re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration
come from Mexico in a gas tank if your luck sometimes its in a tire instead
come from Mexico in a gas tank if your luck sometimes its in a tire instead
300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration
- Thread starter Keith Lake
- Start date
re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration
ah yes, the petroleum cure, lmao
ah yes, the petroleum cure, lmao
re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration
thanks Marley
me too brother!
should be soon!
Very nice, detailed instructions on your LST SS.
thanks Marley
Anxiously awaiting the smoke report.
Marley
me too brother!
should be soon!
re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration
Great lst guide. I will have to lst my next run. I have just been doing the set it and forget it approach. But this is so simple it's only slightly more than ignoring your plant.
I have also become veryinterested in hempy buckets from your grows. Hw often did you end up watering?
As soon as my ionic line of nutes run out im grabbing some oc+. Your making things really simple ss
Great lst guide. I will have to lst my next run. I have just been doing the set it and forget it approach. But this is so simple it's only slightly more than ignoring your plant.
I have also become veryinterested in hempy buckets from your grows. Hw often did you end up watering?
As soon as my ionic line of nutes run out im grabbing some oc+. Your making things really simple ss
re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration
Wow, I had some catching up to do.
I laughed my ass off on this comment here!
Safety glasses are a staple in my garden now. I came REAL close one time to losing an eye in the garden. It would be losing a eye too. Those green bastards hide in there. You would never know it.
I also had some comments in regards to stakes and root damage. In the past I used to have this 3/8 tube around. Forgot where I got it, anyways I cut pieces the height of the pot. I would put them when I transplanted. It made a nice little pocket for the stake to sit in. A earplug in each one prevented them from getting filled with soil when I would water. Wow, flashback! I don't do that now. To much work.
Sorry for the ramble brother. The garden was and is amazing!
I just noticed the paper clips. Those things are invaluable. I use them very much the same way that you do.
Wow, I had some catching up to do.
I laughed my ass off on this comment here!
SettingSun said:
Safety glasses are a staple in my garden now. I came REAL close one time to losing an eye in the garden. It would be losing a eye too. Those green bastards hide in there. You would never know it.
I also had some comments in regards to stakes and root damage. In the past I used to have this 3/8 tube around. Forgot where I got it, anyways I cut pieces the height of the pot. I would put them when I transplanted. It made a nice little pocket for the stake to sit in. A earplug in each one prevented them from getting filled with soil when I would water. Wow, flashback! I don't do that now. To much work.
Sorry for the ramble brother. The garden was and is amazing!
I just noticed the paper clips. Those things are invaluable. I use them very much the same way that you do.
re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration
High Karr!
At peak bloom, the HID buckets needed to be watered every 3 days, and the LED buckets every 4-5 days. This was using coco/perlite 70/30.
The way to get extended watering frequencies is to use a garden sprayer or submersible pump in a bucket with a garden wand, and use a spray pattern that is fine enough to allow the medium time to absorb the water before it runs through, yet fast enough so that you're not standing there all day.
On garden sprayers, sometimes it helps to open up the hole a bit on the end of the sprayer in order to increase the rate of flow.
By saturating the medium like that instead of using a watering can, I can nearly *double* the amount of water the medium holds.
With my submersible pump and garden wand set to the "shower" setting, I can water very fast *and* completely saturate the medium. With a garden sprayer, it takes longer, but I still use one for smaller containers because keeps them from drying out too fast.
It's amazing how much more water retention I get when I give the water time to soak in. Media like hydroton and lava rock, that have a bad rap for water retention, can hold quite a bit of water if you spray it and give it time to absorb. The spray action also aerates the water well so the roots get lots of oxygen. The patience it takes to do it is easy to generate, knowing I'm doubling my watering interval.
I use some kind of a sprayer, big or little, to water all my pots and containers, big or little, because it creates less work for me in the long run, and because I'm convinced that it's one of the details that contribute to growing healthy plants.
The LST method is stump simple and takes about 5 min per plant or less once you've done it a couple times.
The OC+ and hempy combo is about as simple as it gets, but it's not like you're compromising performance or quality to gain that simplicity, because you're not.
