Jon’s 3 Autoflower - 3 Pounds Attempt Grow
- Thread starter Jon
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- #862
I broke down and took a tester bud to slowly bake in the toaster oven. This is one of the lowest buds on the plant and is one that wasn’t getting a ton of light. It’s a lot more dense than I expected.
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- #863
2x 1:25 on one slice and darkness level one.I broke down and took a tester bud to slowly bake in the toaster oven. This is one of the lowest buds on the plant and is one that wasn’t getting a ton of light. It’s a lot more dense than I expected.
Perfectly dried (actually overly so) but not even the least bit singed. Of all the dumb skills to be getting better at.
It works.
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- #864
Here’s a question for anyone who might know:
Is there any kind of scientific paper or study or organized data on when in the flowering cycle the thc flows into the plant and at what rate? I can’t find such a thing if it exists. All I know is as clear goes to white the thc increases. As it then goes to amber it is essentially degrading in terms of thc level. Peak thc would be in a perfect world every trichome fully white with no clear and no amber, something none of us will ever witness (wouldn’t that be awesome though? Lol).
This is why it matters: if all the thc expression is basically packed into the last two weeks of flower, then one day DOES make a difference. If it’s more consistent start to finish in flower despite having clear trichomes, one day probably does NOT make a difference.
So scientific paper or not, anyone with input on this topic would be enlightening likely more people than just me!
Is there any kind of scientific paper or study or organized data on when in the flowering cycle the thc flows into the plant and at what rate? I can’t find such a thing if it exists. All I know is as clear goes to white the thc increases. As it then goes to amber it is essentially degrading in terms of thc level. Peak thc would be in a perfect world every trichome fully white with no clear and no amber, something none of us will ever witness (wouldn’t that be awesome though? Lol).
This is why it matters: if all the thc expression is basically packed into the last two weeks of flower, then one day DOES make a difference. If it’s more consistent start to finish in flower despite having clear trichomes, one day probably does NOT make a difference.
So scientific paper or not, anyone with input on this topic would be enlightening likely more people than just me!
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- #865
Medusa
Forbidden Runtz
I guess she’s gonna get gigantic too. All three of these autos are now big enough that not having them overlap in the tent is impossible. The WWC is simply too big. And the White Widow is just beginning to stretch. She’s going to get bigger too yet. So I think I have decided to move Medusa into the 3x3 to finish and give the big tent to the WWC and WW. I think all three will be happier. That can happen a few hours after I harvest the BS.
Forbidden Runtz
I guess she’s gonna get gigantic too. All three of these autos are now big enough that not having them overlap in the tent is impossible. The WWC is simply too big. And the White Widow is just beginning to stretch. She’s going to get bigger too yet. So I think I have decided to move Medusa into the 3x3 to finish and give the big tent to the WWC and WW. I think all three will be happier. That can happen a few hours after I harvest the BS.
That is a great question, and if you find an answer, I'd love to know.
I'm an oddball (in so many ways
), I really enjoy a good mix of CBN in mine...seems to take care of the pain extremely well.I've even been taking THC/CBN soft gel pills lately, it really helps me sleep.
My understanding is that the plant produces CBG-A on leaves and flowers (sometimes stems) which then gets converted into the various other cannabinoids. So CBG-A to each cbc-a, cbd-a, cbh-a, thc-a, etc. And then, thc-a at least, converts to thc with a combination of time and temperature at least as it dries and cures and then further converts over time to cbn.
You don't actually have to heat it if you've got enough time (but who has that, really, and even so, why wait?)
I don't think the thc-a or any of them are flowing but the mother cannabinoid, cbg-a, is being produced and then converts to the others. But I don't know at what rate and if some are faster to convert than others. I think @cbdhemp808 has said for cbd plants they must be harvested before some specific time to keep the thc levels below some threshold.
Don't ask me how it knows how much of each to produce, but that code must be in the genetics.
