My newest young plant in coco got nuked - How did that happen?

[Acid]

I just did a.. royal flush, if that explains it the best. I probably moved 6-7 gallons of water through my 5gal pot, maybe that wasn't even enough? But I felt like "just watering normally" after almost killing my plants with the citric acid, didn't really remove the threat in this huge amount of substrate.

So I did a heavy flush with PHed water, this time with phosphoric acid as PH down. I gotta say, the water that came out was brown, then amber, and now it's 99% clear. It took a while because I did it slowly, to not just have water runoff the fabric of the pot.

I now added a full gallon of PHed water at 1.6EC with nutrients and (organic coco) boosters, and of course phosphoric acid to PH it down at 5.9 this time, for a good middle spot. Had a bit more runoff than I'm used to, but that's because I wanted to saturate every inch of the soil with the now stable and nutrient enriched water.

The pot is chilling in the bath tub right now, so it can all drip out until we're good again. Then it's back into the tent, and I'll do the normal daily water schedule then to see where I'll land.

Good and bad news: The damage is even more severe right now, and it will probably still become more over the next few days, but the newest growth is actually moving now and coming out in a healthy green! It was stuck for over one week now with NO growth, so I see this as a very good sign.

 

[Th3Grow3rNooB]

Dilute your phosphoric acid to about 5% strength and it will be easier to use. As a general rule you need to run lower pH in veg and early flower and raise pH at mid to late flower running containers

Your water will work fine in containers and you'll save money on the "Calmag" use since you only need to add small amounts of Epsom salt to balance your tap water. 0.13g per liter or 0.5g per gallon of water. That will only raise the total of your base water by ~30ppm.

Glad someone else mentioned this. Alot of growers believe sticking to 5.8 PH throughout is ideal. Phosphorus and other essential flowering nutes, along with the fact that water is more easily absorbed at the lower roots in flower with a more alkaline water, gives them that little more oompth at the end.

 

[bluter]

Glad someone else mentioned this. Alot of growers believe sticking to 5.8 PH throughout is ideal. Phosphorus and other essential flowering nutes, along with the fact that water is more easily absorbed at the lower roots in flower with a more alkaline water, gives them that little more oompth at the end.

if you feed proper your ph will drift upward a little, as it does you gain the higher range. when starting higher you are robbing them of the lower range and encouraging issues long term.

there is no good reason to bounce around feeding at different ph.

 

[Th3Grow3rNooB]

My PH only rises when i am under feeding. Drops when it is over fed.. Feeding at different PH's ( Slowly adjusting ) Has never fooled around with my runoff.

 

[bluter]

My PH only rises when i am under feeding. Drops when it is over fed.. Feeding at different PH's ( Slowly adjusting ) Has never fooled around with my runoff.

do you have a plan to square that when you have to increase your ec levels and change the mix for flower ?

 

[Th3Grow3rNooB]

do you have a plan to square that when you have to increase your ec levels and change the mix for flower ?

Call me obsessed, but i check EC 3 times a week and have different Res's. E.g. I am feeding right now 1.4 EC ( Thanks to Bill ) With RunOff @ 1.6ish, I feed 2 times a day atm with 15 % RunOff. If this creeps to 1.7/1.8 ish i will give her a lighter dose from a different Res for the day or maybe 2, untill we are out of that danger zone & back to 0.2EC within input EC. Of course, if they dont climb in EC @ 1.4 Feeds, and show promse, i up the feed.

Feeding once a day after previous experiences is risky, of course depending on the size of youre plants as opposed to its pot. A good size plant in a decent pot in flower, will always climb in EC if only fed once a day in my expererince, due to it drinking faster, leaving behind excess salts, which will raise EC. ( EDIT: It should be noted that we are hot and dry here in Australia, which despite best efforts, still effects in-door enviroment, so plants here tend to dry up alot faster then USA / UK etc. )

I not sure if my ramble explains what the question was, except that my input PH has no effect at all other then a better end result. I have fed all the way through @ 5.8 PH, My findings is that my larger flowering plants feed better and keep a more solid EC range when fed @ 6.0 / 6.2 PH MAX. I start this @ Week 4ish.