Many of us like to complicate things and feed our ladies all kinds of goodies, so we're targets for vendors who make something simple into something complicated, like feeding a plant.
There are organic versions of these ferts also. I currently have a couple of plants in soil with some Mater Magic, a time-release organic fert made by Dynamite, and it's working really well. The plant I LST'ed in the pics above is
one of them.
sorry for all the sativa-driven rambling
Great lst guide. I will have to lst my next run. I have just been doing the set it and forget it approach. But this is so simple it's only slightly more than ignoring your plant.
I have also become veryinterested in hempy buckets from your grows. Hw often did you end up watering?
As soon as my ionic line of nutes run out im grabbing some oc+. Your making things really simple ss
High Karr!
At peak bloom, the HID buckets needed to be watered every 3 days, and the LED buckets every 4-5 days. This was using coco/perlite 70/30.
The way to get extended watering frequencies is to use a garden sprayer or submersible pump in a bucket with a garden wand, and use a spray pattern that is fine enough to allow the medium time to absorb the water before it runs through, yet fast enough so that you're not standing there all day.
On garden sprayers, sometimes it helps to open up the hole a bit on the end of the sprayer in order to increase the rate of flow.
By saturating the medium like that instead of using a watering can, I can nearly *double* the amount of water the medium holds.
With my submersible pump and garden wand set to the "shower" setting, I can water very fast *and* completely saturate the medium. With a garden sprayer, it takes longer, but I still use one for smaller containers because keeps them from drying out too fast.
It's amazing how much more water retention I get when I give the water time to soak in. Media like hydroton and lava rock, that have a bad rap for water retention, can hold quite a bit of water if you spray it and give it time to absorb. The spray action also aerates the water well so the roots get lots of oxygen. The patience it takes to do it is easy to generate, knowing I'm doubling my watering interval.
I use some kind of a sprayer, big or little, to water all my pots and containers, big or little, because it creates less work for me in the long run, and because I'm convinced that it's one of the details that contribute to growing healthy plants.
The LST method is stump simple and takes about 5 min per plant or less once you've done it a couple times.
The OC+ and hempy combo is about as simple as it gets, but it's not like you're compromising performance or quality to gain that simplicity, because you're not
. Many of us like to complicate things and feed our ladies all kinds of goodies, so we're targets for vendors who make something simple into something complicated, like feeding a plant.
There are organic versions of these ferts also. I currently have a couple of plants in soil with some Mater Magic, a time-release organic fert made by Dynamite, and it's working really well. The plant I LST'ed in the pics above is
one of them.
sorry for all the sativa-driven rambling
re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration
and they know when I'm high too, because they get even sneakier.
yep, ingenious, but too much work, and I can't even remember to plant off-center half the time when I want to, lol
thank you Velo!
Yep, they're great. I use the larger ones to hold the tent flaps open and lotsa other stuff.
They're good for being able to do LST with grow bags too.
thanks again Velo
and they know when I'm high too, because they get even sneakier
.yep, ingenious, but too much work, and I can't even remember to plant off-center half the time when I want to, lol
thank you Velo!
Yep, they're great. I use the larger ones to hold the tent flaps open and lotsa other stuff.
They're good for being able to do LST with grow bags too.
thanks again Velo
re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration
it's still been raining and humid, but keeping the open jars in a cardboard box worked well to draw the moisture out.
I don't think we're getting rain today, so I'll keep them in the box with the lids off, and they should get down to 60-65%, so I can weigh them later today.
man, I'm tired of this rain and gloomy weather.
it's still been raining and humid, but keeping the open jars in a cardboard box worked well to draw the moisture out.
