Icemud's Grow 4.0 - High Brix Focus with Gas Lamp Routine - V-Scrog

[Hiker]

Re: Icemud's Grow 4.0..High Brix focus with Gas Lamp Routine..V-Scrog

It seems to me that a plant takes about a month to switch bac to veg, IMO.

I was gonna say 4-6 weeks, but that seemed too long. It's been a long time. I just remembered using the guideline that it was double regular clones and those took 10-14 days usually.

 

[Icemud]

Re: Icemud's Grow 4.0..High Brix focus with Gas Lamp Routine..V-Scrog

It's like Day Of The Triffids meets The Little Shop Of Horrors in there

Feed me Seymore..

Looking great man.

Happy, happy, happy!

Hey everyone...! Welcome to the party...the wait is on now only to see them swell with love as they start reaching the later bloom weeks... I can't wait to taste them as they already smell amazing I appreciate all of your comments

 

[420GodsTrichome]

Re: Icemud's Grow 4.0..High Brix focus with Gas Lamp Routine..V-Scrog

and


Always great things to see in your journal Ice, old pal!!

GT

 

[Icemud]

Re: Icemud's Grow 4.0..High Brix focus with Gas Lamp Routine..V-Scrog

Hey Ice!

Are you calling the yellowing at the top of the plant a Nitrogen def? If so, it's not that at all. In fact, it probably has nothing to do with nitrogen at all.

The yellow tops mean 2 things, usually at the same time:

1.)trouble with nitrogen fixing bacteria in roots and soil
2.)The Cation Exchange in the soil is flat.

Here's the fix:

1 ounce of Calcium Nitrate and a good dose of humic acid per gallon of water. Water with this one time and it should do the trick!

I used to get the exact same problem once in a while when I was doing the "medium brix" soil, 6-5-3, etc. I thought it was a sulfur deficiency at first and then learned a bit more about it.

That's weird Doc that you just replied because last night when I was typing this up I was hoping that you would stop on over and help out with the yellowing issue...its like you felt the high brix force calling out to you...lol I was leaning towards either N deficiency or low soil energy and the night before last I was reading about soil EC after you had mentioned it on your journal and so I looked into it trying to find any information on the proper EC for high brix growing but came up without much certain information on it. Any ideas that you have on HBX EC levels? The only site I came across was this:

420 MAGAZINE

It is difficult to say what your ideal EC levels will be because there are so many variables affecting the EC level that it almost depends on your individual conditions which if you analyze over time, will give you a meaningful set of data based on the performance of your crops and the changes you have made to your fertility program.

As a general guideline however, a good soil EC level will be somewhere above 200 µS/cm and 1200 µS/cm (1.2 MS/cm). Any soils below 200 means there is not enough nutrients available to the plant and could perhaps show a sterile soil with little microbial activity. An EC above 1200 µS/cm may indicate too much high salt fertilizer or perhaps a salinity problem from lack of drainage so keeping your EC within this range. Also watch to see how EC changes over the growing season, you may see it increase as microbes are releasing more nutrients from the soil or you may see a decrease as your crops use up all the available nutrients. Either way you can fertilize accordingly.

Water purity testing: Water purity testers are nearly always conductivity meters. Pure distilled water as very very low EC as it has no contaminants in it. Generally good distilled water is < 20 μS whereas good tap water is < 200 μS. If you find your drinking water above these levels then it is not a good water source.

Compost: You can also use your EC meter to monitor your compost pile and analyze how well your pile is doing. Compost in early stages may have an E.C. number of 10,000 μS as the pile becomes active and At the peak of breakdown it can even reach >100,000 μS. High quality finished compost should have an E.C. number of approximately 1,500 - 2,000 μS.

Foliar Fertilizers: You can use the EC meter to ensure your mixture is not to potent and to also ensure you get a consistant foliar spray potency each time. The potency of your spray should depend on what is in your spray, but as a rule of thumb, 15,000 – 35,000 is good for a normal spray mixture that you use only occasionally.

Leaf sap testing: Measure the leaf sap to find out how many ions are being processed into sugars. As the EC level goes down you can expect Brix levels (sugars being produced by photosynthesis) to go up before being transported around the plant. Expect leaf sap to be between 2,000 - 12,000 µS.

I was curious about this so I decided to run some 0ppm water through my soil to see what the ppm in the runoff is. I know that this is not the sifted, 50/50 ratio that would be used in a true ec test, however I still figured it may have some relavance to what I am seeing within the plants.