If you actualy read companies Nute PH ranges on the charts, alot of them now you will notice are starting to introduce this method. Its new Science but takes the idiots in the companies a decade to figure it out. Much like Bill with Silica. The stuff literally is redundant unless added hours before the rest of nutes, thanks to him, adding this seprate to my normal feed has again improved things... Yet Company Feed Charts have no mention of this issue. Always learning ...

Below, a random chart i got from a store just sussing out a new line or whatever. I could find you many more.. Some growers now are going as far as 6.3 / 6.4 PH, bit high for my prefernce, however, we know Coco absorbs between 5.5 & 6.5 PH, with Phos uptaking alot better at PH's above 6.

 

[marcus611a]

Silicate messes with the other nutrients.
Don't mix it with nutrients.
Once a week in veg after feeding I give every girl a drink of Silicate.
Otherwise you have to wait forever for it to setup properly.
Just skip the Silicate for now anyway.
Until they are healthy.




Stay safe
Bill284

i never knew that Bill thanx. i always mix it with my other nutes making sure silicate added 1st.

 

[Acid]

Lots of interesting stuff to read here, it's funny what started all of this.

To get things sorted: The suspect (citric acid by biobizz as PH down) has been removed, and only get used for its intended use in the organic grow I have on the side. I now use GH PH Down, already severely flushed both coco plants to get EVERYTHING out of there, and then re-fed the big one with 5.8 or 5.9PH @ 1.6EC, and the smaller one at 1.3 or 1.4EC. There is no obvious change yet, but I do see new growth appearing a bit more greener, and also generally new growth as stated in my last post here. I may just be delusional and imagining things, but I do in fact think that something's changing for the better after this hellride.

My current update after a few days is.. nothing special. Leaves are still dying at the big plant, there isn't much left of it. to be honest. The once huge pretty dark green leaves I had? They somehow got all strange big light brown spots all over it, it's funky. I'm currently putting big hopes into the newest growth, but it's all oh so slow. My temps recently got wonderful, I'm running 25°C / 77°F after I lowered my inline fan a bit, but it also raised humidity to 60-65%, which still seems fine so far. Not perfect, but.. fine.

Here's the big girl, in all her (depressing) glory. Growth is slow, green is yellow, there's almost no healthy green left:

Here's the smaller sister of the same strain, looking a bit stupid, but I have hope. Yep, that plant already has a few weeks on it, almost a month now since germinating. It once looked a bit bigger, but pretty much ALL leaves died off, there was just nothing left, I touched them, they fell off:

And as a final, my auto in a completely different substrate (organic peat by biobizz):

See those wonderful praying leaves? The actually healthy colors at first? It never stops praying, it's INSANELY happy, not once overwatered or drooping, my timing was so perfect, yet I still had this dumb lockout for no reason at all.

It also got stunned out of nowhere, with the same exact symptoms that once killed my first two autos. Severe yellowing of the newest growth, from the inside outwards. It somehow also disappeared again, and til this day I have no idea how this always happens to my autos in peat moss. This always f-s up the growth / veg time, leaving me with almost nothing. I literally ignored this brat, as I was focused on my coco photo plants, I let her dry out fully, yet I still had this severe lockout at perfect PH and perfect dry times.

I had so much hope for this girl, her leaves were so pretty, dark green, no tips drooping, just a prime example of healthy plant. She grew so fast, the node spacing is out of this world, the growth is wonderful, yet somehow I still f-ed it up, as a stunted auto is already a severe mistake. I did top it, yes, because I felt like if it's already killing itself, I might just go for it. It did recover a few days later and the leaves grew out green again (mostly):

As a last word, I had a friend here with several successful grows. Same water source (he lives close), and same substrate and nutrients (both biobizz) for the autoflower. He never had those problems, even though he has the same setup as me. He didn't know what to tell me, as the substrate was fine, everything was fine. Just completely clueless. He doesn't dechlorinate, he doesn't oxygenate his water, and his PH pen is a $8 Amazon pen. Yeah, that hurt me when I heard that Especially because it works for him. I'm glad it does, but it HURT me personally because mine just die.