I don't think we're getting rain today, so I'll keep them in the box with the lids off, and they should get down to 60-65%, so I can weigh them later today
. man, I'm tired of this rain and gloomy weather.
re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration
thanks for the above info answering my questions, i totally missed it.
in regards to watering your hempy bucket, i like the idea of high surface area watering, making sure it spreads enough and slow enough to be able to absorb. What about having a drainage tube in the hempy bucket that allows you to collect and not get messy when filling the buckets(by directing the runoff into a bucket). i have seen people do this before although its not traditional hempy. well if you have the bucket drain you could simply hold it up in the air while watering(or just plug the hempy hole) and fill the bucke with water. let it sit for a few seconds then remove plug or lower the drain hose and it would level out to the hole once again.
if your usig oc+ this would be even nicer as your not really wasting a nutrient mix while it runs off.
so what rh are you looking for in the jars? i want to adopt your RH curing approach as when i have to guess at things its not the best.
im going to end up cloning your grows here haha.
thanks for the above info answering my questions, i totally missed it.
in regards to watering your hempy bucket, i like the idea of high surface area watering, making sure it spreads enough and slow enough to be able to absorb. What about having a drainage tube in the hempy bucket that allows you to collect and not get messy when filling the buckets(by directing the runoff into a bucket). i have seen people do this before although its not traditional hempy. well if you have the bucket drain you could simply hold it up in the air while watering(or just plug the hempy hole) and fill the bucke with water. let it sit for a few seconds then remove plug or lower the drain hose and it would level out to the hole once again.
if your usig oc+ this would be even nicer as your not really wasting a nutrient mix while it runs off.
so what rh are you looking for in the jars? i want to adopt your RH curing approach as when i have to guess at things its not the best.
im going to end up cloning your grows here haha.
astroastro
New Member
re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration
Sun- again- great grow. When you begin considering the variables you will need to control when growing in a totally enclosed environment, you may want to consider the *potential* for problems associated with oxygen in the sealed grow space.
When the plants are photosynthizing at high rates, they will be evolving a lot of oxygen. Chlorophyll is an organic molecule with a metal core- magnesium. Mg, like most metals, has a high affinity for oxygen. The increase in atmosheric oxygen pressure *may* place additional stress or perhaps induce chlorophyll bleaching (chlorophyll death). It would be interesting to see the results of such a test as it progresses, for sure. A method to vent the grow space at regular intervals and subsequently re-enrich with CO2 may be beneficial, or some other method to alleviate this potential problem.
My experience with CO2 has always been extremely positive, but consistant atmosheric gas control in the grow space can be tricky. In addition, while it may be true that the CO2 could allow you to run the grow space at higher temperatures, I have found that the best results remain when temps are maintained at 80F or less, maybe 72 - 80, which is probably not much different than in non-CO2 enriched environments. I don't think the higher temps are actually advantageous even with CO2, and other problems with biologicals- bugs, molds, etc. tend to get aggravated.
Are you planning to do, or would you be interested in doing any LED v. LED side-by-side grows?
Sun- again- great grow. When you begin considering the variables you will need to control when growing in a totally enclosed environment, you may want to consider the *potential* for problems associated with oxygen in the sealed grow space.
When the plants are photosynthizing at high rates, they will be evolving a lot of oxygen. Chlorophyll is an organic molecule with a metal core- magnesium. Mg, like most metals, has a high affinity for oxygen. The increase in atmosheric oxygen pressure *may* place additional stress or perhaps induce chlorophyll bleaching (chlorophyll death). It would be interesting to see the results of such a test as it progresses, for sure. A method to vent the grow space at regular intervals and subsequently re-enrich with CO2 may be beneficial, or some other method to alleviate this potential problem.
My experience with CO2 has always been extremely positive, but consistant atmosheric gas control in the grow space can be tricky. In addition, while it may be true that the CO2 could allow you to run the grow space at higher temperatures, I have found that the best results remain when temps are maintained at 80F or less, maybe 72 - 80, which is probably not much different than in non-CO2 enriched environments. I don't think the higher temps are actually advantageous even with CO2, and other problems with biologicals- bugs, molds, etc. tend to get aggravated.
Are you planning to do, or would you be interested in doing any LED v. LED side-by-side grows?
re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration
you're welcome bro
Hempy buckets make watering and collecting runoff easier than regular pots.
After I drilled the hole in my hempy buckets, I installed 1/2" rubber grommets so that I could insert drainage tubes into the holes and drain the buckets into a common waste container, but to have that work well, you need to have the buckets up higher than your waste container, and I just didn't have enough headroom to do that properly. I kept the buckets on the deck and used a shallow tray for a couple of waterings, but found that it was easier to just put each bucket in a plant saucer and use a wet-dry shop vac to suck up the runoff.