I have 5 gallon pots and used 2 gallons of water at least per pot taking a sample after the tray freshly filled up and the results were kind of as expected. The plants that were yellowing the most, the runoff was up around 1500-1600ppm which would translate to around an EC of 2.2-2.3 and the plants with the least yellowing were around 850-1250ppm which would be around a 1.2-1.7EC which would make sense with what is mentioned above.. now I know that the run off is not the best for an accurate test since you are not using equal portions of water, but the trend in yellowing vs raised soil EC has me leaning towards their might be a little too much "energy" going on for the roots to handle or that I have given them quite a bit of teas with some earthjuice that contains guano's and fish fertz. Being that N is used by the microbes as one of their energy sources with a high energy in the soil I was leaning to believe that this may be the reason for what somewhat resembles a N deficiency. I was thinking that the N was being used by the explosion of microlife draining the available N from the plants...but still was unsure... Now that is just my medicated mind basing an idea off of some of what I have read, but still unsure exactly because I didn't do a proper EC test to confirm my suspicion. But I believe it is either that the soil energy is too low, or too high. ??? I also just for "hits and grins" used my handy dandy soil probe to check the soil ph, just to make sure things were good and all 6 plants were sitting right between 6.7 and 6.4 so I know the soil ph is just fine... so that also helped me formulate the above thought as well...

I definitely agree that it has something to do with the soil energy and I do have some botanicare cal mag which I do believe is calcium nitrate, with a little amount of Iron added, the cal mag ratio is only 2:1 so its not Ideal for high brix, but I do have my general organics cal mag which is enzyme digested cal:mag with a 5:1 ratio and added humic acid and raw cane molasses...so i think that will be my next feeding... I do also have the calcium carbonate but don't think at this point since my soil is reinforced with it that it would be needed..On the last 2 feedings I gave them fulvic acid instead of humic acid since fulvic strips available nutrients, bonds and is available for plant uptake, where humic acid bonds with the ions but acts more of a reserve for the ions, I figured this may help to deliver more N to the plants then to the microbes... so far the yellowing has been holding steady, but not really improving much either... so I think I will try the above mix next feeding, sit back and see what happens.

Love that you chimed in with your ideas and I even am more happy that your confirmation of a soil energy problem I was starting to lean towards... much appreciation for you DocBud!!!! btw I am always reading your journals, even though I keep the comments to a minimum.. very much thank you doc for your advice..

 

[Icemud]

Re: Icemud's Grow 4.0..High Brix focus with Gas Lamp Routine..V-Scrog

One that slipped past the warning;

As one of the advantages of taking a clone is that it is already a ‘mature’ plant I would suggest your amazing toy-looking clones (meant with huge respect!) are already mature and ‘high-brixed’, so any triggers not yet activated in the time of the initial grow will have time to be activated, and there may be some triggers that are dependent on other triggers having already been activated and so on, so I agree with ‘over time if I take a clone of a clone of a clone in a high brix soil, will the quality improve over generations?’

Taking clones from different parts of a ‘mother’ appear to have initial differences in growth, then there is also taking ‘flowering clones’, said to significantly increase branching.

Are there Triggers activated by the transition into flower that can be beneficially activated ‘twice’ or more?

Fantastic grow, again,

I'm happy that you commented on this I also was thinking the same thing that if your taking a plant that has turned on many of these triggers, that it starts off with a higher potential already reached, and then it goes from there, I may have to try it with this next batch...keep a mother, and take a clone of the clone, at the same time, soil mixture and run them against each other, and do this a few generations to see if anything changes...assuming that I keep healthy plants each time and same environment...hmm definitely a very good chance I may do this in the near future I will have to plant a brix testing timesheet that I check the levels at the same times and dates every new generation to see any changes, as well as test the buds for their smokeability when harvested... I too think that this may open up good capibilities, however I did read that a few people said you can only clone a clone so many times before the quality may downgrade itself or the plant may develop oddly...but again their wasn't much info I could find on it... very awesome that you commented on the epigenetics question and appreciate your presence in my journal!!

 

[The303Stoner]

Re: Icemud's Grow 4.0..High Brix focus with Gas Lamp Routine..V-Scrog

the green house grows on thewebtube cover the ec they use on some of there strains.

 

[Icemud]

Re: Icemud's Grow 4.0..High Brix focus with Gas Lamp Routine..V-Scrog

this thread is awesome. great update ice, looks amazing in there! organic bud deff smells more intense than any other grown. question for anyone really, do any of you growers count flowering from when stretch stops? or count from when you first see pubes showing? or do you count from when you switch to 12/12 ?