With the coco grow he couldn't help at all, as he's never tried coco, he's 100% into organics. He wished he could help me, but he just said that all his plants grow wonderfully at mind-numbingly high RH (80% and up), average temperatures, and the same stuff I use. I'm just cursed.

 

[Th3Grow3rNooB]

Our freind Bill here has helped me a ton with general Coco issues mate. You dont need to copy someones schedule to a tee, however incooperating others ideas into youre own can help you so much. I recommend looking through his work here, or even shooting him a message as he doesnt seem to mind helping out a fellow Coco Loco

Coco can be a bit tedious for some, however, following the simple basic rules that Bill has is the best start.
( Says me who feeds outside of the 5.8 PH Range Bill says to stay within for entire cycle ) Love ya Bill !

 

[Bill284]

i never knew that Bill thanx. i always mix it with my other nutes making sure silicate added 1st.

I never knew how bad it was in flower until I read in your thread, thanks.
I heard some of the best news I could have imagined the other day.
I hope everything comes together for you on your house purchase.
Smartest move you can make.
All the best my friend.
PS. Silicate once a week after feeding. Just a drink.
In plain water by itself.
Otherwise it can disrupt the uptake symmetry.




#VIVOSUN #Love What You Grow
Bill284

 

[marcus611a]

I never knew how bad it was in flower until I read in your thread, thanks.
I heard some of the best news I could have imagined the other day.
I hope everything comes together for you on your house purchase.
Smartest move you can make.
All the best my friend.
PS. Silicate once a week after feeding. Just a drink.
In plain water by itself.
Otherwise it can disrupt the uptake symmetry.




#VIVOSUN #Love What You Grow
Bill284

Thanks brother finally everything is coming together caught up lot of hell's been breaking loose but it's all good now and I can also soon keep my promises that I made..
So I guess as far as the potassium silicate goes while in veg I will feed and then the second time I water I will give potassium silicate. And when I switch to flower and I feed them every day I will only give them food when I give them their gallon or gallon and a half water whichever size pot I use and then on my off feedings and when I give 2 l A day I will pump them with potassium silicate. Thanx

 

[Wastei]

i never knew that Bill thanx. i always mix it with my other nutes making sure silicate added 1st.

I never ever had a problem running potassium silicate all the way through the grow. You have to mix it first though before adding anything else. If you add granules like Agsil16 it may take forever to dissolve but that's not a prepared solution for water cultures.

It act as a surfactant and if used properly it helps other minerals stay in solution.

Cheers!

 

[marcus611a]

I never ever had a problem running potassium silicate all the way through the grow. You have to mix it first though before adding anything else. If you add granules like Agsil16 it may take forever to dissolve but that's not a prepared solution for water cultures.

It act as a surfactant and if used properly it helps other minerals stay in solution.

Cheers!

That's how I was always told to do it and that's how I did it potassium silicate first then I put in my calcium and magnesium if I was going to use that then I'd add my Epsom salt so forth and so on. Everybody on here gets wonderful advice everybody grows in their own ways and we appreciate all

 

[bluter]

Call me obsessed, but i check EC 3 times a week and have different Res's. E.g. I am feeding right now 1.4 EC ( Thanks to Bill ) With RunOff @ 1.6ish, I feed 2 times a day atm with 15 % RunOff. If this creeps to 1.7/1.8 ish i will give her a lighter dose from a different Res for the day or maybe 2, untill we are out of that danger zone & back to 0.2EC within input EC. Of course, if they dont climb in EC @ 1.4 Feeds, and show promse, i up the feed.