Plugging the hole and watering until you see the water table rise to the top, and then unplugging the hole is probably the best way to water hempies.
That method produces the same nice oxygenation as an ebb & flow setup, maybe even better, as when the water runs out freely, you can hear all the fresh O2 crackling and popping as it gets sucked down into the media. I love that sound.
yup, and seeing the water table rise all the way to the top ensures that the bucket is fully saturated, so it's a really good way to do it. Very rewarding to unplug the hole and listen to and watch the dynamics.
The ladies definitely take note of all this thought and care, and reward their gardener accordingly.
I don't like guessing either, and I'm finding these little meters very helpful in knowing when it's safe to jar the buds, what effect I'm getting from the burping, and when to stop the cure.
I avoid using esoteric or non-mainstream products and techniques so that people can do that if they want to, and it makes my day to know that I'm helping people grow their own
Here's the lowdown on using the RH meters to cure. This was posted earlier in the journal by Irish, and credit goes to a grower named Simon.
"This method is particularly effective for folks who are starting out, those looking to maximize quality in a shorter period of time, and folks who's like to produce a connoisseur-quality product each and every time with no guesswork involved.
It's a very simple and effective process:
Cut the product, trim it per your preference, but don't dry it until the stems snap. Take it down while the stems still have some flex, but the product feel dry on the outside. This is a perfect opportunity to drop the dry-feeling flowers onto a screen and collect prime-quality kief that would otherwise get lost in the jar.
Jar the product, along with a Caliber III hygrometer. One can be had on Ebay for ~$20. Having tested a number of hygrometers - digital and analog - this model in particular produced consistent, accurate results. Then, watch the readings:
+70% RH - too wet, needs to sit outside the jar to dry for 12-24 hours, depending.
65-70% RH - the product is almost in the cure zone, if you will. It can be slowly brought to optimum RH by opening the lid for 2-4 hours.
60-65% RH - the stems snap, the product feels a bit sticky, and it is curing.
55-60% RH - at this point it can be stored for an extended period (3 months or more) without worrying about mold. The product will continue to cure.
Below 55% RH - the RH is too low for the curing process to take place. The product starts to feel brittle. Once you've hit this point, nothing will make it better. Adding moisture won't restart the curing process; it will just make the product wet. If you measure a RH below 55% don't panic. Read below:
Obviously, the product need time to sweat in the jar. As such, accurate readings won't be seen for ~24 hours, assuming the flowers are in the optimal cure zone. If you're curing the product for long-term storage, give the flowers 4-5 days for an accurate reading. If the product is sill very wet, a +70% RH reading will show within hours. If you see the RH rising ~1% per hour, keep a close eye on the product, as it's likely too moist."
you're welcome bro
Hempy buckets make watering and collecting runoff easier than regular pots.
After I drilled the hole in my hempy buckets, I installed 1/2" rubber grommets so that I could insert drainage tubes into the holes and drain the buckets into a common waste container, but to have that work well, you need to have the buckets up higher than your waste container, and I just didn't have enough headroom to do that properly. I kept the buckets on the deck and used a shallow tray for a couple of waterings, but found that it was easier to just put each bucket in a plant saucer and use a wet-dry shop vac to suck up the runoff.
Plugging the hole and watering until you see the water table rise to the top, and then unplugging the hole is probably the best way to water hempies.
That method produces the same nice oxygenation as an ebb & flow setup, maybe even better, as when the water runs out freely, you can hear all the fresh O2 crackling and popping as it gets sucked down into the media. I love that sound.
yup, and seeing the water table rise all the way to the top ensures that the bucket is fully saturated, so it's a really good way to do it. Very rewarding to unplug the hole and listen to and watch the dynamics.
The ladies definitely take note of all this thought and care, and reward their gardener accordingly.
I don't like guessing either, and I'm finding these little meters very helpful in knowing when it's safe to jar the buds, what effect I'm getting from the burping, and when to stop the cure.
