a properly tuned LED light can effectively have the best of both worlds without switching from a veg spectrum to a flowering spectrum. Now that's not to say a switch is not needed or wouldn't make this light better. I'm just saying it might not be necessary from what I'm seeing..

There is no doubt to my eyes that this is the first Full Spectrum light I've used on this strain that hasn't caused a poor calyx to leaf ratio... It seems to me this light will veg better then my 6500K spectrum and it flowers like a 3K spectrum.. That's something special if you ask me... I think most long time growers have been looking for light like this for years.. I know I have been...

 

[The Lurker]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

Everyone who uses the GLH panels to veg plants is amazed at the results, but I've also seen what I would consider excellent performance in flowering.

Do you think using more red and less blue would shift the performance to favor bloom over veg, yet still provide good veg performance?

Since LED vendors are fighting the bad rep LED's have for poor flowering, I'd think the tendency would be to go in the other direction?

Excellent question, SS. Given any two plants, the one that has the most vegetative growth coming out of veg is generally best positioned for putting on the most weight in flowering - I think we'd all agree on that.

That goes back to what you're trying to accomplish. Is it an all-in-one light, a veg-only light, or flowering-only? If you've got T5's/MH handling the veg, that could change what you're looking for.

I'd say most folks want an all-in-one light for cost as well as convenience.

Some of what I was going to say has already been said; I think the comments below from these guys say it pretty well:

i think its would be ideal to have a light where you can flip a swtich for veg or flowering and its will adjust the red/blue.

all i know is the blue helps with flowering also and resin. i have a led lights that all red and it wont flower better then my red/blue one.

now with leds i think closer not always better, on my last grow some of the lower buds were the biggest...

I agree with the two-stage lighting. Veg, and flowering, two dif. spectrums needed in that period of time. Lumigrow...

The next to come should be units that we can control the individual spectrums, or at least veg-flower type switch...

My Blueberry strain is very sensitive to blue light when flowering... If there is too much blue light present (like outdoors or a metal halide has) my strain has a very poor calyx to leaf ratio.. My strain needs to flower with a 3K spectrum or lower in order to have a good calyx to leaf ratio... I've tested it many times..

So in my opinion a properly tuned LED light can effectively have the best of both worlds without switching from a veg spectrum to a flowering spectrum. Now that's not to say a switch is not needed or wouldn't make this light better...

I'd prefer a light to have separate (variable) pots for the blue and red/other spectrums, like the Lumigrows, as long as they're cost-effective - but overall have it be a little flower-centric. That way you could adjust as needed and still produce the most light for the cycle we care about most.

Here's the thing: There is such a thing as too much blue light. Blue light is essential, but you can still have stellar growth using much less in a panel - and, it's better for the plants.
--------

Plants have several mechanisms for dealing with over-stimulation of the reaction centers (namely, through flavonoid (anthocyanin) and carotenoid production), but those processes (e.g. Non-photochemical quenching (NPQ)) basically take energy away from the building of plant tissues we're interested in. I'd rather not put the plant under additional stress so it can focus on making flowers instead.

And the best way to harm a plant is with UV, and high levels of blue light radiation.

If you count the white LEDs as being mostly-blues, these panels have about 27% blue-vs-everything else. A good range that will still promote excellent veg is ~10-15% (max) blue. You simply don't need more - especially when you could be utilizing more in other wavelengths.

Too much blue light will also reduce the overall net efficiency/availability of the total amount of blue-absorbing chlorophyll molecules per unit leaf volume (I'll spare you the sci/tech details).

If you start a plant under conditions that exclude UV and (high-intensity) blue (i.e. indoors), you can actually develop (grow) a much more efficient plant, in terms of how it processes light for flowering.

Do you think using more red and less blue would shift the performance to favor bloom over veg, yet still provide good veg performance?

I'd think the tendency would be to go in the other direction?

So - Yes!

-TL

 

[dogsnova]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

Lurker, that's some great Blue light info right there....Thanks..

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

I agree dog, *great* post TL.

Been thinking about something Irish mentioned that I haven't seen discussed, and has to do with distance and blending of colors.

On my previous grow with the HSS light, this lack of blending was very apparent when I dropped the light down to 3-6" in bloom.

The HSS design is passively cooled by spacing the LED's far apart on the board, and when I dropped the light down, you could actually see individual colors on the canopy. I'm pretty sure there wasn't enough room for the colors to blend well, and each of those 4 plants were getting a different overall spectrum.

This issue was exacerbated by the fact that at 180w, and a design biased more towards coverage than intensity, I had to have the light very close to the plants, but I'm wondering how the color blend issue plays out in other designs also.

thanks again for an extremely useful and informative post TL!

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

Hey SS, I still have my glo-panel as seen in that pic! Do you still use it? I have mine hanging from the ceiling just as like a disco light, lol, not plugged in or anything. I have considered using it, but didn't know if it would aid 55W worth of growth?