I believe that's coded into the genetics as well. As you mentioned, CBGa will convert to whatever cannabinoid is programmed into the plant from birth, so it's not going to change to THC given enough time. Maybe his plants have higher levels of THC in them that he's short circuiting by harvesting before the CBGa has time to become THC, but I haven't found that CBD plants need to be harvested any differently from THC plants to maximize their potency.
Doesn't matter how long I wait to harvest my Candidas the THC doesn't rise. It's always below 1%.
But different cbd strains have different percentages of thc-a and to stay legal as a commercial cbd product there is some regulated maximum level.
The Agriculture Improvement Act of 2018 states:
"The term `hemp' means the plant Cannabis sativa L. and any part of that plant, including the seeds thereof and all derivatives, extracts, cannabinoids, isomers, acids, salts, and salts of isomers, whether growing or not, with a delta-9 tetrahydrocannabinol concentration of not more than 0.3 percent on a dry weight basis."
Source
"The term `hemp' means the plant Cannabis sativa L. and any part of that plant, including the seeds thereof and all derivatives, extracts, cannabinoids, isomers, acids, salts, and salts of isomers, whether growing or not, with a delta-9 tetrahydrocannabinol concentration of not more than 0.3 percent on a dry weight basis."
Source
cbdhemp808
Well-Known Member
[please excuse me for stating the obvious and well-known – this is intended as general info for anyone who may benefit.]
CBG is known as the Mother of the Cannabinoids – it's the precursor for all the others. CBGA is converted specifically to THCA, CBDA, and CBCA by enzymes in the trichomes.
The primary way that we get THC is by heating the material containing the THCA, which is called decarboxylation (decarb). (The same is true for CBDA to CBD, and CBGA to CBG.) This happens "on the fly" during smoking or vaping dried bud. For concentrates – i.e. oils and tinctures – it is possible to decarb during the extraction process. The decarb temp for THC is 220-230°F. For CBG, it's 230°F. For CBD, it's a bit higher – 230-245°F. Some people generalize to the magic number of 240°F for the fastest decarb. At 246° the main terpenes start evaporating.
It's true, THC will degrade into CBN over time. (I have not studied CBN.)
Regarding keeping CBD plants below the THC threshold (for a legal hemp grow), this is just a side effect of the government's arbitrary selection of the 0.30% THC limit. What that means is, the above curve that I mentioned isn't allowed to peak out – the grower must monitor THC and harvest accordingly. If you are growing plants for CBD, this means you're going to lose a significant amount of potential CBD.
It's important to keep in mind that there are 5 cannabis chemotypes, which classify strains/cultivars of cannabis based on cannabinoid ratios:
So, if you are growing Type III, which is often called CBD hemp, then the natural amount of THC at full ripeness of flower is usually around 1% (or less). Hence, the need to harvest early to keep THC at or below the federal legal limit of 0.30%... if you are doing a legal hemp grow.
Azi said...
RE: I think cbdhemp808 has said for cbd plants they must be harvested before some specific time to keep the thc levels below some threshold.
Legally speaking, virtually all Type III plants will start out as "hemp" (i.e. not more than 0.30% THC), and end up as "marijuana" (over 0.30% THC). (I'm talking about the flower here, because they contain roughly 90% of the cannabinoids.)
So, to answer the question... do different CBD strains have different percentages of THC? My answer to that is, most of what people are referring to as a "CBD strain" will have no more than 1% THC. This means virtually all of them need to be harvested early to stay at or below 0.30% THC (for a legal hemp grow).
What this means is, if you are growing hemp, you can't let your flowers go over 0.30% THC, or you'll have to destroy the crop. (When you get a lab test, the amount of THCA and THC is added up according to a simple formula that estimates decarboxylation.)
It also means, if you are producing oils or extracts, those consumer products must also contain no more than 0.30% THC. (Herein lies some stupidity in the regulations, because all you need to do is consume enough of the product to "get high". CBD oil is in fact psychoactive, due to its small THC content – you just need to consume enough of it to get the effects.)