I count from day one that the lights go into 12/12 or in my case 11/13.... so far I have only stepped the time down by 1/2 once, so now they are at a 10.5/13.5 and at the end of this week I will knock them down to 10/14 where they will stay for the remainder of the grow, with the exception of the final week in which they may only get 9/15, but it will be hard to treat them all this way because of the different strains, so far I am happy with this sort of diminishing light schedule and will continue to use it for now

 

[Icemud]

Re: Icemud's Grow 4.0..High Brix focus with Gas Lamp Routine..V-Scrog

I've done this. It does make very bushy plants (they look kind of bizarre), but takes forever. It's been awhile, but I recall it took at least 3 weeks until a flowering clone would start growing vigorously again.

I haven't read too much into clones yet and the different methods of taking them, but I do remember that I read somewhere that If you take clones near the base of the plant they have more rooting hormone accumulated and result in better success but I don't have much experience to really comment on the cloning as far as where to take cuts from... I appreciate the suggestions and this definitely gives me something else to learn more about... I love learning about growing If more people were allowed to grow, I think more people might also have gardens or get into gardening, and then more people are eating healthier... only if it were true and weed was finally legalized

 

[Icemud]

Re: Icemud's Grow 4.0..High Brix focus with Gas Lamp Routine..V-Scrog

and


Always great things to see in your journal Ice, old pal!!

GT

Hey Buddy!!! happy that you could come by and check on things so far the way these ladies smell I think it will be my best grow yet.. they reak with goodness

 

[ajagunle]

Re: Icemud's Grow 4.0..High Brix focus with Gas Lamp Routine..V-Scrog

If the clone of a clone of a clone starts to deteriorate could this further support the ‘theory’ that the plant reacts, or acclimatizes, to its environment over time, the more evident the more you re-clone? The starting point for each level of re-clone will be further down the road, good or bad. If the environment is not ‘perfect’ could it be activating triggers that have a detrimental effect on the quality for us Humans?

With conditions that activate triggers resulting in your plants obvious health I think it is likely this will improve with each ‘generation’ and the minute it doesn’t you will have answered the question on how many times you can beneficially re-clone for your set up.


Thank you for your major contribution, albeit unbeknown to you until now, to my ‘picture’ of what success looks like

 

[mcloadie]

Re: Icemud's Grow 4.0..High Brix focus with Gas Lamp Routine..V-Scrog

I suspect; that since we are cultivating an annual plant, the clone or cutting will inherit the same " age " as the parent plant. That being said, I think it's a possibility that the indications that we note on the deterioration of quality in cuttings taken over time may be more related to the lifespan of an individual plant and not so much the geneology...clone from clone from clone. This theory should be easy to prove or disprove. Make two mothers. Take cuttings from a mother plant, then take clone from clone continuously for 7 months, this will be our control. Let the other mother grow for the same amount of time, and take a cutting from it. Grow them out and finish em, and you can get an idea about how it works. I have my ideas for my okie experiments, knowing that accepted scientific studies require thousands of plants and trials., But I still remember in school that we bred plants according to proven methods, then applied formulas for predicting results, with SMALL groups of plants, and if you did the math right, you would get exactly what you predicted. The indicator in these studies was color, because it's easily interpreted. Intelligence can be gathered from any trial or experiment, it's up to us to accurately interpret the findings.

 

[Doc Bud]

Re: Icemud's Grow 4.0..High Brix focus with Gas Lamp Routine..V-Scrog

That's weird Doc that you just replied because last night when I was typing this up I was hoping that you would stop on over and help out with the yellowing issue...its like you felt the high brix force calling out to you...lol I was leaning towards either N deficiency or low soil energy and the night before last I was reading about soil EC after you had mentioned it on your journal and so I looked into it trying to find any information on the proper EC for high brix growing but came up without much certain information on it. Any ideas that you have on HBX EC levels? The only site I came across was this:

420 MAGAZINE



I was curious about this so I decided to run some 0ppm water through my soil to see what the ppm in the runoff is. I know that this is not the sifted, 50/50 ratio that would be used in a true ec test, however I still figured it may have some relavance to what I am seeing within the plants.

