Decoding The Holy Grail: Terpene & Cannabinoid Retention: Decarb to Extraction

[Amy Gardner]

Decoding The Holy Grail: Terpene & Cannabinoid Retention - Decarb to Extraction

Can we put together a list of important things to remember while making our own medicine? Like a recipe with pictures and everything?

I don't know what is easiest for you Amy. What would make things better for you?

Thanks DeVille - I don't need a recipe with pics or anything. And other folks have done that in their threads, journals and blogs actually. I've made oil - and had someone make it for me. It's more the specific info about times & temps for different kinds of decarb effects, and how it translates to Cannabinoids int he final product, that I'm seeking here. It was this that Kickin' thought should be fairly easily gleaned from reading the thread, but not everyone has been able to pick that up - so I'm after these guys giving me some kind of 'nutshell' that I can use tp base my oil making experimentations on. A departure point let's say, for how to get CBD decarb, or THC decarb, if that's indeed different... (which will also help me manipulate for less decarb if that's what I want).

There is one thing that confuses me. Why the decarb before boiling? Won't the boiling process in fact decarb the material. Is that bake in the oven step really necessary?

I think you're right that the decarb happens in the oil as well (diffuse & decarb all at once). I think, the pre bake is thought it make it more efficient - but I don't really know and haven't read anyone actually say that. That's what happens in the FHO that Sue says makes the best form of oil as far as all her experiments have gone. SO it's a good question to ask.

 

[Amy Gardner]

My wife has had more than her share of physical problems combined with 10 years of every kind of pain medication on the market. She also has severe Restless Leg Syndrome. Climbing out of the fog of the opiates has increased the RLS. Damned if you do..... She is down to 7.5mg of morpheme and it does not want to turn loose of her.

I'm going to PM you about that - I've just been given a, herbal painkilling med for nerve pain and RLS (and the evil things that happen when they come together!), made from 3 different types on non-opium poppies, so it's a pseudo opiate. Super effective - blissful sleep.

I must say - I wish i had you near to make my oil! That mix sounds perfect. Eventually when I get the appropriate plant material, I think that's exactly the kind of mix I'm after. I am limited to what i can grow myself - and at the moment I have an enormous CBD Critical Cure almost halfway through flower - so 2:1 is what I've got for while.

 

[Amy Gardner]

Decoding The Holy Grail: Terpene & Cannabinoid Retention - Decarb to Extraction

Amy G,
Thanks for explaining where you are coming from. I don't know any more than the description of neuro-immune exhaustion that I just looked up.

It is one of the hallmark symptoms of Myalgic Encephalomyelitis - I'm too exhausted to explain that right now LOL!

It is about 70% CBDA (The non decarbed part) and 18% CBD (The decarbed part.) There is about 4% THCA, 3%THC, 3% CBGA and 1% CBC. Then I diluted it 100 to 1 with coco.

Now the short version of that, adding non decarbed material into your oil making may be worth trying for you.

Thanks - how do I do that?

Meaning how do I add non decarbed material? Just by adding it straight to the infusion without the oven de carb first?

 

[Skullman420]

Thank you all. What a pleasure to see so many of my favorite 420'ers in the same thread.

Guess what - I am still a oil-infusion-virgin. Will get the hang of it asap though. Been waiting long enough. Gonna have a lot of trimmings the coming months and we need to make good use of everything

 

[Kicknitup1]

Amy Gardner

Whoa. Back up the horses. lol. Let me qualify the statement about making quality oil at home. I was referring to the fact that we have proven by lab tests to have the basic information about extraction & decarb correct. We should all be past grappling with questions like "should I decarb & how long"? (yeah, still a debate for perfection. But as we are seeing, it depends upon what you want to end up with. But we can get you above 97% consistently.) and "what kind of carrier oil should I use? Accounting for the lack of aggressive solvents in our field, thc loss & weight loss from decarb, and how to estimate dosage by taking ALL those things into account. Well. that's the short version. Although we are still occasionally filling in the blanks on the basics, we now know enough to start experimenting with what you are after....

