Decoding The Holy Grail: Terpene & Cannabinoid Retention: Decarb to Extraction

[Bucudinkydow]

As a child I remember my grandmother was emphatic about getting a good daily dose of chlorophyll in her diet. She kept a prized window garden of wheat grass which she juiced every morning. Of course, when I visited it was imperative that I indulge.. I still hate the taste!

She was in excellent health well into her 80's and as limber as a school girl right up to her death.

Seems there's a lot of health benefits:

21 Surprising Chlorophyll Benefits | Organic Facts

 

[Kicknitup1]

Interesting. So this would change the color, but have no effect on the taste? Aside from taste, what's the concern about chlorophyll? It's the plant equivalent of hemoglobin and I've never been able to figure out why that's a bad thing to include in any oil.

If we're using capsules is the taste a real concern?

Nope. Frankly, I have learned that extractions are tolorable no matter what-- as long as I --DO NOT grind the bud or incorporate water--- into the process. Some tastes way better than others. It's really only in the high doses that it is so bad.

 

[LVMarc42]

One of the most frustrating parts of producing potent cannabis oils and products is understanding the decarboxylation process. How long is optimal for THC conversion? CBD conversion? How long is too long? What's being destroyed? What makes it through? Are there ways to manage the decarb for a more varied cannabinoid and terpene profile?

We now understand that the terpenes direct the action of the cannabinoids. This means it's the terpenes that define the effect. THC and CBD are a power couple of cannabinoids, but terpenes tell them how to apply that power. We can assume this happy partnership carries over to what we call "minor cannabinoids," the ones we simply haven't studied as closely.

Knowing this, it becomes advantageous to retain as much of the volitile terpene profile as possible, within reason, and we've dedicated a couple brainstorming threads to creating cannabis and cannabis products that have a more pronounced terpene profile.

Most of us are kitchen alchemist, happily turning our beloved plants into potent oils or butters for culinary and medicinal uses. Getting the decarb correct is of great importance when you're going to introduce cannabinoids through the gut. If your medical needs call for a high THC medicine you want to be reasonably certain you're getting maximum decarboxylation of THCa. The same can be said for CBDa.

A pair of our members, Canyon and Kicknitup1, will be joining forces for a few days next month and do their best to get at least some of the basic questions about decarbing answered. Here's a further breakdown of what they plan to do during this adventure, in Kicknitup's own words: (I did some formatting )



Canyon is generously providing the residence for the testing project to be carried out, and he's graciously included some of his magnificent produce in the package, assuring a final product of high quality. I'll let him explain his part in this enterprise in his own words.



We have lab results of the beginning plant material. Canyon sent this sample to the lab with a friend who confused the name of the specimen. That explains Canyon's notation that the specimen had been tested as Extreme OG.

Our hope, as articulated by both participants, is to generate any input that you think might help them avoid wasting their time with tests you already know aren't worth it, or questions you'd like to see answered. This is but the beginning of the exploration, and the powerful way we brainstorm on this site offers great potential to get decarb nailed down so that we can proceed with our potent infused oils, edibles, and butters, secure in the knowledge that we're coming close to the mark.

So, how can we help you, and how can you help our intrepid lab rats? Feel free to jump into the conversation. There are no guidelines other than respectful participation, one of the hallmarks of our wonderful site.

And again, any information you might have on Nightmare Cookies will be greatly appreciated.

We can't start a thread without some pretty pictures, can we? A couple shots of the sacrificial lamb, Canyon's recently harvested Nightmare Cookies.

Beautiful bud.......it’s screaming ...ahhhhh guinea pig I ammmmm

 

[Kicknitup1]

May be time to rethink Chlorophyll:

"The basic structure of chlorophyll is a porphyrin ring similar to that of heme in hemoglobin, although the central atom in chlorophyll is magnesium instead of iron. The long hydrocarbon (phytol) tail attached to the porphyrin ring makes chlorophyll fat-soluble and insoluble in water.

Hmmm, So if chlorophyll is not the nastiness I'm picking up in the use of water in extraction, maybe it's something else.

I realize we are concentrating it in our methods so it may be "too much of a good thing" sometimes. I still think not grinding up the buds cuts it down to reasonable. And, so far, I 'm sticking with the theory that there is no CBD or THC inside the plant. Dry ice, then crumble DIRECTLY into the container you will be using to extract. When frozen, the buds crumble with little effort. And, if you can find a tool around the house that excells in shredding it up without even touching it, all the better.

