Need help with defoliation

[Chrondocious]

this right here. too many folk on this board mistakenly believe propagating hermie plants is normal. it's pretty well always a sign of shit genetics.

too many are using selfed herm seed and claiming it's the same as a seed from a proper breeding technique, or a "natural" process. we're seeing problems occurring all the time now. it used to be rare. really rare.

Good beans are tested, stressed, tested and then tested again....before being released. At least they should be. Grown indoor outdoor, with light leaks, different light schedules, hydro and soil, etc.....hence the need for testers. I have some herm beans Im trying to sprout...but I would never give them to any body. Just more of an experiment for myself. I agree with you 100% I wont touch a well known breeders gear cuz Ive tested beans that came from said breeders stock. Basically dude used breeders gear to breed with, and the seeds I tested hermed bad. Aaaaand out of like 15, 15 were females. Not supposed to be. Just kinda fucky to me. Besides, somebody had said they had herm issues with the original breeders gear. Very hyped breeder IMO, but they have beautiful IG pics.

 

[bluter]

Good beans are tested, stressed, tested and then tested again....before being released. At least they should be. Grown indoor outdoor, with light leaks, different light schedules, hydro and soil, etc.....hence the need for testers. I have some herm beans Im trying to sprout...but I would never give them to any body. Just more of an experiment for myself. I agree with you 100% I wont touch a well known breeders gear cuz Ive tested beans that came from said breeders stock. Basically dude used breeders gear to breed with, and the seeds I tested hermed bad. Aaaaand out of like 15, 15 were females. Not supposed to be. Just kinda fucky to me. Besides, somebody had said they had herm issues with the original breeders gear. Very hyped breeder IMO, but they have beautiful IG pics.

local med community no longer even uses femmed seed as starting stock now. we used to have real good relationships with decent breeders but they won't release stuff to us anymore. since legal began everything has gotten terrible.

too many home idiots propagating shit hermie genetics and banging whatever together then claiming "new" strains, and tossing seed to other equally clueless.

i always see folk on forums claiming selfed herm seed is normal and genetically female. i pretty much block those idiots now.

 

[Keffka]

I do not agree with it being a successful method of reproduction. It is a bad trait that leads away from the successful evolution of a specie. If the plant continues to self-pollinate there is no introduction of new genetic traits being introduced into the specie by new genetic codes when two unique codes merge. Eventually the plant specie would no longer be able to adapt to change for starters.

Hermaphrodites happen in many, if not all, specie of plant or animal. It is not a disaster to a specie since there is a level of adaptability already in the genetic code. But in the long run it is a dead end if all reproduction is self fertilization.

Same with any other specie if the only method of propagation is cloning.

While this is a fair counterpoint I don’t agree with it. For starters, whether or not it ends in destruction is irrelevant to the point that herming is in fact incredibly successful at reproducing. This is why so many plants/species have it and why it still exists, because it’s straight up successful at reproduction.

Long term evolutionary wise, many species are extremely successful at reproduction without selfing, yet they turn into crabs. Talk about an evolutionary dead end. While a singular method of reproduction in any species isn’t great for the species itself, it doesn’t make it unsuccessful. The plants aren’t here for our amusement, they’re here to survive, like the rest of us, terpenes and trichomes be damned. Herming ensures that survival until everything can eventually become crabs.

On a slightly more serious note in direct relevance to cannabis. Sort of a question/situation proposal: Say you have a field of cannabis where hermaphrodites are common. Self pollination isn’t going to be the only pollination that occurs correct? There will still be pollen crossing and gene sharing amongst that group since hermaphrodites can throw pollen, or say the wind blows the plants hard enough they rub against each other spreading pollen. Is that a correct assumption?

In my experience, hermaphrodites can still throw pollen a decent distance, especially if the wind catches it or an animal/pest carries it.

