Gee64
Well-Known Member
Did you dust the clone roots with myco when you potted them?
Fudo Myoo's Organic, LED Homegrown Journal
- Thread starter Fudo Myoo
- Start date
- Thread starter
- #962
Fudo Myoo
Well-Known Member
Super soil slurry test with distilled water.
Canopy Humidity
Canopy Humidity
- Thread starter
- #963
Fudo Myoo
Well-Known Member
Azos
- Thread starter
- #964
Fudo Myoo
Well-Known Member
Probably starving
- Thread starter
- #965
Fudo Myoo
Well-Known Member
Now that I have a better ph I feel more comfortable transplanting. There’s plenty of goodies in there for them. Added lime has been in there almost 2 weeks.
- Thread starter
- #966
So these plants came from a synthetic grow, and were put into Revs mix? Do You know how old they were when you got them?
Gee64
Well-Known Member
No, synthetic into Fox Farm soil
- Thread starter
- #969
Fudo Myoo
Well-Known Member
to ffof…not sure how old. Pics of when I got them is all
- Thread starter
- #970
Fudo Myoo
Well-Known Member
Correct. Tomorrow into Revs.
Ok, here we go. If they were started off synthetic there’s a high probability they have no root hairs, and have no systems established for communication with the microbes. Going from a synthetic sterile environment, into a pot filled with tons of microbes is overwhelming, think War of the Worlds.
Plants in an all natural environment initiate communication and development with microbes the very second the seed splits. This is why you shouldn’t germinate anywhere other than in the medium. If you go the paper towel route you should also plant the paper towel used so you don’t lose the microbes that came with the seed.
These microbes build root hairs, cycle nutrients, and provide double digit percentages of nutrients to the plants. It’s a system that is established on Day 1, and builds up as the grow goes.
Starting in synthetic means the plant doesn’t establish these relationships. It has no need for them. It’s getting everything it needs from the grower so there is no incentive to setup these natural systems since they cost the plant energy to run. So basically you have plants that have been on the dole since day 1. They’ve gotten lazy and don’t know how to feed themselves. There is a very good chance they dont even have the capability to feed themselves just yet. They’re still waiting for you to come through with a meal. Don’t do it. Force them to figure it out. If they can’t figure it out they have no business being flowered because you’ll spend the entire bloom period slamming them with liquid nutrients, you’ll have no other choice.
I’ve read in many, many places that the moment a plant is given liquid nutrients, that’s it, you are now confined to giving liquid nutrients the rest of the grow. While this makes sense to me, it doesn’t completely jive with what I know about plants. @Gee64 may have more insight on that but from what I know of plants, they should be able to bounce back and reestablish naturally.
Rev mentions it in the 2nd edition actually. I’ll look for the passage but basically he says when plants are given liquid nutrients they almost instantly stop all other methods of intake and rely solely on those liquids provided.
Plants in an all natural environment initiate communication and development with microbes the very second the seed splits. This is why you shouldn’t germinate anywhere other than in the medium. If you go the paper towel route you should also plant the paper towel used so you don’t lose the microbes that came with the seed.
These microbes build root hairs, cycle nutrients, and provide double digit percentages of nutrients to the plants. It’s a system that is established on Day 1, and builds up as the grow goes.
Starting in synthetic means the plant doesn’t establish these relationships. It has no need for them. It’s getting everything it needs from the grower so there is no incentive to setup these natural systems since they cost the plant energy to run. So basically you have plants that have been on the dole since day 1. They’ve gotten lazy and don’t know how to feed themselves. There is a very good chance they dont even have the capability to feed themselves just yet. They’re still waiting for you to come through with a meal. Don’t do it. Force them to figure it out. If they can’t figure it out they have no business being flowered because you’ll spend the entire bloom period slamming them with liquid nutrients, you’ll have no other choice.
I’ve read in many, many places that the moment a plant is given liquid nutrients, that’s it, you are now confined to giving liquid nutrients the rest of the grow. While this makes sense to me, it doesn’t completely jive with what I know about plants. @Gee64 may have more insight on that but from what I know of plants, they should be able to bounce back and reestablish naturally.
