Help please, i have some sort of deficiency!

[Homebrew420]

OK the set up first:

Strain - x3 90% indica punch pie
. X1 special Queen 50-50 ind/sat
# of Plants - 4
Grow Type - soil -
Grow Stage - veg
Setup - Ebb & Flow
Light - 600w phlizon LED
Nutrients - plant magic
Medium - gold Label Special mix
RH - 60% to 67%
Room Temperature - 67 to 78
Room Square Footage - 16
Pests - None Known

lights are ~22" away from the tops of the plants and DLI is in the range of a website I've been referencing although there is a bit of leaf curl.

Potted up 3 days ago after a bit of over watering in the smaller pots (needed potting up anyway and they have really perked up now, did a very small water on the new soil when potting up and also used some granules.

I think the pics are the main thing to describe my concerns so here goes.

This is the Room as a whole atm.

Starting with plant 1, special Queen 50-50 indica/sativa .
this is one of 2 lower leaves I removed today, and the pant closer up:

I was thinking magnesium with this one?

The next 3 Plants are punch pie, 90 % indica. I'll put all the photos together. Plant number 3 was the worst affected from my overwatering.
2 looks like a bit of nitrogen burn at the tips (my other Plants have yellow tips, but plant 2 has a touch of brown)

Looking at plant 3 while posting there are a a couple of droopy tips whilst others are OK, so would that indicate nitrogen toxicity?

Thanks for any replies, I really don't want to mess this up.. been such a long time since the last grow (12/13 years).

 

[OGpapa]

Are you testing your ph? And do you use calmag?

 

[OGpapa]

OK the set up first:

Strain - x3 90% indica punch pie
. X1 special Queen 50-50 ind/sat
# of Plants - 4
Grow Type - soil -
Grow Stage - veg
Setup - Ebb & Flow
Light - 600w phlizon LED
Nutrients - plant magic
Medium - gold Label Special mix
RH - 60% to 67%
Room Temperature - 67 to 78
Room Square Footage - 16
Pests - None Known

lights are ~22" away from the tops of the plants and DLI is in the range of a website I've been referencing although there is a bit of leaf curl.

Potted up 3 days ago after a bit of over watering in the smaller pots (needed potting up anyway and they have really perked up now, did a very small water on the new soil when potting up and also used some granules.

I think the pics are the main thing to describe my concerns so here goes.

This is the Room as a whole atm.

Starting with plant 1, special Queen 50-50 indica/sativa .
this is one of 2 lower leaves I removed today, and the pant closer up:

I was thinking magnesium with this one?

The next 3 Plants are punch pie, 90 % indica. I'll put all the photos together. Plant number 3 was the worst affected from my overwatering.
2 looks like a bit of nitrogen burn at the tips (my other Plants have yellow tips, but plant 2 has a touch of brown)

Looking at plant 3 while posting there are a a couple of droopy tips whilst others are OK, so would that indicate nitrogen toxicity?

Thanks for any replies, I really don't want to mess this up.. been such a long time since the last grow (12/13 years).

I think your leaf curl is showing signs of being overwatered, droopy plump.

It looks to me as if you have a magnesium deficiency. Yellowing in between the veins is a sign I look for.

The yellowing at the tips of the leaves looks to me typical of light burn. I don't think your feeding heavy enough to show a nutrient burn. Regardless of lights manufacture specs if your plant is sick the light will affect it in a different way.

Phlizon 640w FD6000? I think I have mine set at 50% 26 inches from the tallest plant or so for my tent atm. It is lower than what I would normally run. But I also run a wide variety of plants in this particular tent

 

[Homebrew420]

Og, I've been testing the ph and being in a hard water area using a pH modifier to bring it to neutral. I have not been giving calmag, I do have a full bottle but I doubted using it due to the hard water (if I leave it a day after adjusting ph it's back to alkaline) but going by your post I was wrong to do this!
The light is the same as yours, the fd6000 I'm thinking now to match your height, think I'm at setting 4 off the top of my head, but if raising it, would I also increase the light output to get the correct(?) DLI range at the tops? But am I also thinking from what your saying, if I have the mag deficiency, that could be contributing to it?
Thanks for your replies.
Now I've got to think do I water them now with the cal mag, but don't want to water too frequently to fall into the overwatering trap again.. the soil looks dry on the top but up to the first knuckle on my finger and it not wet, but the damp/humidity like when it came fresh out the bag.