 

[bluter]

On a slightly more serious note in direct relevance to cannabis. Sort of a question/situation proposal: Say you have a field of cannabis where hermaphrodites are common. Self pollination isn’t going to be the only pollination that occurs correct? There will still be pollen crossing and gene sharing amongst that group since hermaphrodites can throw pollen, or say the wind blows the plants hard enough they rub against each other spreading pollen. Is that a correct assumption?

it depends on shear numbers. thai weed is often the most used example. even wild versions have a tendency to herm. more so than most any other landrace.

when looking at it genetically it is an extremely inbred sativa. it suggests either human intervention from an early time, or other means of culling or limiting the presence of males. over time a minority of herm plants became the predominant means of the plant reproducing, enforcing the trait as it became landrace.

it doesn't mean all wild thai will be hermie, just that it is a predominant trait. it means in the wild, there is now a more likely chance that a plant will be pollinated by a herm, than by a male.

when following genes you initially get female - herm - male outcomes with herm pollen. in time you get herm - female - male outcomes as the ratio of males drop. then you get herm -female, then herm.

some modern breeding and seed making techniques speed the process up or bring out the trait out unintentionally. home breeding and the use of selfed seed creates deeper problems. other issues happen around home growing and unintentional pollination from commercial hemp crops.

all of it weakens the cannabis gene pool we want to protect ...

In my experience, hermaphrodites can still throw pollen a decent distance, especially if the wind catches it or an animal/pest carries it.

one bad outdoor grown by a neighbour can screw over several blocks worth of grows. it can also affect indoor a bit closer.

 

[Chrondocious]

Pollen is pollen. Kinda what my experiment is. Im taking the seeds made from the herm. Pollen, but it wasnt selfed, it was her sister who didnt herm. Want to see if some, or all herm. I will kill off any plant as soon as it shows male parts, in case anybody else is growing outside in the area.

 

[Sativa1970]

All strains carry the recessive herm trait in there DNA. Before feminized breeding and hybridization it was vary rare to get a 1/4oz without a seed. The plants only goal is to reproduce, carrying on it's genetics by any means necessary. If stressed the plant will revert to it's recessive survival plan of self pollenating.

Feminization is forcing a female plant to produce pollen sacks. These sacks on a genetic female plant (XX) should only create female pollen(XX) so they should not create male(XY) seeds. Hermaphrodites have XX and recessive XY like there ancestors did. Several generations of feminizing will dilute the natural herm Y but never remove it. If a hermaphrodites XX XY pollen fertilizes a female plants xx then the most likely outcome will be xx with a less recessive Y waiting to be activated. There is the possibility that any of its' seed could be XY male or XX XY herm because the Y is no longer suppressed in the genetics again.

If you want your female plant to produce feminized seeds colloidal silver is simple to make and easy to use. This only makes feminized seeds from a fully female plant, not a herm. Clone your mother plant. If the mother plant has no bananas or seeds the clone will be full female. You can get feminized seeds with the herm trait dormant.

 

[bluter]

If you want your female plant to produce feminized seeds colloidal silver is simple to make and easy to use. This only makes feminized seeds from a fully female plant, not a herm. Clone your mother plant. If the mother plant has no bananas or seeds the clone will be full female. You can get feminized seeds with the herm trait dormant.

every homeboy cannacowboy is confusing that process with hermie seed. including a majority on this board.

it also isn't used to self the plant the pollen is collected from. the pollen is used on a separate pheno.

 

[bluter]

Pollen is pollen.

not that simple.

Kinda what my experiment is. Im taking the seeds made from the herm.

which means they are predisposed to be herm.

Pollen, but it wasnt selfed, it was her sister who didnt herm. Want to see if some, or all herm. I will kill off any plant as soon as it shows male parts, in case anybody else is growing outside in the area.

if you start with junk you are more likely to end there. most times you don't catch it til too late.

if you wanna do it, do it. i know growers who grow nothing but herm plants now. you can't bring anything in from them, or give anything to them, without it getting or being fucked over.

but they got seeds man.