An alcohol extract of CBD buds could easily be much higher than 0.30% THC, and hence would need to be diluted in order to meet the legal threshold.
And what about CBD hash? Ha ha... nobody talks about that! Let's say we are working with a 20% CBD strain (containing 1% THC). This means that the CBD in the dried flower is 20% by weight. Hash is typically 3x the potency, so if we made hash out of these CBD buds, we could get a product that's 60% CBD and 3% THC.
And now for the dosing... a typical dose of CBD oil contains 40 mg CBD, so how much of our 60% CBD hash would we need to consume to get 40 mg of CBD? A gram of this hash would contain 0.60 gram of CBD, or 600 mg. So, we would need 1/15 of a gram, or about 66.7 mg of hash, to get 40 mg CBD – if it was liquid, it would be about 1.5 drops worth.
What about the THC? A gram of the hash would contain 0.03 gram of THC, or 30 mg. A mid-range dose of THC in edibles is 30mg, so to reach this with our CBD hash, we would need consume the whole gram... less than 1/4 tsp. The CBD in that dose would be like drinking a 1 fl. oz. (600 mg) bottle of CBD oil! Hmm... that's a 20:1 CBD to THC dose... I wonder what that would feel like!
Cannabinoids are produced in the trichomes, which are on the buds and sugar leaves. 90% of the total THC in the plant is found in the trichomes. When you test some buds and they turn out 25% THC, that means THC makes up 25% of the dried flower by weight. Dried leaves contain from zero to 4% THC.
CBG is known as the Mother of the Cannabinoids – it's the precursor for all the others. CBGA is converted specifically to THCA, CBDA, and CBCA by enzymes in the trichomes.
The acid form of the molecule, THCA, is only slightly psychoactive. If you lab test a THC flower, you see mostly THCA, but also a small amount of THC.
The primary way that we get THC is by heating the material containing the THCA, which is called decarboxylation (decarb). (The same is true for CBDA to CBD, and CBGA to CBG.) This happens "on the fly" during smoking or vaping dried bud. For concentrates – i.e. oils and tinctures – it is possible to decarb during the extraction process. The decarb temp for THC is 220-230°F. For CBG, it's 230°F. For CBD, it's a bit higher – 230-245°F. Some people generalize to the magic number of 240°F for the fastest decarb. At 246° the main terpenes start evaporating.
It's true, THC will degrade into CBN over time. (I have not studied CBN.)
I have studied the charts for both THC and CBD production over time during the flowering cycle. The THC content curve climbs rapidly, and then levels out when the flower is ripe, then starts to drop. The same is basically true for a CBD flower. This curve represents the conversion of CBGA to THCA and CBDA.
Regarding keeping CBD plants below the THC threshold (for a legal hemp grow), this is just a side effect of the government's arbitrary selection of the 0.30% THC limit. What that means is, the above curve that I mentioned isn't allowed to peak out – the grower must monitor THC and harvest accordingly. If you are growing plants for CBD, this means you're going to lose a significant amount of potential CBD.
It's important to keep in mind that there are 5 cannabis chemotypes, which classify strains/cultivars of cannabis based on cannabinoid ratios:
I (1) - high THC and low CBD
II (2) - medium to high amounts of both THC and CBD
III (3) - high CBD and very low THC
IV (4) - CBG and little to no THC or CBD
V (5) - no cannabinoids
So, if you are growing Type III, which is often called CBD hemp, then the natural amount of THC at full ripeness of flower is usually around 1% (or less). Hence, the need to harvest early to keep THC at or below the federal legal limit of 0.30%... if you are doing a legal hemp grow.
Azi said...
RE: I think cbdhemp808 has said for cbd plants they must be harvested before some specific time to keep the thc levels below some threshold.
Again, CBGA is converted specifically to THCA, CBDA, and CBCA by enzymes in the trichomes. The ratios of these 3 main cannabinoids is specific to the chemotype, and to the particular strain's genetics.