Feeding once a day after previous experiences is risky, of course depending on the size of youre plants as opposed to its pot. A good size plant in a decent pot in flower, will always climb in EC if only fed once a day in my expererince, due to it drinking faster, leaving behind excess salts, which will raise EC. ( EDIT: It should be noted that we are hot and dry here in Australia, which despite best efforts, still effects in-door enviroment, so plants here tend to dry up alot faster then USA / UK etc. )

I not sure if my ramble explains what the question was, except that my input PH has no effect at all other then a better end result. I have fed all the way through @ 5.8 PH, My findings is that my larger flowering plants feed better and keep a more solid EC range when fed @ 6.0 / 6.2 PH MAX. I start this @ Week 4ish.

If you actualy read companies Nute PH ranges on the charts, alot of them now you will notice are starting to introduce this method. Its new Science but takes the idiots in the companies a decade to figure it out. Much like Bill with Silica. The stuff literally is redundant unless added hours before the rest of nutes, thanks to him, adding this seprate to my normal feed has again improved things... Yet Company Feed Charts have no mention of this issue. Always learning ...

Below, a random chart i got from a store just sussing out a new line or whatever. I could find you many more.. Some growers now are going as far as 6.3 / 6.4 PH, bit high for my prefernce, however, we know Coco absorbs between 5.5 & 6.5 PH, with Phos uptaking alot better at PH's above 6.

well, you've managed to take something simple and make it complicated lol

 

[Acid]

I never knew how bad it was in flower until I read in your thread, thanks.
I heard some of the best news I could have imagined the other day.
I hope everything comes together for you on your house purchase.
Smartest move you can make.
All the best my friend.
PS. Silicate once a week after feeding. Just a drink.
In plain water by itself.
Otherwise it can disrupt the uptake symmetry.




#VIVOSUN #Love What You Grow
Bill284

What about liquid silica? I have "Aptus Regulator", it's some insanely expensive juice, and apparently I have to mix it before adding anything else, and it's 100% available already then, without having to wait for it to activate. There's just scarce information about it, but this is what it is pretty much:


"Due to its highly-concentrated formula, Aptus Regulator should be applied frequently at a very low concentration throughout the grow and bloom cycle.

If plants are growing too high, a higher dosage of Regulator will help to slow down their length development.

A small dose is enough for visibly large results.

The main Aptus Regulator ingredient is Silica, known as silicic acid, but it also contains a mixture of bio-available trace elements. Silica is the main reason why the plant’s cell walls harden to create thicker stems and stronger leaves."

I read everywhere that silica is important for coco, so I got it & always used it in every watering at a very low dose (about 1 drop per 1L, so around 0.05ml per L, less than the recommended 0.15ml). Do you think I should just use it once a week or something like that? I currently leave that stuff out 100%, same for CalMag, as I'm just scared I'll hurt my plants even more. I only use the Canna Coco nutrient line right now at around 4ml/L A+B ea, and the two boosters rhizotonic and cannazym

 

[Roy Growin]

Mate, neither Rhizo or Zyme are boosters
Silica is totally unnecessary too
CaMg is necessary, 4ml/L A&B is bang on

 

[Bill284]

What about liquid silica? I have "Aptus Regulator", it's some insanely expensive juice, and apparently I have to mix it before adding anything else, and it's 100% available already then, without having to wait for it to activate. There's just scarce information about it, but this is what it is pretty much:


"Due to its highly-concentrated formula, Aptus Regulator should be applied frequently at a very low concentration throughout the grow and bloom cycle.

If plants are growing too high, a higher dosage of Regulator will help to slow down their length development.

A small dose is enough for visibly large results.

The main Aptus Regulator ingredient is Silica, known as silicic acid, but it also contains a mixture of bio-available trace elements. Silica is the main reason why the plant’s cell walls harden to create thicker stems and stronger leaves."