-Go

You know, I've never used them alone, so I really don't know how they would do.

I'm curious about how they would work myself, because I really won't know how much they add as supplemental lighting until I use them as primary.

For all I know, they might just be adding 110w of disco ambience to the environment and not much else.

thanks brother Go!

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

Here is my take on the switch from veg to flower mode.

My Blueberry strain is very sensitive to blue light when flowering... If there is too much blue light present (like outdoors or a metal halide has) my strain has a very poor calyx to leaf ratio.. My strain needs to flower with a 3K spectrum or lower in order to have a good calyx to leaf ratio... I've tested it many times..

Now with that said. These GLH led's do look to have a great veg ability, witch tells me they have a very good blue spectrum in them. I'm currently flowering with these GLH 300w led's and my flowers do not have the POOR calyx to leaf ratio I would normally associate with a tight internode spacing light, i.e. Flowering with a metal Halide or 6500K T5's or the outdoor spectrum for that matter.

I guess what I'm trying to say is.. Based on the tight internod spacing I'm getting I would think this light would have too much blue in the mix for my particular strain, just like when I flower this strain with a metal halide it's WAAAY too much blue. BUT

My current calyx to leaf ratio with this 300w GLH led light is just like I'm flowering under a 3K spectrum...... Kind of cool if you ask me.

So in my opinion a properly tuned LED light can effectively have the best of both worlds without switching from a veg spectrum to a flowering spectrum. Now that's not to say a switch is not needed or wouldn't make this light better. I'm just saying it might not be necessary from what I'm seeing..

There is no doubt to my eyes that this is the first Full Spectrum light I've used on this strain that hasn't caused a poor calyx to leaf ratio... It seems to me this light will veg better then my 6500K spectrum and it flowers like a 3K spectrum.. That's something special if you ask me... I think most long time growers have been looking for light like this for years.. I know I have been...

I've been hoping you would spill the beans .

I know you're an observant grower.

From what you've shared about growing the same strain(s) over several grows, and your degree of experience with HID grows and results, your above report rocks .

I'm gonna post some pics over in the other journal right after this post. I'm thinking this light is something special too.

I got my 400w HID tent tuned really well. All we need is some clones.

It's going to be a *great* comparison.

thanks for weighing in dog

 

[go green]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

Special...

I haven't used too many types of veg light, low wattage MH, and CFL's, but the 600W GLH veg's insane...

That is interesting about your plants and the blue light Dog, I am glad it seems to be the right fit for it's needs!

can't wait for the show SS!

-Go

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

Update on the mom and clones.

Yep, mom is singular now. The one with stem rot didn't make it. I took as many cuts as I could and put them in RR plugs under a dome.

I first had them all in the jelly cubes, but they weren't looking good after a couple of hours, so I switched to the RR's. They weren't looking so hot when I cut them, so not sure how well they're going to do, but nothing ventured/nothing gained, so gave it a shot.

Here's the remaining mom and the cuts. The three flowering clones from Vicky are in the background. I also switched them to RR plugs, because the jelly in the cubes was drying out and splitting around the stems. These Gel2Root cubes I had were a bit old, so that may be part of the problem. I'd like to give this product a fair shot, so I'll get some new ones.

The PPP mom is spreading out well with good secondary growth.

Do most people wait until there are alternate nodes on the mother before taking cuttings?

 

[go green]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

Looks great SS. In about a week your plugs should have roots showing through, at least the bottom, if not the sides as well. I keep my RR's in the bio-dome tray, as it keeps the moisture to air content in perfect measure.

Glad you could get as much as you could off of the rotten mother. Sounds horrible huh, to say your mother was rotten.

Its all good! Keep rockin' SS!!!

-Go

 

[dogsnova]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

Do most people wait until there are alternate nodes on the mother before taking cuttings?

I do....

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

.

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

Looks great SS. In about a week your plugs should have roots showing through, at least the bottom, if not the sides as well. I keep my RR's in the bio-dome tray, as it keeps the moisture to air content in perfect measure.

Glad you could get as much as you could off of the rotten mother. Sounds horrible huh, to say your mother was rotten.

Its all good! Keep rockin' SS!!!

-Go

I got 8 cuttings from her, including the main top, and they're looking good so far.

I've got those 8 PPP cuts, and the 3 flowering cuts I took from Vicky.

The remaining PPP mom is doing great.

I'd like to start the comparison with at least 4 clones in each tent, and then cull one or two as needed as the grow progresses.

roots mon, we need roots!

I do....

cool, thanks for the feedback dog.

I may top her in addition to the LST, so she produces lots of clone sites.

I'm feeling good about the PPP clones I've got in the RR's. Before she got the stem rot, that mom was actually a little bigger than the other one, so her clones should grow out nice. I don't think she was genetically predisposed to having mold issues or anything like that. I think that was just due to my inexperience with the RR's.

I plan to keep using them, but will modify my watering technique when I do.

thanks dog