The confusion is in the difference between growing "hemp" according to government rules vs. growing high-CBD cannabis for full potency. I am currently growing the latter, and also THC and CBG plants.
Legally speaking, virtually all Type III plants will start out as "hemp" (i.e. not more than 0.30% THC), and end up as "marijuana" (over 0.30% THC). (I'm talking about the flower here, because they contain roughly 90% of the cannabinoids.)
Candida is a classic Type III... high CBD (10-20%), while THC doesn't get above 1%. However, if you were to harvest Candida early, before the flowers are completely ripe, you'd get varying amounts of THC – the earlier you harvest, the less THC (and CBD).
The definition of what constitutes a "CBD strain" has changed in recent history. Perhaps 10 years ago, when people used the term "CBD strain," they were usually talking about a THC strain that contained significant amounts of CBD (i.e. chemotype II). About 7 years ago, strains began to emerge from selective breeding that were high CBD and very low THC (i.e. chemotype III). I would say most of these strains are around 8-12% CBD. Some phenos can reach up to 18-24% CBD (these are known as 20:1 – i.e. when CBD is 20%, THC is 1%). A small number of CBD strains are in the range 13-17% CBD. There are also industrial hemp cultivars that contain significant amounts of CBD, but these are typically less than 8% CBD, for example 4% CBD.
So, to answer the question... do different CBD strains have different percentages of THC? My answer to that is, most of what people are referring to as a "CBD strain" will have no more than 1% THC. This means virtually all of them need to be harvested early to stay at or below 0.30% THC (for a legal hemp grow).
Yes, that's the hemp production section of the 2018 federal Farm Bill, which is currently the law. The federal legal limit for hemp production is 0.30% THC. (There is talk of increasing this limit to 1% in the 2023 Farm Bill.)
What this means is, if you are growing hemp, you can't let your flowers go over 0.30% THC, or you'll have to destroy the crop. (When you get a lab test, the amount of THCA and THC is added up according to a simple formula that estimates decarboxylation.)
It also means, if you are producing oils or extracts, those consumer products must also contain no more than 0.30% THC. (Herein lies some stupidity in the regulations, because all you need to do is consume enough of the product to "get high". CBD oil is in fact psychoactive, due to its small THC content – you just need to consume enough of it to get the effects.)
An alcohol extract of CBD buds could easily be much higher than 0.30% THC, and hence would need to be diluted in order to meet the legal threshold.
And what about CBD hash? Ha ha... nobody talks about that! Let's say we are working with a 20% CBD strain (containing 1% THC). This means that the CBD in the dried flower is 20% by weight. Hash is typically 3x the potency, so if we made hash out of these CBD buds, we could get a product that's 60% CBD and 3% THC.
And now for the dosing... a typical dose of CBD oil contains 40 mg CBD, so how much of our 60% CBD hash would we need to consume to get 40 mg of CBD? A gram of this hash would contain 0.60 gram of CBD, or 600 mg. So, we would need 1/15 of a gram, or about 66.7 mg of hash, to get 40 mg CBD – if it was liquid, it would be about 1.5 drops worth.
What about the THC? A gram of the hash would contain 0.03 gram of THC, or 30 mg. A mid-range dose of THC in edibles is 30mg, so to reach this with our CBD hash, we would need consume the whole gram... less than 1/4 tsp. The CBD in that dose would be like drinking a 1 fl. oz. (600 mg) bottle of CBD oil! Hmm... that's a 20:1 CBD to THC dose... I wonder what that would feel like!
I was obviously unaware that you had a requirement to stay on the legal side of the 2018 law, as most of us here growing high CBD varieties have no concern about legal liability, just preference.
Virtually all of them for commercial sale rather than personal use. For personal use the difference between .3% and 1% THC is really meaningless, unless you're screened at your job, in which case I suggest commercially extracted and tested CBD from hemp.
cbdhemp808
Well-Known Member
read again... I'm not.
Sorry, I thought you were referring to your own experience.