Rev mentions it in the 2nd edition actually. I’ll look for the passage but basically he says when plants are given liquid nutrients they almost instantly stop all other methods of intake and rely solely on those liquids provided.
Gee64
Well-Known Member
I would get fresh myco, mix a myco drench as per the instructions, and get it in quick.
Synthetic clones are tough to adapt to LOS so that would explain why your clones work better. It looks like myco never took on these ones. It's creeping into the others so I would also suspect a lack of quality soil carbon.
Start with this... tug the stalk gently... does the solo cup rootball pop right out cleanly?
If so, cut your Rev's soil to 60:40 60% coco, 40% Rev's, and perlite to where you like it, redust the rootball that popped out, and give them 10 days or so. After about 7 days, water them with some fish hydrolysate mixed as per the instructions.
Myco loves fish. Myco also needs lots of soil carbon.
It's actually a nitrogen thing. At 10:1 C:N, myco can barely survive. At 15:1 it can barely reproduce. At 20:1 it's starting to get robust. At 25+ to 1 it's ripping.
I'm not familiar with Fox Farm soil, so it may have lots of coco in it already, but it also may not.
I haven't found a commercial mix yet that is LOS clone friendly. They all cheap out on the coco and go with forest fines and spagnum instead. Great for older established plants, but tough on clones.
My soil of choice for seed sprouting, and for 1st pottings, is the used soil from a previously successful grow that hasn't been recycled. It's balanced and innoculated, and weaker than fresh soil. It's also plumb full of exudates (carbon) from the rootball that died and decomposed in it.
If the rootball pops out and you have an old organic rootball laying around from a successful grow try that soil. Properly hydrate it 1st before using it. Mix in at least 25% by volume, fresh coco and if needed add a bit more perlite.
Once the clone is in it, GENTLY water to full saturation with RO, let them drip out, and don't water again until the pot is quite light, but not to the point where the leaves start to droop.
Then GENTLY water again to full runoff with some fish hydrolysate (not emulsion) and let them dry down again.
If myco links up they will be looking good at the 2 week mark.
If they didn't link to the FF soil, uppotting everything probably won't fix the problem.
To me, this looks like myco didn't link. They have no control over food or water. They are patiently waiting for a synthetic feed.
Also, you need an analog refractometer. They are cheap. They tell you a brix reading, but they also tell you how your calcium is doing. Digital ones won't read calcium.
Also, those probes are ok for soil moisture, but I haven't found one yet that is even close on soil PH. A slurry test is only good if you test it with a good PH pen that is calibrated.
Don't worry about soil PH though, if you get the carbon and myco correct, PH will adjust itself into the ballpark, and once the plant starts to produce exudates, it will use it's own carbon to bribe myco into controlling PH for you.
You want your soil temp at least 68F, but mid 70's is better. Warmer soil breeds microbes/fungii better. Cold soil slows everything down, including transpiration.
Sativas are far more vulnerable in cold soil. They want jungle steamy warmth.
So theres some food for thought. See if that might jive with what is going on, and decide from there.
Start with seeing if those rootballs pop right out. If the do, the plant doesn't like that soil. If they don't then start with a myco drench.
The way they are holding water makes me suspect myco and carbon. That leads to full starvation as there is no control over PH occurring in the pot.
So here's a good tip moving forwards. If the commercial clone guys aren't growing the mothers organically, back away from the till and look elsewhere.
Most growers are still synthetic so lots of cloners are too. Synthetic clones work excellent in synthetic grows, but in living soil you need to convert them.
It's similar to a SIPs stall. The roots need to convert to feeder roots.
Organic clones will work well in both synthetics or organics.
Seed breeders generally only deal with organic seed mothers, so seeds are way easier in LOS or synthetics.
Also, as a side note, a SIPs mother will make clones that adapt to SIPs quicker, as opposed to a top watered mother's clones. And vica-versa. At least that's my experience.
So the right clone for the right environment makes a big difference. Especially if you are managing timelines.
Synthetic clones are tough to adapt to LOS so that would explain why your clones work better. It looks like myco never took on these ones. It's creeping into the others so I would also suspect a lack of quality soil carbon.