I avoid using esoteric or non-mainstream products and techniques so that people can do that if they want to, and it makes my day to know that I'm helping people grow their own
Here's the lowdown on using the RH meters to cure. This was posted earlier in the journal by Irish, and credit goes to a grower named Simon.
"This method is particularly effective for folks who are starting out, those looking to maximize quality in a shorter period of time, and folks who's like to produce a connoisseur-quality product each and every time with no guesswork involved.
It's a very simple and effective process:
Cut the product, trim it per your preference, but don't dry it until the stems snap. Take it down while the stems still have some flex, but the product feel dry on the outside. This is a perfect opportunity to drop the dry-feeling flowers onto a screen and collect prime-quality kief that would otherwise get lost in the jar.
Jar the product, along with a Caliber III hygrometer. One can be had on Ebay for ~$20. Having tested a number of hygrometers - digital and analog - this model in particular produced consistent, accurate results. Then, watch the readings:
+70% RH - too wet, needs to sit outside the jar to dry for 12-24 hours, depending.
65-70% RH - the product is almost in the cure zone, if you will. It can be slowly brought to optimum RH by opening the lid for 2-4 hours.
60-65% RH - the stems snap, the product feels a bit sticky, and it is curing.
55-60% RH - at this point it can be stored for an extended period (3 months or more) without worrying about mold. The product will continue to cure.
Below 55% RH - the RH is too low for the curing process to take place. The product starts to feel brittle. Once you've hit this point, nothing will make it better. Adding moisture won't restart the curing process; it will just make the product wet. If you measure a RH below 55% don't panic. Read below:
Obviously, the product need time to sweat in the jar. As such, accurate readings won't be seen for ~24 hours, assuming the flowers are in the optimal cure zone. If you're curing the product for long-term storage, give the flowers 4-5 days for an accurate reading. If the product is sill very wet, a +70% RH reading will show within hours. If you see the RH rising ~1% per hour, keep a close eye on the product, as it's likely too moist."
re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration
TOTAL *WET* WEIGHTS:
HID - 929g
LED - 977g
There's nothing like handling and trimming buds to get a good feel for any differences, and there were some.
The wet weights may not reflect things very accurately, because I like to stop watering my plants several days before harvest, and therefore the LED plants were quite a bit drier when they were harvested a couple of days later than the HID plants. The fan leaves on the LED plants in the pics show how dry they were on harvest day.
So, I wouldn't put too much faith in the wet weights. When the RH on both groups of buds is at 60%, I'll post the dry weights, which should be accurate.
I couldn't find my second pair of snips, but that turned out to be a good thing, because I figured out a way to semi-quantify resin production. I just used a razor blade to scrape the goo off the snips and pressed it.
The difference in amount of resin accurately reflects the difference in how the buds feel. The LED buds are more heavily coated with resin than the HID buds. One interesting observation is that while the LED buds have more resin, the resin on the HID buds is stickier and more tenacious. I didn't wear gloves, and if I tried to pick up my camera when trimming the HID buds, it would leave gummy resin on it, whereas when trimming the LED buds, I had much more resin on my hands, but it didn't stick to the camera, so I could handle it without problems. I have no idea what the significance of this might be, just reporting it.
The LED buds took me longer to trim because they have a lower calyx/leaf ratio. The LED buds had more little sugar leaves, which were very heavily coated with trichs.
Trimming both groups felt very different. With the HID buds, trimming the leaves felt like cutting paper. The fleshy sugar leaves on the LED buds felt like cutting through velvet. Very different feel for each group.
If I wasn't doing this harvest as a comparison, I wouldn't have trimmed the LED buds down as much because the sugar leaves were so coated with trichs, but I had already trimmed the HID buds fairly tight, so I trimmed the LED buds the same way.
The lower calix/leaf ratio on the LED buds does not affect potency since the leaves were crusted with trichs, but it does mean that trimming tales a bit longer, at least with this strain.
No smoke report yet, but the scissor hash is just *excellent*. It expands a lot and the first hit I took had me coughing for a few minutes, but after that it just tastes really good and has me feeling just fine
I'm going to post a few more random bud shots tonight.
have a great weekend peeps, and.....