I have 5 gallon pots and used 2 gallons of water at least per pot taking a sample after the tray freshly filled up and the results were kind of as expected. The plants that were yellowing the most, the runoff was up around 1500-1600ppm which would translate to around an EC of 2.2-2.3 and the plants with the least yellowing were around 850-1250ppm which would be around a 1.2-1.7EC which would make sense with what is mentioned above.. now I know that the run off is not the best for an accurate test since you are not using equal portions of water, but the trend in yellowing vs raised soil EC has me leaning towards their might be a little too much "energy" going on for the roots to handle or that I have given them quite a bit of teas with some earthjuice that contains guano's and fish fertz. Being that N is used by the microbes as one of their energy sources with a high energy in the soil I was leaning to believe that this may be the reason for what somewhat resembles a N deficiency. I was thinking that the N was being used by the explosion of microlife draining the available N from the plants...but still was unsure... Now that is just my medicated mind basing an idea off of some of what I have read, but still unsure exactly because I didn't do a proper EC test to confirm my suspicion. But I believe it is either that the soil energy is too low, or too high. ??? I also just for "hits and grins" used my handy dandy soil probe to check the soil ph, just to make sure things were good and all 6 plants were sitting right between 6.7 and 6.4 so I know the soil ph is just fine... so that also helped me formulate the above thought as well...

I definitely agree that it has something to do with the soil energy and I do have some botanicare cal mag which I do believe is calcium nitrate, with a little amount of Iron added, the cal mag ratio is only 2:1 so its not Ideal for high brix, but I do have my general organics cal mag which is enzyme digested cal:mag with a 5:1 ratio and added humic acid and raw cane molasses...so i think that will be my next feeding... I do also have the calcium carbonate but don't think at this point since my soil is reinforced with it that it would be needed..On the last 2 feedings I gave them fulvic acid instead of humic acid since fulvic strips available nutrients, bonds and is available for plant uptake, where humic acid bonds with the ions but acts more of a reserve for the ions, I figured this may help to deliver more N to the plants then to the microbes... so far the yellowing has been holding steady, but not really improving much either... so I think I will try the above mix next feeding, sit back and see what happens.

Love that you chimed in with your ideas and I even am more happy that your confirmation of a soil energy problem I was starting to lean towards... much appreciation for you DocBud!!!! btw I am always reading your journals, even though I keep the comments to a minimum.. very much thank you doc for your advice..

CE and EC are not the same thing!

Cation exchange refers to the ability of the soil to "catch" cations and then exchange them for hydrogen when the root hairs and microbes excrete humic acids, fulvic acids and polysacharides. Little clay particles in the soil have dangling negatively charge nooks, which form attraction for Cations, (NH₄⁺, K⁺, Ca²⁺, Fe²⁺, etc.) IF the CE is high, the soil readily grabs on to these bits of nutrition, thus making a "rich" soil.

Glass beads would have a very, very low CEC, while organic matter often has a very high CEC, all other things being equal.

The reason I mentioned calcium nitrate is because the Calicium (Ca+2) is a highly charged cation, which will "dislodge" the particles "stuck" in the soil. Ditto Humic acid, which is the other thing I mentioned.

There's much more that can be said. The reason we get this problem once in while could be for many reasons, but in your case I suspect too much sugar in the feed water, and probably too much K as well. The worst thing than can happen is an abundance of aluminium in the soil, next worse is sodium.

All my organic soils were way too high in sodium.....you probably have the same problem as I did.

Back off on sugar. No more potassium, and give the humic acid/calcium nitrate a try!

Now.....EC is not at all the same as CEC. EC is basically PPM....CEC refers to the property of the soil to retain and exchange NH4, CA, K, etc.

 

[Strickly420]

Re: Icemud's Grow 4.0..High Brix focus with Gas Lamp Routine..V-Scrog

Lookking good! Its always so exciting when they start reaking! Is that skywalker smelling like the real skywalker og?

 

[Hiker]

Re: Icemud's Grow 4.0..High Brix focus with Gas Lamp Routine..V-Scrog

I haven't read too much into clones yet and the different methods of taking them, but I do remember that I read somewhere that If you take clones near the base of the plant they have more rooting hormone accumulated and result in better success but I don't have much experience to really comment on the cloning as far as where to take cuts from... I appreciate the suggestions and this definitely gives me something else to learn more about... I love learning about growing If more people were allowed to grow, I think more people might also have gardens or get into gardening, and then more people are eating healthier... only if it were true and weed was finally legalized

hmmmm I'm not sure about clones rooting faster based on where on the plant the cutting came from. It makes sense that hormone levels would be different in different areas of the plant. I know I used to take most of my clones from the little bottom branches, but not always. I can't say I recall noticing a difference, but that doesn't mean there isn't one. I'm definitely going to be keeping this in mind when I begin cloning my mothers.