Start with this... tug the stalk gently... does the solo cup rootball pop right out cleanly?
If so, cut your Rev's soil to 60:40 60% coco, 40% Rev's, and perlite to where you like it, redust the rootball that popped out, and give them 10 days or so. After about 7 days, water them with some fish hydrolysate mixed as per the instructions.
Myco loves fish. Myco also needs lots of soil carbon.
It's actually a nitrogen thing. At 10:1 C:N, myco can barely survive. At 15:1 it can barely reproduce. At 20:1 it's starting to get robust. At 25+ to 1 it's ripping.
I'm not familiar with Fox Farm soil, so it may have lots of coco in it already, but it also may not.
I haven't found a commercial mix yet that is LOS clone friendly. They all cheap out on the coco and go with forest fines and spagnum instead. Great for older established plants, but tough on clones.
My soil of choice for seed sprouting, and for 1st pottings, is the used soil from a previously successful grow that hasn't been recycled. It's balanced and innoculated, and weaker than fresh soil. It's also plumb full of exudates (carbon) from the rootball that died and decomposed in it.
If the rootball pops out and you have an old organic rootball laying around from a successful grow try that soil. Properly hydrate it 1st before using it. Mix in at least 25% by volume, fresh coco and if needed add a bit more perlite.
Once the clone is in it, GENTLY water to full saturation with RO, let them drip out, and don't water again until the pot is quite light, but not to the point where the leaves start to droop.
Then GENTLY water again to full runoff with some fish hydrolysate (not emulsion) and let them dry down again.
If myco links up they will be looking good at the 2 week mark.
If they didn't link to the FF soil, uppotting everything probably won't fix the problem.
To me, this looks like myco didn't link. They have no control over food or water. They are patiently waiting for a synthetic feed.
Also, you need an analog refractometer. They are cheap. They tell you a brix reading, but they also tell you how your calcium is doing. Digital ones won't read calcium.
Also, those probes are ok for soil moisture, but I haven't found one yet that is even close on soil PH. A slurry test is only good if you test it with a good PH pen that is calibrated.
Don't worry about soil PH though, if you get the carbon and myco correct, PH will adjust itself into the ballpark, and once the plant starts to produce exudates, it will use it's own carbon to bribe myco into controlling PH for you.
You want your soil temp at least 68F, but mid 70's is better. Warmer soil breeds microbes/fungii better. Cold soil slows everything down, including transpiration.
Sativas are far more vulnerable in cold soil. They want jungle steamy warmth.
So theres some food for thought. See if that might jive with what is going on, and decide from there.
Start with seeing if those rootballs pop right out. If the do, the plant doesn't like that soil. If they don't then start with a myco drench.
The way they are holding water makes me suspect myco and carbon. That leads to full starvation as there is no control over PH occurring in the pot.
So here's a good tip moving forwards. If the commercial clone guys aren't growing the mothers organically, back away from the till and look elsewhere.
Most growers are still synthetic so lots of cloners are too. Synthetic clones work excellent in synthetic grows, but in living soil you need to convert them.
It's similar to a SIPs stall. The roots need to convert to feeder roots.
Organic clones will work well in both synthetics or organics.
Seed breeders generally only deal with organic seed mothers, so seeds are way easier in LOS or synthetics.
Also, as a side note, a SIPs mother will make clones that adapt to SIPs quicker, as opposed to a top watered mother's clones. And vica-versa. At least that's my experience.
So the right clone for the right environment makes a big difference. Especially if you are managing timelines.
Gee64
Well-Known Member
If you are uppotting to Rev's tomorrow, try popping the rootballs out as I stated above.
If they pop right out then Rev's soil is too strong. They will need to be vegged at least 2 more weeks in better soil for myco to establish before uppotting.
And what Keff said
If they pop right out then Rev's soil is too strong. They will need to be vegged at least 2 more weeks in better soil for myco to establish before uppotting.