I read everywhere that silica is important for coco, so I got it & always used it in every watering at a very low dose (about 1 drop per 1L, so around 0.05ml per L, less than the recommended 0.15ml). Do you think I should just use it once a week or something like that? I currently leave that stuff out 100%, same for CalMag, as I'm just scared I'll hurt my plants even more. I only use the Canna Coco nutrient line right now at around 4ml/L A+B ea, and the two boosters rhizotonic and cannazym

Hey Acid Hope everything is going well my friend.
I'm referring to potassium silicate.
Once a week in plain water after feeding.
Cal - Mag replaces nutrients drained from your plant by your coco .
It also helps with your nutrient uptake.
I used it every feeding religiously.
I put it in my plain water first.
Then mix well for a couple minutes.
Then I would add the A , mix it then B.
Does Canna Coco nutrient contain calmag in them?
I have no experience with Aptus Regulator so I can only tell you what others have said and what we both probably read.
It sounds fine through out the entire life cycle at a micro dose.
Which you are doing.
Put it in first then the rest in order.
Very last set your ph to 5.8.
You should be ok.
How is the garden doing now?



Stay safe
Bill284

 

[AgedMaster]

Does Canna Coco nutrient contain calmag in them?

Hi bill canna coco A B contains 6.3% Ca 2.4% Mg I have 3 different country's nutes and there all the same. The spanish version has a picture of cannabis plants on the bottle I think its designed for cannabis they also say if your tap water is 0.4ec or more u won't need calmag

 

[Acid]

So first of all - Thanks a lot for the quick answers. I currently don't know what to do. It's been a few days now, and nothing has really changed at all. In fact, I feel like it's getting worse.. again. I've already removed tons of leaves that were just 100% dead, they were easily plucked just by pulling slightly on them. No resistance pretty much. All curled and twisted leaves, light brown, just fried. There isn't a healthy green anywhere anymore, it's all just a very light green with the leaves burning from the outside in. The smaller plant also gets worse again & I'm just all out of ideas.

And now even worse, my autoflower is suddenly starting to show similar symptoms out of nowhere, even though it's a completely different substrate (organic peat from biobizz with biobizz nutrients):

I'm slowly losing my mind here. I recently got 3 new seeds from a completely different breeder, should I just restart the coco grow with the upper two plants? Or should I first see what the actual problem is? I tried everything now, from flushing the whole substrate with PH corrected water, then re-feeding them with 1.6EC and 5.8PH with basic A+B nutrients and some epsom salts to push the magnesium a bit up, I then thought there's some new growth, but that new growth is now just.. dying too. Slowly, but surely.

I'm clueless. And so was my friend with a few good grows, same tapwater, same environment. Nothing helped yet. Not even changing from organic PH down to chemical PH down with my coco grow, not the flushing, they just get worse again.

 

[bluter]

So first of all - Thanks a lot for the quick answers. I currently don't know what to do. It's been a few days now, and nothing has really changed at all. In fact, I feel like it's getting worse.. again. I've already removed tons of leaves that were just 100% dead, they were easily plucked just by pulling slightly on them. No resistance pretty much. All curled and twisted leaves, light brown, just fried. There isn't a healthy green anywhere anymore, it's all just a very light green with the leaves burning from the outside in. The smaller plant also gets worse again & I'm just all out of ideas.

And now even worse, my autoflower is suddenly starting to show similar symptoms out of nowhere, even though it's a completely different substrate (organic peat from biobizz with biobizz nutrients):

I'm slowly losing my mind here. I recently got 3 new seeds from a completely different breeder, should I just restart the coco grow with the upper two plants? Or should I first see what the actual problem is? I tried everything now, from flushing the whole substrate with PH corrected water, then re-feeding them with 1.6EC and 5.8PH with basic A+B nutrients and some epsom salts to push the magnesium a bit up, I then thought there's some new growth, but that new growth is now just.. dying too. Slowly, but surely.

I'm clueless. And so was my friend with a few good grows, same tapwater, same environment. Nothing helped yet. Not even changing from organic PH down to chemical PH down with my coco grow, not the flushing, they just get worse again.

go right back to basics, we can help you with that.

first establish a decent grow area with proper lighting, ventilation, circulation, humidity, and environment control.

next decide on a media and stick to it. then get a basic package of simple cannabis nutes to match the media. don't buy a 12 bottle system, just the basics and some calmag, use proper ph up and down, not a stupid organic fail product.

make sure you have a decent ph and ec meter.

take stock of where you are at right now and give us a run down. you've got feeding, media, and ph issues all piling up on each other at present.