 

[Chrondocious]

every homeboy cannacowboy is confusing that process with hermie seed. including a majority on this board.

it also isn't used to self the plant the pollen is collected from. the pollen is used on a separate pheno.

Not true. S1 is self pollinated. But true about the herm/fem pollination. Ive had some fiiiiirrrre fems. Never even a late nanner.

 

[Sativa1970]

every homeboy cannacowboy is confusing that process with hermie seed. including a majority on this board.

it also isn't used to self the plant the pollen is collected from. the pollen is used on a separate pheno.

That was the point. clarifying the difference between herm and fem seeding.

wild bread plant or herm seeding-
Pollen from herm/wild caries all combinations, X fem or Y male or XY herm. The receiving flower is always only X. You have 33% chance for each sex. 1 or 100 bananas, it's still a genetic herm.

Plants bread for no herm seeding-
We selectively bread for recessive herms Y chromosome. Plants have 33% chance female, 33% male and 33% herm that produces no pollen sacks so appears as standard female. Stress will bring out it's herm traits.

Feminized and bread for no herm seeding-
Produced feminized pollen caries no dominant Y chromosomes, only X and selected XY. So near 100% female or female characteristic herm.


The plant can self pollinate using either method and the result will be seeds with no other genetics or chromosome type manipulation added. So if you want a twin of the plant in seed form you self pollinate to preserve genetics. Want new characteristics? Cross with new phenome. Cross pollinate over genomes to start a new strain. Self pollinating has nothing to do with sex of the seeds. It's all in the pollen.

Herm is the norm for most plants, not just cannabis, in nature. The more diverse the two parents genetics are, the more seeds they will produced and have wider variety of genetics. herm goal is to pollinate there neighbor. If you only get only a couple apples on a tree, it self pollinated. Full of apples it cross pollinated with same strain. Breaking branches cause loaded with apples it crossed with a different strain. fruit won't change but the seed will be a genetic hybrid. Why we only grow apple tree clones. Finding that one self pollinated nonmale apple is near impossible.

 

[bluter]

seeds grown from a herm plant only reinforces the trait. i don't like growing out shitty genetics. a plant that herms voluntary is not the same as one forced into femming seed. the one that volunteers is expressing a weak genetic trait.

a herm that started as fem seed will be pre-disposed to make herms first and foremost. most will be genetically female, and a majority may not go full herm, but they will have the trait far stronger than seed produced proper.

breeders make femmed seed from stable regs. they don't start with femmed seed. seeds from a femmed plant that selfs is not an S1. those come from regs if you have a proper breeder.

 

[Sativa1970]

breeders make femmed seed from stable regs. they don't start with femmed seed. seeds from a femmed plant that selfs is not an S1. those come from regs if you have a proper breeder.

I get them flipped around in my head too. F1 is the only type of breading that won't use fems so self pollinating through stress herm is F1 technically,,, maybe,,, sort of. A fem that self pollinates through reversion by definition is an S1.. Bold letters were how I finally remembered it.

F1 is First gen of 2 strains no chromosome selection
R1 is the same as F1 but it uses Reversion feminized pollen crossing 2 strains. Selected X chromosome recessive XY.
S1 is reversion feminization, Self pollinating to Stabilize the genetics and phenome of a single strain. Selected X chromosome recessive XY.

a herm that started as fem seed will be pre-disposed to make herms first and foremost.

Females do not turn herm they were already herm but never expressed that trait. Just good at makeup and tucking to pass as female. herm is a recessive trait naturally in these plants. No matter which of the three sexes the parents are, the odds of a herm seed is always between 1% and 33%. Never more, never less. You can only selective bread to be closer to 1% or 33% chance of expression not chromosomes. A biological herm will not normally express the male traits unless stressed to it's breaking point. Crossing 2 herms will stabilize that breaking point. Saying herms are pre- disposed to have herm seeds is biologically flawed.