 

[bluter]

Og, I've been testing the ph and being in a hard water area using a pH modifier to bring it to neutral.

neutral is ph 7.0. that will easily kill your plants.

soil mixes should normally ph to 6.3 on feeding inputs. don't worry about testing runoff ph. info for your media does not tell us if it is ph balanced or not. you need to know that, reach out to mfgr to find out.

if its not balanced you'll have to observe ph practices closely.

do not ph if it is balanced.

I have not been giving calmag, I do have a full bottle but I doubted using it due to the hard water (if I leave it a day after adjusting ph it's back to alkaline) but going by your post I was wrong to do this!

good chance you could use a half dose or so.
what is the starting ppm of the water ? do you have a content report ?

The light is the same as yours, the fd6000 I'm thinking now to match your height, think I'm at setting 4 off the top of my head, but if raising it, would I also increase the light output to get the correct(?) DLI range at the tops? But am I also thinking from what your saying, if I have the mag deficiency, that could be contributing to it?

it looks like your whole nute levels could come up a bit. it's closer to under fed than over fed. i'm not seeing the slight tipping associated with proper nute levels.

Now I've got to think do I water them now with the cal mag, but don't want to water too frequently to fall into the overwatering trap again.. the soil looks dry on the top but up to the first knuckle on my finger and it not wet, but the damp/humidity like when it came fresh out the bag.

go through this for proper watering / feeding technique in that media.

The Proper Way To Water A Potted Plant

The Proper Way to Water a Potted Plant Also covered: the importance of pH and why we successively up-pot How to Water Over the last several years I have put a lot of study into this, and I feel that I can now define the proper way to water a potted plant. Keep in mind that this discussion...

www.420magazine.com

i see nothing associated with high heat or light levels occurring.

edit : how big are those pots ? you probably need an up pot soon.

 

[Wastei]

neutral is ph 7.0. that will easily kill your plants.

I don't agree on this. Input pH should be decided depending on growing method, medium and stage of growth. It's way better to pH at 7.0 compared to 6.3 running peat based soil mixes(most of them are). Especially in late flower.

I argue it's impossible to know what's the optimal input pH without knowing the pH of the medium? I've ended up having to pH compensate all the way up over pH 7.5 in peat in late flower as an example.

OP is struggling from overfeeding and watering practices. Pots should never sit in runoff water regardless of growing method, that will create an uneven substrate with different nutrient concentrations.

I see twisting and curling leaves with burnt leaf tips, all a sign of overfeeding and pH being out of range.

 

[Homebrew420]

Hi bluter,
Sorry, I meant by neutral that its in the middle of scale I have (it's drops that change colour in the water sample) I'm ph'ing down to ~ 6.5 going by the colour.
Before ph down it scores a solid 8.5.. I'm now half thinking of alternating with DI water that comes in at about 6 ph from the source (plus the cal mag /nutes) but need to look into it further/ get advice.

I haven't a clue on the PPM of the water unfortunately. I'm guessing a lot due to the scale build up we get in our area.

I've read that water technique and I will definitely do that as of the next water.

Where im at with that regards to watering/potting up Is:
They were over watered with nutes and looking a bit sorry, I pulled one to check the roots and it was very root bound, I didn't expect it quite so quick tbh, that's probably where lack of nutes came in just prior to that.
Roots/soil still quite wet, Potted up to 2 gallon pots, that was 3 or 4 days ago.. I forget exactly and added just a bit of water all round the edge of the pot in the new soil.. I didn't know how much good leaving it as is (wet/dryness wise) from the bag with just the root ball being wet.
Think i want a soil hydrometer to just give me that extra confidence to learn the patterns and what to expect as in that article you posted.

Thanks

 

[Roy Growin]

Appears to me that over watering is causing a problem with P, K & Ca uptake
The twisted tips suggest a micro such as Fe, Cu, Boron, Mo shortage, which is most likely pH too high
The shrivelled fan leaves are a result of all of these so first off lay off the watering
Then I would add a micro tea/seaweed plus reduce the amount of N slightly

A second opinion notwithstanding that of others, hope it helps or at least gets you thinking

 

[Homebrew420]

I don't agree on this. Input pH should be decided depending on growing method, medium and stage of growth. It's way better to pH at 7.0 compared to 6.3 running peat based soil mixes(most of them are). Especially in late flower.

