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PH rises and falls

West Hippie

Grow Journal of the Month: June 2020
My pleasure mate.
:48:
Crack into some G13 Haze.....
I like that you had a diary, proof, fact from solid info and you know your right based on that.
White Widow mama and I just finished
The only time I saw the ph fall Grandpa Tokin saved me with the chart CO2 saturation. I was running 1475 ppm and it saturated the reservoir. Other than that it’s all Rising!
Thanks again LowRider
 

Barney86

Well-Known Member
Again, if pH is always meant to rise then why do they make ph up?
Don't be so daft mate.
That is bollocks mate. Im going to back West Hippie on this.

1. PH should ALWAYS rise in any medium. If PH falls you have problems.
ppm can fall the two are related but dont react together.

2.PK boosters are to supply plants with more PK...not to correct ph...the best ph for PK uptake just happens to be 6.5.
PK to trigger flowering, then to finish at end, different ratios though.

3.PH wants to be swinging up in flower, from 5.5 to 6.5, feeding a full range... 6 to 6.5 minimum....if not is why you need additives, to compensate in some cases for ranges that are fed more in lower ph.

Just my opinion, based on fact.
Have you ever actually grown in a reservoir mate? If you haven't then you can't possibly understand any of this as you'll never have been able to see the pH and ppm shift in a precisely accurate digital readout.
I'm guessing from the head in the sand response that you haven't.
What your saying is that during bloom you should be having to pH down the media every day as it'll be going to high. We're all in agreement that around 6.5 is where you go in so why on earth would the pH be supposed to rise and take you out of range? Can you not see why that makes absolutely no logical sense?
We go in at the low end of 5.7ish during veg because the pH will naturally rise then in at 6.5ish for bloom because it will naturally drop.
This is like absolute basic growing 101, how come none of you can wrap your heads round this?
 

Barney86

Well-Known Member
my nutes do. it says in the instructions on the webpage.

barney86 knows his stuff
Finally some back up lol. Cheers man haha. Its 6am, I'm rough as toast, stoned out my chops already cos been up from 4 and gotta leave for work in an hour to go tear a building down. The impending sense of doom is gaining momentum like. Think today might break me already :(
 

Hdinkleman

Well-Known Member
Are you saying youre pumping co2 into the reservoir?
Not air from an airpump but co2 from a canister?

Finally some back up lol. Cheers man haha. Its 6am, I'm rough as toast, stoned out my chops already cos been up from 4 and gotta leave for work in an hour to go tear a building down. The impending sense of doom is gaining momentum like. Think today might break me already :(

yup its in the canna site on what to ph for
and i also notice when i use tap water directly out of my tap and mix the majority of the nutes it will bring my water right to a few points of the reccomended.

during veg 5.8
during late veg it goes up to 5.9
then flowering it is 6.0
mid -6.1
late 6.2

i followed this exactly in my last journal using canna terra and cocopeat and the plants are my first real no problem grow.
i added nothing just followed that ph guideline with their nutes
 

No Pain

Well-Known Member
I use a bluelab guardian and monitor my system 24/7

in my experience ph rises and falls along with solution strength it depends on what the plants are feeling off of and its abundance in the solution. in my system I have had days that are a natural drift up and down between 5.3 and 6.0 and at times its a rock solid 5,8 for days (usually after a res change). all hydro systems are different in regards to the strength that you need ...my plants show signs of overfertilization (burnt tips and edges)around 600 ppm on a 500 scale and right now im running 350 ppm in the 5th week of flower ! how can it be that low you ask , well its all in the root zone, its development and the dissolved oxygen in the system .
I redesigned my air system and dealt with mad fluctuations in ph until I dialed in the feed.

in any hydro system a constant drift to below 5 indicates a root issue imho ...I have gotten to the point where I just watch the drift . One other thing to remember is the ph of the solution isn't necessarily the ph inside the root zone in hydro. also NEVER add up or down directly to the res in a recirculating system ...pre mix it with solution or water then add it slowly .

in doing hydro you need a chiller for the solution if you don't use one you are just asking for problems . as a chiller not only aids in keeping bacteria at bay it also aids in keeping a consistent amount of dissolved oxygen in the system and the dissolved oxygen is what regulates the efficiency at which your plants can take up food. so if you don't have consistent temps in your solution you will never be able to truly dial in your feed strength ..imho

in any medium the power of the plant is in the root zone ...if you put your focus there to make it as best as you possibly can you will have good results ….. for soil that's what Doc is doing with his highbrix soil .
 

Barney86

Well-Known Member
I use a bluelab guardian and monitor my system 24/7

in my experience ph rises and falls along with solution strength it depends on what the plants are feeling off of and its abundance in the solution. in my system I have had days that are a natural drift up and down between 5.3 and 6.0 and at times its a rock solid 5,8 for days (usually after a res change). all hydro systems are different in regards to the strength that you need ...my plants show signs of overfertilization (burnt tips and edges)around 600 ppm on a 500 scale and right now im running 350 ppm in the 5th week of flower ! how can it be that low you ask , well its all in the root zone, its development and the dissolved oxygen in the system .
I redesigned my air system and dealt with mad fluctuations in ph until I dialed in the feed.

in any hydro system a constant drift to below 5 indicates a root issue imho ...I have gotten to the point where I just watch the drift . One other thing to remember is the ph of the solution isn't necessarily the ph inside the root zone in hydro. also NEVER add up or down directly to the res in a recirculating system ...pre mix it with solution or water then add it slowly .

in doing hydro you need a chiller for the solution if you don't use one you are just asking for problems . as a chiller not only aids in keeping bacteria at bay it also aids in keeping a consistent amount of dissolved oxygen in the system and the dissolved oxygen is what regulates the efficiency at which your plants can take up food. so if you don't have consistent temps in your solution you will never be able to truly dial in your feed strength ..imho

in any medium the power of the plant is in the root zone ...if you put your focus there to make it as best as you possibly can you will have good results ….. for soil that's what Doc is doing with his highbrix soil .
Yeah that's how my plants feed too mate. Current lot are just about to go into bloom and only on 300ppm. Those in mid bloom are on 550 and won't go any higher. Feed my Coco plants from the same res too.
 