 

[bluter]

Saying herms are pre- disposed to have herm seeds is biologically flawed.

nope. herms in the wild occur at no more than 2 - 5% of the population.

there are some exceptions such as thai, but it looks to have early human intervention explaining the statistical difference.

herms occur in commercial seed as high as 35%. start bad end bad.

edit : 90% of what you are saying i can get behind. it's the final 10% that everyone screws up on. i didn't know anything about this until i got involved with med breeders. that changed everything. they are super concerned for the future of the plant and rightly so.

more edit : to be certain when i grew regs in the late 70's through the late 90's no one talked about herms. it really didn't happen, but we grew stable regs only. it's only recent. there's reasons for it. same reasons we have no professional growers on this board.

 

[Chrondocious]

nope. herms in the wild occur at no more than 2 - 5% of the population.

there are some exceptions such as thai, but it looks to have early human intervention explaining the statistical difference.

herms occur in commercial seed as high as 35%. start bad end bad.

edit : 90% of what you are saying i can get behind. it's the final 10% that everyone screws up on. i didn't know anything about this until i got involved with med breeders. that changed everything. they are super concerned for the future of the plant and rightly so.

more edit : to be certain when i grew regs in the late 70's through the late 90's no one talked about herms. it really didn't happen, but we grew stable regs only. it's only recent. there's reasons for it. same reasons we have no professional growers on this board.

I think there are plenty of professional growers on here. What makes someone a professional? A degree? Lol If I had access to 100000sq ft, I could rock that shit. There's some sick experienced growers on here IMO.

 

[bluter]

I think there are plenty of professional growers on here. What makes someone a professional? A degree? Lol If I had access to 100000sq ft, I could rock that shit. There's some sick experienced growers on here IMO.

i should probably have made the distinction between professional and commercial. there are definitely folk i'd call professional on here, even if they aren't monetized or grow in a home setting.

i do notice we don't retain too many legacy growers for very long, and those involved in the commercial side have a tendency to be newer folk here looking for pointers on getting started. once established they disappear.

there's a definite lack of anyone here who makes a living at this. once they start they no longer participate. even those deep into med side seem to get chased away.

 

[Sativa1970]

I think the lack of professional growers is because the questions get repetitive. As a kid our house was on the state garden tour and mom was a certified master gardener as a hobby, not her career. She enjoyed talking to strangers in the garden and would gladly answer any question. The whole, "there is no stupid question" attitude. And no, that attitude only applied to gardening questions.

On the other hand my best friends parents and two aunts worked for Monsanto AG. It felt like when they answered my questions they were doing it because they had to, not because they enjoyed discussing the topic. There hydroponic grow rooms in the basements were just another necessary chore. Still remember the audible groan when I asked how exactly hydro worked. Apparently I wasn't that annoying cause the aunt had no issue with me marrying her daughter.

I got the school but a different career. The old saying. Never make your hobby a career cause you will have nothing to enjoy in your off time.

 

[SmokingWings]

I think the lack of professional growers is because the questions get repetitive.

Yes, hit the nail.... Not only are the same questions being asked but the question itself is basic.

How about the times we see posts where there is a famous basic question followed by "I looked all over the internet and found nothing."

 

[SmokingWings]

there's a definite lack of anyone here who makes a living at this. once they start they no longer participate. even those deep into med side seem to get chased away.

The same questions time after time as Sativa1970 mentions but if they are making a living at growing or even subsidizing their full time job in an entirely different field they are the ones who realize that "time is money" and it is their time that is spent on the answer.

 

[Chrondocious]

TEll me how to grow my weeds.

 

[Beginner86]

start the 3rd flower week tomorow (sunday) today it‘s give‘s 5L rain water for each pot… i don‘t know how much is good for 30l pot size… the mars hydro tsl2000 running by 40% arround 135W