I argue it's impossible to know what's the optimal input pH without knowing the pH of the medium? I've ended up having to pH compensate all the way up over pH 7.5 in peat in late flower as an example.

OP is struggling from overfeeding and watering practices. Pots should never sit in runoff water regardless of growing method, that will create an uneven substrate with different nutrient concentrations.

I see twisting and curling leaves with burnt leaf tips, all a sign of overfeeding and pH being out of range.

Thanks for your input wastei,

I just checked online for the details of the soil which comes back as below.

• pH 6.1
• EC 30 mS / m
• NPK: 12/14/24
• Dry mass (fresh weight) 35%
• Organic substance content 65%
• (v / v) substrate 61%
• Azot (N) 151g / m3
• Potassium oxide (K20) 172g / m3
• Phosphate acid (P205) 103g / m3

If I'm understanding right, you're saying there is an ideal ph for the plant, soil and water included and that you can balance out the end ph by adjusting the water to suit the soil?
So end result needs to be ~6.5 i guess?
Seeing as the pH I have in (unused) soil is 6.1, I too need to be aiming for around 7 with the water?

Thanks.

 

[Homebrew420]

Appears to me that over watering is causing a problem with P, K & Ca uptake
The twisted tips suggest a micro such as Fe, Cu, Boron, Mo shortage, which is most likely pH too high
The shrivelled fan leaves are a result of all of these so first off lay off the watering
Then I would add a micro tea/seaweed plus reduce the amount of N slightly

A second opinion notwithstanding that of others, hope it helps or at least gets you thinking

Thanks Roy, I've definitely been a serial over waterer!
I think I will leave them as is for now, I'll check in about 8 hours and again after another 8 (Although I do have a camera feed on them anyway), try and learn the wet to dry times. I'll then go with a bit of cal/mag with a ph of ~7 in the method previously posted.
It's a bit of a learning curve again.

 

[Roy Growin]

Thanks Roy, I've definitely been a serial over waterer!
I think I will leave them as is for now, I'll check in about 8 hours and again after another 8 (Although I do have a camera feed on them anyway), try and learn the wet to dry times. I'll then go with a bit of cal/mag with a ph of ~7 in the method previously posted.
It's a bit of a learning curve again.

I think pH6.3-6.8 would be better but let's see how you go

 

[bluter]

I don't agree on this. Input pH should be decided depending on growing method, medium and stage of growth. It's way better to pH at 7.0 compared to 6.3 running peat based soil mixes(most of them are). Especially in late flower.

doubt there's a commercial mix anywhere advising to ph at 7.0.

I argue it's impossible to know what's the optimal input pH without knowing the pH of the medium? I've ended up having to pH compensate all the way up over pH 7.5 in peat in late flower as an example.

honeslty never seen anyone doing this.

OP is struggling from overfeeding and watering practices. Pots should never sit in runoff water regardless of growing method, that will create an uneven substrate with different nutrient concentrations.

yeah the watering needs control. didn't catch if it was sitting in runoff, that would need correcting as well, and will negatively affect ph.

If I'm understanding right, you're saying there is an ideal ph for the plant, soil and water included and that you can balance out the end ph by adjusting the water to suit the soil?

that is how @Wastei kinda likes to do it. you'll be going a very complicated way if you chase runoff.

So end result needs to be ~6.5 i guess?

its your inputs that matter. ph to 6.3 if the media is not pre-balanced. your ph has been close so far with the testing strips.

Seeing as the pH I have in (unused) soil is 6.1, I too need to be aiming for around 7 with the water?

you need to work on the watering / feeding technique more so than anything. don't chase runoff ph. tears lie that way.

Think i want a soil hydrometer to just give me that extra confidence to learn the patterns and what to expect as in that article you posted.

they are notoriously awful. it's best to learn how to judge it on weight, like the link i posted.

edit : i would recommend getting a proper ph meter and an ec/ppm meter. they are good to have in the toolbox. the testing strips will get you close but often not good enough.