What you are talking about is making a custom blend of terps, cannabinoids, and acids to treat a specific affliction so to speak. Well welcome to the cutting edge of the cannabis industry. NO. we can't do that yet. We are just now taking a hard look at the terpenes and cbda and the added problems from decarbing. However, we are chipping away at it. We know that you need to decarb longer for cbd. In your case, that is playing right into your hand. You don't care about the thc as much, which will deteriorate a bit going after the cbd. We know we are losing terps so we are looking at adding them back in with storebought. You already have the right idea by experimenting with mixing strains and acid forms.

You haven't missed anything. You are sitting on the goal line waiting on us. See that cloud of dust in the distance? We are headed your way.

 

[Bucudinkydow]

Very well said, kickn. Thank you!

 

[Skullman420]

We should all be past grappling with questions like "should I decarb & how long"

That is great for you all. But I am not quite there yet. I am legitimally wondering if there is any advantage of decarbing pre crock-potting or if the crock-potting will decarb it enough. Good for you that you are past those questions, but I never actually made any infused oil because I do not own a crock-pot yet. I will soon though and I was hoping that some time before that someone would be helpful and answer that question. Even if they are past it and all

 

[Amy Gardner]

Amy Gardner

Whoa. Back up the horses. lol.

Um, no I don't think I will. But maybe I'll ask you to, because...

What you are talking about is making a custom blend of terps, cannabinoids, and acids to treat a specific affliction so to speak. Well welcome to the cutting edge of the cannabis industry.

Actually no, that's not what I'm asking for help with at all. I haven't actually said anything that specific (apart from admiring Canyon's oil profile).

We should all be past grappling with questions like "should I decarb & how long"?

Again, this is precisely the statement (reworded) that prompted my response and subsequent question. This is where I was entering the discussion to say, "actually, help. I'm not past that... , please summarise your findings ..."

We know that you need to decarb longer for cbd.

Now we're getting somewhere... that's a partial answer to part of my question. .

You haven't missed anything. You are sitting on the goal line waiting on us. See that cloud of dust in the distance? We are headed your way.

Sorry, but that doesn't really seem accurate from where I am sitting. I definitely missed some things in the period after kick off!!

The original question - and admittedly it was embedded in some discussion/explanation of of my context and the information I had to date - was precisely about decarb times & temps for effective conversation (or not), based on what you have discovered here so far. I'm sure I put that clearly the first time! (But maybe I muddied things by saying too much about my pathway the confusion, it wouldn't be the first time).

I fear that we may be talking a little 'at crossed purposes ', as the saying goes. It's very exhausting!

If I could easily search back through the thread to discover what you folks have discovered about basic decarb I wouldn't need to be here asking the question. In the meantime- perhaps I'll just wander off with the GW Pharma recommendation for CBD decarb I cited earlier and leave it at that.

 

[Oldbear]

That is great for you all. But I am not quite there yet. I am legitimally wondering if there is any advantage of decarbing pre crock-potting or if the crock-potting will decarb it enough. Good for you that you are past those questions, but I never actually made any infused oil because I do not own a crock-pot yet. I will soon though and I was hoping that some time before that someone would be helpful and answer that question. Even if they are past it and all

Hi Deville Ive enjoyed many of your posts in other forums.

Many suggest decarbing the plant material in the oven by setting it on a baking sheet. The downside imo is that the odour is very strong which suggests a burn off of terpenes and trichomes. Some use oven roasting bags to minimize that.

What I do is to cover the plant material with olive oil (could be grapeseed, coconut or other) and do the decarb and extraction in one step. There is almost no smell.

For times and temps, after many experiments, Ive settled on 110 minutes at 220F. I put the material in the oven in a small mason jar, then preheat the oven.

Once heated up the 110 minutes start, and then I'll turn off the over and let it cool down in there.

While its still warm I add the liquid sunflower lecithin, give it a good shake and sit it in the fridge.

I do this with strains that have different ratios of thc:cbd, but all have cbd. I do them all the same now since Ive never noticed a difference adjusting the times and temps.

Oil extractions are like growing in many ways. There are many effective ways to do it, and people have their preferences.

Final point is I do small volume experiments. A couple grams, cover it with oil, stir it up.

I have no need for gadgets like butter machines, double boilers, crock pots or the like. You could oven toast it first, but I don't recommend that.