Also, there are a bunch of possible benefits to the chlorophyll. But I wouldn't be surprised if a little goes a long way. Also, I'm not sure if I care if it's in there or not medicinally because it is plentiful in veggies anyway. Spinach has the most.

Bottom line, sigh, more mysteries.

 

[Kicknitup1]

When you incorporate water, you are definately inviting in all the things we KNOW are soluble in water. Bug sprays, you name it. I doubt any of those things tastes yummy. lol

 

[Bucudinkydow]

May be time to rethink Chlorophyll:

"The basic structure of chlorophyll is a porphyrin ring similar to that of heme in hemoglobin, although the central atom in chlorophyll is magnesium instead of iron. The long hydrocarbon (phytol) tail attached to the porphyrin ring makes chlorophyll fat-soluble and insoluble in water.

Hmmm, So if chlorophyll is not the nastiness I'm picking up in the use of water in extraction, maybe it's something else.

I realize we are concentrating it in our methods so it may be "too much of a good thing" sometimes. I still think not grinding up the buds cuts it down to reasonable. And, so far, I 'm sticking with the theory that there is no CBD or THC inside the plant. Dry ice, then crumble DIRECTLY into the container you will be using to extract. When frozen, the buds crumble with little effort. And, if you can find a tool around the house that excells in shredding it up without even touching it, all the better.

Also, there are a bunch of possible benefits to the chlorophyll. But I wouldn't be surprised if a little goes a long way. Also, I'm not sure if I care if it's in there or not medicinally because it is plentiful in veggies anyway. Spinach has the most.

Bottom line, sigh, more mysteries.

WOW! Back to the drawing board! And I've accepted that chlorophyll is totally water soluble all this time.

Just read an overly technical article at Skunk Pharm. It appears there are components in chlorophyll that are both water soluble and, to my surprise, highly soluble in alcohol.

According to "Joe" at Skunk Pharm, it looks like the freezing step prior to extraction is the answer to avoiding chlorophyll leaching in the ethanol.

"Freezing the material prior to an extraction, may be holding both the chlorophyll and the WSCP locked up in ice, so that neither the water present or the solvent can reach the chlorophyll."

WSCP is water soluble chlorophyll-binding protein.

Probably the minute amount of chlorophyll we may ingest in most any extraction is probably irrelevant as medically beneficial but it's good to know the only negative is the undesirable taste that it most likely offers.

And you're right in the fact that we probably get an adequate amount of chlorophyll in our daily diet IF we ingest the green leafy veggies raw or slightly cooked. High temps destroy most of the chlorophyll.

 

[SweetSue]

When you incorporate water, you are definately inviting in all the things we KNOW are soluble in water. Bug sprays, you name it. I doubt any of those things tastes yummy. lol

One of the reasons we advocate growing your own or knowing who grows for you. Someday it'll be common practice to have a cannabis garden in the house. People won't question it, they'll assume.

My thinking is that if a little chlorophyll was all we needed it wouldn't be necessary to eat so many green veggies. Lol.

So it's I soluable in water, eh? Then why do we winterize and freeze the wash when making CCO? I was operating under the impression that removing chlorophyll was one of the reasons for winterization

 

[SweetSue]

I see Buc already had the same thoughts. Lol!

 

[Oldbear]

Something I’ve done is put ground dried cannabis in gel caps. Bud and sugar leaves.

I just swallow them. So good for all the raw cannabis benefits. Works with decarbed as well

 

[Bucudinkydow]

Something I’ve done is put ground dried cannabis in gel caps. Bud and sugar leaves.

I just swallow them. So good for all the raw cannabis benefits. Works with decarbed as well

Does it ever cause any digestive discomfort?

 

[Oldbear]

Not for me but I take after eating and with a big glass of water

 

[SweetSue]

Does it ever cause any digestive discomfort?

I've never had any digestive problems. I do this with the oil mash leftovers after straining too. It's messier to do, but it uses every bit of that mash and I get all of my cannabinoids.

I've been considering this for myself Oldbear. I feel a need to get acid cannabinoids in on a regular basis and this feels like the easiest way to get it done.

 

[Oldbear]

I've never had any digestive problems. I do this with the oil mash leftovers after straining too. It's messier to do, but it uses every bit of that mash and I get all of my cannabinoids.

I've been considering this for myself Oldbear. I feel a need to get acid cannabinoids in on a regular basis and this feels like the easiest way to get it done.

jJust like the ancients.