 

[Homebrew420]

cool, OK understood.. I'm more than happy to take advice from you more experienced guys and I'm grateful for all your inputs.
I'll ph the water to 6.5 as I have been but will ad the calmag and get my watering sorted out!
And yes, in the previous pots, there was a bit of run off, more so on one plant than the others, that it sat in.
One thing I forgot to mention is that I have about an inch of clay pebbles at the bottom of the pot.. can't remember why I did it, air to the roots? must have read that it was good to do Last time around.

 

[seaofgreen18]

Howdy maybe try an uppot and

I don't agree on this. Input pH should be decided depending on growing method, medium and stage of growth. It's way better to pH at 7.0 compared to 6.3 running peat based soil mixes(most of them are). Especially in late flower.

I argue it's impossible to know what's the optimal input pH without knowing the pH of the medium? I've ended up having to pH compensate all the way up over pH 7.5 in peat in late flower as an example.

OP is struggling from overfeeding and watering practices. Pots should never sit in runoff water regardless of growing method, that will create an uneven substrate with different nutrient concentrations.

I see twisting and curling leaves with burnt leaf tips, all a sign of overfeeding and pH being out of range.

Right on i use a soil ph meter and a irrometer for my needs. Have a good day 6.8 /6.9 soil ph soil tension consideration is a MUST Imo

 

[bluter]

One thing I forgot to mention is that I have about an inch of clay pebbles at the bottom of the pot.. can't remember why I did it, air to the roots? must have read that it was good to do Last time around.

should have media right to the bottom. the pebbles can raise the water table and create issues. also bigger pots would help. common indoor sizes are 3 and 5 gallon. pots with straight sides are better, cloth pots are a game changer for a lot of growers.

edit : also helps to elevate them above the drip trays. lots of guys use grates. there are pot risers you can buy at the dollar store.

 

[bluter]

Howdy maybe try an uppot and


Right on i use a soil ph meter and a irrometer for my needs. Have a good day 6.8 /6.9 soil ph soil tension consideration is a MUST Imo

nice set up. both you and Wastei are growing a level above.

 

[Homebrew420]

Cool, I was leaning towards the next pots being the cloth type ones.
Been holding off watering and monitoring the plants and despite the mag deficiency they seem to be doing fairly well, leaves up praying more.

I'm noticing the plant smell is fairly strong coming off of them now when i open the tent, (that grow guide states they are getting thirsty) and the soil is slightly coming away from the sides of the pot.. I'm seeing the signs but they have seemed to be recovering so well as is I'm reluctant to water just yet

 

[SmokingWings]

Plants are looking OK and the few problems should be easy to get figured out. And, it has been an interesting read with the others coming up several ideas to think about.

Grow Type - soil -
Setup - Ebb & Flow

Ebb and Flow is a hydroponic style and recycling the water would not work well with soil. Looking at the photos you have pretty much a soil style grow.

Nutrients - plant magic
Medium - gold Label Special mix

The Gold Label Special is a mix of peat moss and Perlite. It has enough fertilizers mixed in for the first 3 weeks of plant growth and after that the gardener has to take over. Other than that I did not see any mention that it contained any compost, worm-castings, topsoil, aged forest products or anything else--just the peat and Perlite.

With all that peat moss in the Gold Label Special it might explain the over-watering appearance to the soil and the plant leaves.

The Plant Magic is an organic fertilizer which has an NPK of 6-5-5. It does contain a small amount of Calcium and Magnesium. Might not hurt to give a boost of your Calcium-Magnesium product.

The Plant Magic looks like it was intended for those growing houseplants or getting seedlings started for the vegetable or flower garden. I figure you will have to find another fertilizer before the plants go into flower since the Plant Magic does not look like it will work well for Cannabis after reading the back of the bag. It will not handle the demands that the Cannabis plants have within a week or two after the start of flowering.

RH - 60% to 67%
Room Temperature - 67 to 78

Might want to see if you can boost the daytime temperatures a bit, maybe getting a bit closer to 82. The 67 looks OK for the nighttime temperatures but some growers do like it a bit warmer, maybe 70 degrees. The humidity is probably OK for vegetating but see if it can be dropped by the time flowering starts.

One thing I forgot to mention is that I have about an inch of clay pebbles at the bottom of the pot.. can't remember why I did it, air to the roots? must have read that it was good to do Last time around.