 

[mcloadie]

Re: Icemud's Grow 4.0..High Brix focus with Gas Lamp Routine..V-Scrog

hmmmm I'm not sure about clones rooting faster based on where on the plant the cutting came from. It makes sense that hormone levels would be different in different areas of the plant. I know I used to take most of my clones from the little bottom branches, but not always. I can't say I recall noticing a difference, but that doesn't mean there isn't one. I'm definitely going to be keeping this in mind when I begin cloning my mothers.

It is a possibility that the chemicals required to initiate root production are more concentrated nearer the root system of the plant itself. I have a clone from a clone, that was taken in flower, put back in flower as soon as it rooted, had a colloidal silver treatment every day for a month, got about an eighth ounce of buds on it I couldn't smoke, I cut almost all that out of it, put it back into 24on and has four branches, about 3 inches long! This weed plant is amazing! all in two months!

 

[Hiker]

Re: Icemud's Grow 4.0..High Brix focus with Gas Lamp Routine..V-Scrog

It is a possibility that the chemicals required to initiate root production are more concentrated nearer the root system of the plant itself.

I agree. Maybe my post was misleading. I wasn't suggesting I disagreed. The comment was a result of my interest being sparked. It totally makes sense. I've just never noticed that correlation. I'll be sure to keep notes about where on a plant each clone came from.

 

[mcloadie]

Re: Icemud's Grow 4.0..High Brix focus with Gas Lamp Routine..V-Scrog

I agree. Maybe my post was misleading. I wasn't suggesting I disagreed. The comment was a result of my interest being sparked. It totally makes sense. I've just never noticed that correlation. I'll be sure to keep notes about where on a plant each clone came from.

Not misleading at all, I'm very interested also and I am looking closely at my technique. If I stumble on anything interesting I'll bounce it back to you and get your opinions. My current grow is only the second time i've used cuttings, and the first time was just something shoved in the ground I was going to throw away....got an ounce of dank off of 12" plant. I've got pics of it! I will say this, If I pay 20$ for a seed, I'm gonna get my monies worth...LOL

 

[Doc Bud]

Re: Icemud's Grow 4.0..High Brix focus with Gas Lamp Routine..V-Scrog

I'm getting very close to 100% success on clones right now. I take all of them from the bottom of the plant. I used to try to clone the tops when I top in veg....but I have better success using the lower most branches.

Dip 'em in clonex, shove 'em in a Rapid Rooter, put 'em under the dome, spray daily with a neat spray I have and take a peak a week later. Roots!!!!

I look for a woody stem, something that sticks in the plug like a toothpick.

 

[Hiker]

Re: Icemud's Grow 4.0..High Brix focus with Gas Lamp Routine..V-Scrog

I look for a woody stem, something that sticks in the plug like a toothpick.

Good tip. I do recall I liked the woodier stems. They wouldn't droop at the beginning. When I clone the very top top, I have to cut pretty far down to get to strong stem.

 

[Icemud]

Re: Icemud's Grow 4.0..High Brix focus with Gas Lamp Routine..V-Scrog

Hey everyone, Day 42 Flowering update....

So I decided to give Docbud's recommendation a try on the skwalker ogs, and the blue dreams by giving the girls a feeding of calcium nitrate and humic acid. I mixed up 5 gallons of ro di water and added:
40ml of humbolt humic acid
40ml of botanicare cal mag... calcium nitrate with magnesium and iron 3:1 cal to mag..
since the cal to mag ratio was low I also added 6tbs of general organics cal mag which is a 5:1

I watered both blue dreams and both skywalker og's and left the bubba's alone because their soil is still pretty moist.

We will wait and see what happens.. If this doesn't green them up, then I will go with my other suspicion of too high of a salt accumulation/EC and give a good medium flush until the levels come down, and follow with a low dose soil drench..

The plants minus the yellowing are looking incredible and smelling amazing for only a little over 1 1/4 months in flowering... The blue dream smells very very pungent and I know it is definitely the real cut of blue dream.. eye watering potent smell
The skywalker og also I know is of a true og by the bud formation as well as the very trademark og funk, with a slight purple hint to it..I believe this also is the real cut..
And for the pre 98, well its definitely a bubba by its trademark smell and growth patterns...starting to really build up trichomes..


As of now all trichomes are still clear

My clone tent is also looking amazing, as mentioned before, they look like "toy plants". The leaves look like molded plastic, are very shiny and thick, and have a very plastic type feel to them... very impressed and think I may have got the soil mix right on this one... no nutrients for these guys and have just some plain water filling up (ro/di) to feed them tonight

blue dream

Pre 98 Bubba

Skywalker OG

Veg Tent