 

[Kicknitup1]

That is great for you all. But I am not quite there yet. I am legitimally wondering if there is any advantage of decarbing pre crock-potting or if the crock-potting will decarb it enough. Good for you that you are past those questions, but I never actually made any infused oil because I do not own a crock-pot yet. I will soon though and I was hoping that some time before that someone would be helpful and answer that question. Even if they are past it and all

Crock pot will not be enough to decarb. Decarb first. No crock? how about a saucepan half full with some cooking oil & set up a double boiler? Oil will hold the temp steadier than water. Run it at 175-180f. Stir as much as you can. Runtime 5 hrs. Crocks run around 200-220. In 5 hrs I don't think it will hurt it but it ain't helping either.

BEFORE Crock: Down & dirty decarb (lets call it one size fits most- lol) Put a jar & lid in oven while preheating to 240f ( I don't care what the dial says, check it). Break up buds into nug size. Put in jar & loosely close. bake for 1:15. Turn off oven with jar in it & cool down for 15 min.

Freeze in same jar over night. Then crumble up buds & return to SAME jar (lets keep those trichs confined to the extraction container all the way thru). If you have a way to crush it up in the jar, all the better.

Then combine with oil & the heat source of your choice. Extract. Strain. Add Lecithin while still hot, 2-5% by weight & more if you wish. Blend to the best of your ability. Use. No frills but that will get you respectable oil. Coconut or Olive.

Estimating strength:
Legal or tested bud? Thc/thca content is known. Street weed, guess. Assuming you have decent stuff, estimate street weed @12% thc.

Example:
Using 12% thc content buds. 10grams
That's 120 mg thc/gram of bud. So 10g x 120mg = 1200mg thc available.
Decarbing: You lose weight by 12%. SO, multiply 1200mg thc x .88 (what's left) =1200 x .88 = 1056mg thc now available.

Subtract thc loss from inefficiency of solvent. Assuming you are not Zen-like, subtract 20% RIGHT NOW. SO, 1056mg-211mg = 845mg. The rest is trapped in there somewhere and we are open to ideas to get it out.

Here we are: We are down to 845 mg usable thc going in to solution. If you want it to be 15mg/ml then divide 845 by 15 to get a total of oil & lecithin volume to use. So I do it like this- That's about 56 ml needed. We need some confusion so.... I keep everything in grams now rather than ml. Olive oil weighs .91g/ml. Since I'm using 2-3% lecithin, I take 97-98% of the 56 for olive oil. That would be 3% of 56 ml. STOP I feel you slipping away with the math. Don't panic. It's not as bad as it sounds if you do one step at a time.

So lets do it all by weight. We want apx 56ml of liquid. Since oil weighs .91g/ml...oh just do it & take my word for it. 56 x .91 = 51 GRAMS of olive oil (EVOO). Add 2 GRAM lecithin. Now we have 53 grams total weight. In the weight we have 845mg thc. That means a 1 gram dose is apx 15.9 mg thc.

If we go back and start with weight, it's easier. Lets say we still want 15mg doses. 845/15=56. So, just use say, 54g of EVOO & 2 g of Lecithin. (Lecithin is not a big deal on quantity. Just get some in there.

This is meant to be a rough guide. The devil is always in the details. Things to keep in mind- we already have significant thc loss upfront so don't or minimize - changing containers, changing utensils, spills (I work on heavy duty foil taped down so I can scrape up droppings after they cool).
b

 

[Kicknitup1]

Ok Amy Gardner, I guess you lost me. Old bear just posted some decarb info & I did also. Both will work. For high cbd and less concern for thc, I would add 20-30 min.

 

[Oldbear]

@ Amy

There are a couple of ways for you to proceed I think

First would be to cook a batch with new oil and new product, strain it, then add it too what you have. Having two oils with different characteristics, you can mix and match all you want. The 'spreadsheet' allows you to calculate the contents of each oil plus different combinations.

Second way would be to add more plant material (and possibly more oil) to the oil you have, and bake it some more.

If you want minimal decarb on a batch, keep it down around 180F for an hour, which seems to be enough to melt the cannabinoids into the oil.