The clay pebbles are probably Hydroton pebbles or something similar. They are popular with hydroponic grows including Ebb and Flow. Some hydro methods do include putting a layer of clay pebbles at the bottom of the pot and then using a Rockwool cube surrounded on the side with more pebbles to hold the plant until the root ball fills the container. You might have been thinking of using them for an Ebb and Flow system before switching over to the Gold Label Special mix.

Strain - x3 90% indica punch pie
. X1 special Queen 50-50 ind/sat

Photoperiod or Auto-Flower? It helps knowing because if they are Autos they will be starting to flower soon enough and it will be best to figure out the flowering stage fertilizer before that happens.

 

[Buds Buddy]

I use to have the same issue you have in pic 1 with the spotted leaves. The way I stopped it from happening was by adding 2 tablespoons of Phosphate to my soil mix when up-potting to my final pot. I also used Dynamyko. Leaves stayed green through every grow after doing this. Of course during the final 2 weeks before harvest I got some yellowing leaves.... but that's totally normal.

Type of soil might make a difference though. I used FFOF religiously as I feel it's the best soil for growing. But I also grew in SIP Buckets; so there are some differing factors. Test it out on a single plant & see if it helps. It did work for me.

 

[Homebrew420]

Plants are looking OK and the few problems should be easy to get figured out. And, it has been an interesting read with the others coming up several ideas to think about.


Ebb and Flow is a hydroponic style and recycling the water would not work well with soil. Looking at the photos you have pretty much a soil style grow.

Thanks, they definitely seem to be hanging in there, not sure if growth is slow or if its just the indica traits, but they are gaining about an inch a day (at a rough guess)
That's my mistake writing Ebb and Flow.. I actually copied the example given in the sticky thread at the top and forgot to delete that bit. I don't even know that it is

The Gold Label Special is a mix of peat moss and Perlite. It has enough fertilizers mixed in for the first 3 weeks of plant growth and after that the gardener has to take over. Other than that I did not see any mention that it contained any compost, worm-castings, topsoil, aged forest products or anything else--just the peat and Perlite.

With all that peat moss in the Gold Label Special it might explain the over-watering appearance to the soil and the plant leaves.

I was using plant magic soil last time which was a similar thing with the nutes for ~3 weeks. Ive only given them that once whilst in the last days of being in the old pots.

The Plant Magic is an organic fertilizer which has an NPK of 6-5-5. It does contain a small amount of Calcium and Magnesium. Might not hurt to give a boost of your Calcium-Magnesium product.

The Plant Magic looks like it was intended for those growing houseplants or getting seedlings started for the vegetable or flower garden. I figure you will have to find another fertilizer before the plants go into flower since the Plant Magic does not look like it will work well for Cannabis after reading the back of the bag. It will not handle the demands that the Cannabis plants have within a week or two after the start of flowering.

I used this stuff in my last grows and it was suggested by the local grow shop. That was a long time ago, what nute brand /NPK levels do you use for veg/flower ?

Might want to see if you can boost the daytime temperatures a bit, maybe getting a bit closer to 82. The 67 looks OK for the nighttime temperatures but some growers do like it a bit warmer, maybe 70 degrees. The humidity is probably OK for vegetating but see if it can be dropped by the time flowering starts.

OK I'll try an get them a but higher, light level/DLI is due to be increased this week so that should help a bit.
I've been trying to track my vpd and it's been keeping between the 0.8 and 1.1, trying to aim for 1.1, then will increase that during flower but until I get the vpd controller I've mainly settled the humidifier at 60%, just certain times my vpd meter shows it's getting high so I crank up the humidifier but it only has 5% increments which doesn't help.

The clay pebbles are probably Hydroton pebbles or something similar. They are popular with hydroponic grows including Ebb and Flow. Some hydro methods do include putting a layer of clay pebbles at the bottom of the pot and then using a Rockwool cube surrounded on the side with more pebbles to hold the plant until the root ball fills the container. You might have been thinking of using them for an Ebb and Flow system before switching over to the Gold Label Special mix.

I honestly can't remember, I must have read it when I gre 1st time round so I just carried on.. I won't either next time.

Photoperiod or Auto-Flower? It helps knowing because if they are Autos they will be starting to flower soon enough and it will be best to figure out the flowering stage fertilizer before that happens.

They are photoperiod plants, I'm going to be putting a screen for scrog in soon to try to maximise things.. did it once before and the results were pretty good