 

[Rider509]

I need help from the brain trust here. For those that don't know, I no longer use cannabis. I'm growing for my brother, a retired Navy Master Chief petty officer who has lupus and polycythemia vera. He uses cannabis sublingually and wants to mix the concentrate with MCT to do so. I have several pounds from my current grow to convert. I have 5gal of Extractohol 200 proof and a vacuum system with dry ice/liquid nitrogen alcohol recovery. He has read up on Rick Simpson oil but is as much of a newbie at this as I am. It's cool that Rick Simpson cured his basal cell cancer with cannabinoids but let's be honest... basal cell is dime a dozen. I don't even go to my derm doc for basal cell any more. I freeze it off with liquid nitrogen and be done with it. I've had basal, squamous cell, and melanomas. I'm on a first name basis with my MOHS surgeon. I'm not trusting my life to cannabis when a scalpel is available.
Fortunately, my brother's needs are different. He has deep bone pain and loss of appetite. At night he has to slather topical anesthetics over his feet to deaden the pain. He says it's like growing pains time ten and his whole body aches.
My questions:
QWET or full extract?
Decarb the flowers or the extract?
Are there pro and cons to each option? You guys have studied this way more than I have and I respect your knowledge and opinions. Any advice you can throw my way will be very much appreciated.

edit: I intend to reduce the concentrate down to the viscosity of heavy oil.

 

[Bucudinkydow]

Hello rider. I'm a big fan of a short ethanol extraction using a sealed container decarb of the plant material and then subjecting it to freezing temps for a day prior to opening the jar. I'm trying to convince myself that I'm preserving terpenes but I can offer no substantiating evidence.

I'm unsure of the term "full extraction" unless you're referencing a lengthy soak of the material in ethanol? Please expand a bit and I'll be glad to share my experiences in ethanol extraction procedures, failures and successes, if you're interested.

 

[Rider509]

Hello rider. I'm a big fan of a short ethanol extraction using a sealed container decarb of the plant material and then subjecting it to freezing temps for a day prior to opening the jar. I'm trying to convince myself that I'm preserving terpenes but I can offer no substantiating evidence.

I'm unsure of the term "full extraction" unless you're referencing a lengthy soak of the material in ethanol? Please expand a bit and I'll be glad to share my experiences in ethanol extraction procedures, failures and successes, if you're interested.

If you're soaking your decarbed flowers in alcohol for a day there's nothing short about that extraction. A QWET, even using solvent and flower chilled to -30F is rarely more than 15 minutes and more typically 5-10 minutes. And yes, a full extraction cannabis oil (FECO) is a prolonged soak. I've got the equipment and knowledge to do the extraction. What I don't have is hands on experience from a medical marijuana user's perspective on which extract method produces the best product for sublingual tinctures for pain relief.

 

[Rider509]

Also I'm curious if anyone has experimented with finding the saturation point of soluble cannabinoids in EtOH. I'm wondering if I can't soak a gallon of buds, then drain that into a fresh gallon of buds with make-up alcohol, and repeat. At what point does the alcohol become so saturated that it will hold no more cannabinoids?

 

[Oldbear]

I have a faded memory of someone posting 20% but I'm not sure. I think Kickin knows this.

 

[Bucudinkydow]

If you're soaking your decarbed flowers in alcohol for a day there's nothing short about that extraction. A QWET, even using solvent and flower chilled to -30F is rarely more than 15 minutes and more typically 5-10 minutes. And yes, a full extraction cannabis oil (FECO) is a prolonged soak. I've got the equipment and knowledge to do the extraction. What I don't have is hands on experience from a medical marijuana user's perspective on which extract method produces the best product for sublingual tinctures for pain relief.

I suppose I could have been a bit more concise in my description but the point I was making was that I go from decarb to the freezer without opening the sealed container, thus trapping any evaporated gases that had formed. Ethanol introduced after this step.

 

[Rider509]

I suppose I could have been a bit more concise in my description but the point I was making was that I go from decarb to the freezer without opening the sealed container, thus trapping any evaporated gases that had formed. Ethanol introduced after this step.

Ahh, that's much more clear. Thank you @Bucudinkydow! You're trapping the volatile terpenes and the chill after condenses them back onto the walls of the jar. I briefly thought of that but was worried that the pressure inside the jars would cause them to break. I have two spare 10" autoclaves and considered decarbing in sealed jars in them to equalize the pressure. But you're doing it without having jars explode. That's good to know. I'm in the experimental phase now so I may ruin a few flowers along the way, but it's all in the name of science. LOL