JohnnyPotseed
New Member
re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration
Really anticipating the dry weights, I have been checking every day for some time now. Glad to hear today might be the day! I was considering a Stealth Grow LED but their lack of even one grow journal, and the abundance of Spectra grow journals like this fine example, has steered me in the right direction. Thank you for your contributions SS, these LED journals are invaluable. A true pioneer.
Really anticipating the dry weights, I have been checking every day for some time now. Glad to hear today might be the day! I was considering a Stealth Grow LED but their lack of even one grow journal, and the abundance of Spectra grow journals like this fine example, has steered me in the right direction. Thank you for your contributions SS, these LED journals are invaluable. A true pioneer.
re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration
^ it was my understanding that more co2 is a good thing, but in order to utilize the full 1500(or so) you needed to higher temps (mid to high 80s) to open up whatever receptors in the plant that takes in co2. I have no personal experience with co2 supplementation and especially at different temperatures. Its just what i have been reading, and as we all know it is not necessarily right.
With a sealed room from what i have seen these rooms are really not air tight. Sealed more refers to as little leaks as possible and no exhaust vent exchanging air. many sealed rooms would be in tents which are by no means sealed, and i would imagine without the addition of oxygen the constant addition of c02 would make the tents balloon, which doesn't seem to happen either.
The large grow ops i see online what take the time to actually silicon and seal an entire room generally seem to have an air exchanger and they exchange the air here and there even though they are supplimenting with co2.
if you are growing in a tent what about keeping a small passive vent on top open? the co2 is heavier so co2 loss out the passive vent should be minimal and excessive oxygen pressure would freely vent. sound good?
^ it was my understanding that more co2 is a good thing, but in order to utilize the full 1500(or so) you needed to higher temps (mid to high 80s) to open up whatever receptors in the plant that takes in co2. I have no personal experience with co2 supplementation and especially at different temperatures. Its just what i have been reading, and as we all know it is not necessarily right.
With a sealed room from what i have seen these rooms are really not air tight. Sealed more refers to as little leaks as possible and no exhaust vent exchanging air. many sealed rooms would be in tents which are by no means sealed, and i would imagine without the addition of oxygen the constant addition of c02 would make the tents balloon, which doesn't seem to happen either.
The large grow ops i see online what take the time to actually silicon and seal an entire room generally seem to have an air exchanger and they exchange the air here and there even though they are supplimenting with co2.
if you are growing in a tent what about keeping a small passive vent on top open? the co2 is heavier so co2 loss out the passive vent should be minimal and excessive oxygen pressure would freely vent. sound good?
re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration
hey bud. just wondering, when i give my MF its 24 hr dark period before i chop. well i cant do it in my tent. i was wondering if i can just bring it in house and put a black trash bag over it, but try and keep it away from plant? will this be toxic to plant, do u know?
hey bud. just wondering, when i give my MF its 24 hr dark period before i chop. well i cant do it in my tent. i was wondering if i can just bring it in house and put a black trash bag over it, but try and keep it away from plant? will this be toxic to plant, do u know?
re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration
Just having a bag over it with no ventilation becomes a toxic situation pretty quickly, but not sure how much that matters in the final 24 hours, and I don't know how it would affect the process.
As far as the trash bag off-gassing, if you leave one outside in the sun for a few days first to off-gas, I'd imagine that wouldn't be an issue, but I just don't know.
Do you have a closet you could stick it in for 24hrs?
Just having a bag over it with no ventilation becomes a toxic situation pretty quickly, but not sure how much that matters in the final 24 hours, and I don't know how it would affect the process.
As far as the trash bag off-gassing, if you leave one outside in the sun for a few days first to off-gas, I'd imagine that wouldn't be an issue, but I just don't know.
Do you have a closet you could stick it in for 24hrs?
re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration
ya i dont think ill try the bag. im in apartment and the closet is the wifes closet, lol. dont think she would like her clothes smellin. lol.
big cardboard box be ok?
ya i dont think ill try the bag. im in apartment and the closet is the wifes closet, lol. dont think she would like her clothes smellin. lol.
big cardboard box be ok?