 

[InTheShed]

Excellent Kickn, thanks! I've got a question about that inefficiency calculation. Is that just meant to include the trichomes we can't get into our solution or does it also include the oil that remains in the bud after squeezing as much out as possible?

I ran 66 grams with 26 ounces of oil but could only manage to recover 19 ounces, which leaves 7 ounces still in the material. How do I factor that into my strength calculation?

 

[Oldbear]

Excellent Kickn, thanks! I've got a question about that inefficiency calculation. Is that just meant to include the trichomes we can't get into our solution or does it also include the oil that remains in the bud after squeezing as much out as possible?

I ran 66 grams with 26 ounces of oil but could only manage to recover 19 ounces, which leaves 7 ounces still in the material. How do I factor that into my strength calculation?

Hi ITS The concentration of the oil will be based on %thc x weight of material and volume of oil.

Example is a 20% thc x 66 grams x 80% extraction efficiency 10,560 mg thc in the oil.

Your concentration is 10,560 mg / 26 gives you 406 mg per ounce of oil. The 19 oz strained off has the same concentration.

 

[InTheShed]

Hi ITS The concentration of the oil will be based on %thc x weight of material and volume of oil.
Example is a 20% thc x 66 grams x 80% extraction efficiency 10,560 mg thc in the oil.
Your concentration is 10,560 mg / 26 gives you 406 mg per ounce of oil. The 19 oz strained off has the same concentration.

Thanks OldBear! I've never done concentration by oil weight, only mg/ml and I use your spreadsheet for that now. I guess I need to find a chart that lists the weight/ml for each of my oils.

And with 27% of my oil left in the material I guess there are a lot of brownies to make .

 

[Kicknitup1]

Excellent Kickn, thanks! I've got a question about that inefficiency calculation. Is that just meant to include the trichomes we can't get into our solution or does it also include the oil that remains in the bud after squeezing as much out as possible?

I ran 66 grams with 26 ounces of oil but could only manage to recover 19 ounces, which leaves 7 ounces still in the material. How do I factor that into my strength calculation?

Glad you asked that one! The loss Im referring to is from the carrier oil not picking it all up. I think max efficiency with evoo/coc oil is 15% loss. Im still working on that part. We need to get that # down.

That trapped oil is a different loss of sorts. It does NOT affect the potency of what you retrieved. If there is 15mg/g in what you retrieved, then there is 15mg/g in the trapped oil also. The only way I have salvaged most all of it is to get what I can and then add 10x water by volume & chill & seperate. BUT this picks up ALL the chlorophyll & tastes terrible. So, better ideas are welcome. In your case, 27% trapped is a lot. Come up with better squeezing techniques. You will still lose about 10-12%.

 

[Kicknitup1]

Don't forget to reduce for decarb INtheShed

 

[InTheShed]

Don't forget to reduce for decarb INtheShed

That was 66 grams post decarb. Actual weight into the oil.

[edit: oh, and I calculate at 10% THC because I'm growing outside and I like to estimated conservatively]

 

[Oldbear]

Thanks OldBear! I've never done concentration by oil weight, only mg/ml and I use your spreadsheet for that now. I guess I need to find a chart that lists the weight/ml for each of my oils.

And with 27% of my oil left in the material I guess there are a lot of brownies to make .

There is a few ways to squeeze it out. I use bags made for straining home made flax (or other seeds) milk. Or a French coffee press.

fwiw if you spread the mash (bud bits plus oil) out on a flat surface, it will dry out. It absorbs the left over oil and becomes damp but loose and crumbly. Makes it easy too add bud bits into all sorts of foods - smoothies, soups, stews, on salads etc etc

Brownies are good too

 

[InTheShed]

There is a few ways to squeeze it out. I use bags made for straining home made flax (or other seeds) milk. Or a French coffee press.

fwiw if you spread the mash (bud bits plus oil) out on a flat surface, it will dry out. It absorbs the left over oil and becomes damp but loose and crumbly. Makes it easy too add bud bits into all sorts of foods - smoothies, soups, stews, on salads etc etc

Brownies are good too

I used a ricer. Guess my grip strength ain't what it used to be. Brownies will have to do .