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- #875
Amazing post. Thanks so much.
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- #876
Melinda
Banana Sherbet
Day 86
Partial Harvest
I took what you see. I left what you see. I’m gonna let the rest go a couple more days and try and get some more density from her. What I took is ready, arguably, but could easily have been left too. It’s dense but could be denser. And the hairs can curl in more. I took a whole bunch of branches in the first quarter of the scrog which are hung, non-bud-washed, pending my baking soda and lemon juice arrival today. The rest will get washed and I’ll compare. Everything I took is pretty much as long as my forearm as shown in the picture. The line of buds I took hangs in an unused bathroom and covered the tub long ways with the buds as close together as possible without touching. It’s a good three or four ounces or so dried I think. The very bottom buds are a bit flarfy but not terribly bad. Only a handful will get chopped up into the Trim Bin. But already I see that my scrog difficulties didn’t end with the 3x3. I’d have been much more aggressive in the back left, but the buds got too big and I couldn’t reach. So that corner is going to have its share of flarf. I can see big fans that I couldn’t get to blocking buds. Lol. Anyway, so far so good. Part 1 is done.
Banana Sherbet
Day 86
Partial Harvest
I took what you see. I left what you see. I’m gonna let the rest go a couple more days and try and get some more density from her. What I took is ready, arguably, but could easily have been left too. It’s dense but could be denser. And the hairs can curl in more. I took a whole bunch of branches in the first quarter of the scrog which are hung, non-bud-washed, pending my baking soda and lemon juice arrival today. The rest will get washed and I’ll compare. Everything I took is pretty much as long as my forearm as shown in the picture. The line of buds I took hangs in an unused bathroom and covered the tub long ways with the buds as close together as possible without touching. It’s a good three or four ounces or so dried I think. The very bottom buds are a bit flarfy but not terribly bad. Only a handful will get chopped up into the Trim Bin. But already I see that my scrog difficulties didn’t end with the 3x3. I’d have been much more aggressive in the back left, but the buds got too big and I couldn’t reach. So that corner is going to have its share of flarf. I can see big fans that I couldn’t get to blocking buds. Lol. Anyway, so far so good. Part 1 is done.
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- #877
Btw @Rexer - my idea when I do the rest is to give us the best possible visual of our first node branch and what it made of the whole. So I’m going to chop everything else except what’s on that branch. Then I can get a picture of the scrog just with the first node and we’ll get a really good idea. Sound like a plan?Melinda
Banana Sherbet
Day 86
Partial Harvest
I took what you see. I left what you see. I’m gonna let the rest go a couple more days and try and get some more density from her. What I took is ready, arguably, but could easily have been left too. It’s dense but could be denser. And the hairs can curl in more. I took a whole bunch of branches in the first quarter of the scrog which are hung, non-bud-washed, pending my baking soda and lemon juice arrival today. The rest will get washed and I’ll compare. Everything I took is pretty much as long as my forearm as shown in the picture. The line of buds I took hangs in an unused bathroom and covered the tub long ways with the buds as close together as possible without touching. It’s a good three or four ounces or so dried I think. The very bottom buds are a bit flarfy but not terribly bad. Only a handful will get chopped up into the Trim Bin. But already I see that my scrog difficulties didn’t end with the 3x3. I’d have been much more aggressive in the back left, but the buds got too big and I couldn’t reach. So that corner is going to have its share of flarf. I can see big fans that I couldn’t get to blocking buds. Lol. Anyway, so far so good. Part 1 is done.
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- #878
White Widow
Watermelon WeddingCake Branches
Stacking like a champ! Of the two WWC branches, the first picture is an upper cola, second is a lower ring cola. She’s stacking like this all around!!
Watermelon WeddingCake Branches
Stacking like a champ! Of the two WWC branches, the first picture is an upper cola, second is a lower ring cola. She’s stacking like this all around!!
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- #879
- Thread starter
- #880
Far away & up close….heh.
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