And what Keff said
Gee64
Well-Known Member
Add this to your soil philosophy. Myco does everything it does and microbes do everything they do for 1 reason only.... carbon. They eat all the minerals and poop out the fertilizer, but they only eat the minerals because they are mived with the carbon. They are actually eating the carbon, but the minerals are mixed in so they eat it too. A plant, with myco's help will squirt carbon on the minerals it wants to consume.
Carbon either needs to be in the soil or supplied by exudates. Exudates is best, but it needs to be supplied by the soil before exudates can be created to take over.
Carbon also holds 4 times it's weight in water, so it becomes a soil reservoir.
Carbon either needs to be in the soil or supplied by exudates. Exudates is best, but it needs to be supplied by the soil before exudates can be created to take over.
Carbon also holds 4 times it's weight in water, so it becomes a soil reservoir.
And between microbes, and myco, they do all the heavy lifting for the plant, while making none of the decisions.
The plant can turn on, and off, the different strains it needs at different times, as fast as a few minutes. It will withhold carbon from some microbes and fungi, then deliver it to others that are performing the tasks it currently needs accomplished in the environment it’s in.
The plant is the boss. It controls everything. The more tools you can give it, the better everything becomes. It’s had millions of years to evolve these relationships and they’re exquisitely efficient at performing millions of tasks to create healthier, happier plants.
- Thread starter
- #976
Fudo Myoo
Well-Known Member
@Keffka @Gee64 , thanks for the info. I figured them being synthetic would be an issue. My mix has coir in it but maybe not enough for transition. I’ll check the root balls tomorrow.
Questions:
Would they have grown this much in 12 days if they weren’t receiving anything from the up can soil?
The other 3 are also synthetic and look much better, so far. Or should I expect them to look the worse soon?
Questions:
Would they have grown this much in 12 days if they weren’t receiving anything from the up can soil?
The other 3 are also synthetic and look much better, so far. Or should I expect them to look the worse soon?
- Thread starter
- #977
Fudo Myoo
Well-Known Member
I think we found our problem. Roots look fine, they’re just hungry.
Tropicana Cookie
Frosted Gelato
I put one T.C and the F.G in the Sips.
The other T.C is going in a Revs container for comparison. For those of you not familiar, this is it. Adjusted for 7 gallon.
The other 3 have to wait a day, I ran out of perlite and time. Out of the remaining 3, the GG4 is holding up the best. She was the youngest and the only one in soil and not a dense peat mix.
Have a great day.
Tropicana Cookie
Frosted Gelato
I put one T.C and the F.G in the Sips.
The other T.C is going in a Revs container for comparison. For those of you not familiar, this is it. Adjusted for 7 gallon.
The other 3 have to wait a day, I ran out of perlite and time. Out of the remaining 3, the GG4 is holding up the best. She was the youngest and the only one in soil and not a dense peat mix.
Have a great day.
Yes I would expect fairly regular growth. Beyond the nutrients the plant has stored up, a lot of the veg growth that takes place doesn’t really require that much in the way of nutrients. You will notice it have an effect on your end result though. Things like weaker stems, less dense buds, hits to resin and trichome production, etc. As long as calcium and water are both still moving, your plants can grow a lot.
You’ll usually see the worst of something 1-3 weeks later. If you’re not noticing them degrade yet, then they likely won’t. I would still be proactive though. Make sure you give them enough time to settle in before going to flower.
I think we found our problem. Roots look fine, they’re just hungry.
Tropicana Cookie
Frosted Gelato
I put one T.C and the F.G in the Sips.
The other T.C is going in a Revs container for comparison. For those of you not familiar, this is it. Adjusted for 7 gallon.
The other 3 have to wait a day, I ran out of perlite and time. Out of the remaining 3, the GG4 is holding up the best. She was the youngest and the only one in soil and not a dense peat mix.
Have a great day.
You can tell looking at those roots they haven’t had any myco or good bacteria. They’re dull and ropey looking with minimal branching. A nice myco connection with healthy bacteria will leave your roots shining white and looking lively with a lot of branching.
- Thread starter
- #980
Fudo Myoo
Well-Known Member
Upcanned the rest the same way and watered them in with Ro, cal-mag and Recharge. I’ll put in some fert spikes along the edges this weekend. Hope they take, wish me luck.