Lowrider72

Well-Known Member
Again, if pH is always meant to rise then why do they make ph up?
Don't be so daft mate.

Have you ever actually grown in a reservoir mate? If you haven't then you can't possibly understand any of this as you'll never have been able to see the pH and ppm shift in a precisely accurate digital readout.
I'm guessing from the head in the sand response that you haven't.
What your saying is that during bloom you should be having to pH down the media every day as it'll be going to high. We're all in agreement that around 6.5 is where you go in so why on earth would the pH be supposed to rise and take you out of range? Can you not see why that makes absolutely no logical sense?
We go in at the low end of 5.7ish during veg because the pH will naturally rise then in at 6.5ish for bloom because it will naturally drop.
This is like absolute basic growing 101, how come none of you can wrap your heads round this?
Im not daft, but you sure talk shit.
Im not impressed mate.
I grown with some of the best, better than you.
You drift ph up to take advantage of different things you want to uptake...
some available more at low ph.... Some higher. Notice some stuff like Manganese and Iron uptake better at lower ph, you need these in flower too.

General rule ...feed low, ph rises, re feed, lower ph....rinse, repeat.
Read this chart below... Live it... 101...

Yeah that's how my plants feed too mate. Current lot are just about to go into bloom and only on 300ppm. Those in mid bloom are on 550 and won't go any higher. Feed my Coco plants from the same res too.
Did you even read no pains post? Or just that bit.
Drop in ph indicates a prob in rootzone, which can also indicate feeding problem.

WP_20190603_15_42_42_Pro.jpg

That chart is all any noob ever needs to know about ph.
If you feed at 6.5 all the time...you have nowhere to go with natural drift up.. Resulting in being out of range, making plants not feed properly in phosporus, iron , manganese, boron, copper and zinc....and thats just in a PH swing of 2.
 
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West Hippie

Grow Journal of the Month: June 2020
I use a bluelab guardian and monitor my system 24/7

in my experience ph rises and falls along with solution strength it depends on what the plants are feeling off of and its abundance in the solution. in my system I have had days that are a natural drift up and down between 5.3 and 6.0 and at times its a rock solid 5,8 for days (usually after a res change). all hydro systems are different in regards to the strength that you need ...my plants show signs of overfertilization (burnt tips and edges)around 600 ppm on a 500 scale and right now im running 350 ppm in the 5th week of flower ! how can it be that low you ask , well its all in the root zone, its development and the dissolved oxygen in the system .
I redesigned my air system and dealt with mad fluctuations in ph until I dialed in the feed.

in any hydro system a constant drift to below 5 indicates a root issue imho ...I have gotten to the point where I just watch the drift . One other thing to remember is the ph of the solution isn't necessarily the ph inside the root zone in hydro. also NEVER add up or down directly to the res in a recirculating system ...pre mix it with solution or water then add it slowly .

in doing hydro you need a chiller for the solution if you don't use one you are just asking for problems . as a chiller not only aids in keeping bacteria at bay it also aids in keeping a consistent amount of dissolved oxygen in the system and the dissolved oxygen is what regulates the efficiency at which your plants can take up food. so if you don't have consistent temps in your solution you will never be able to truly dial in your feed strength ..imho

in any medium the power of the plant is in the root zone ...if you put your focus there to make it as best as you possibly can you will have good results ….. for soil that's what Doc is doing with his highbrix soil .
Thanks NoPain that’s everything on Chris charts up for the hydro . Nice wright up !
Im not daft, but you sure talk shit.
Im not impressed mate.
I grown with some of the best, better than you.
You drift ph up to take advantage of different things you want to uptake...
some available more at low ph.... Some higher. Notice some stuff like Manganese and Iron uptake better at lower ph, you need these in flower too.

General rule ...feed low, ph rises, re feed, lower ph....rinse, repeat.
Read this chart below... Live it... 101...


Did you even read no pains post? Or just that bit.
Drop in ph indicates a prob in rootzone, which can also indicate feeding problem.

WP_20190603_15_42_42_Pro.jpg

That chart is all any noob ever needs to know about ph.
If you feed at 6.5 all the time...you have nowhere to go with natural drift up.. Resulting in being out of range, making plants not feed properly in phosporus, iron , manganese, boron, copper and zinc....and thats just in a PH swing of 2.
Wow he still doesn’t get it , sorry to get you in this . I was just ignoring him !
 
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Barney86

Well-Known Member
Im not daft, but you sure talk shit.
Im not impressed mate.
I grown with some of the best, better than you.
You drift ph up to take advantage of different things you want to uptake...
some available more at low ph.... Some higher. Notice some stuff like Manganese and Iron uptake better at lower ph, you need these in flower too.

General rule ...feed low, ph rises, re feed, lower ph....rinse, repeat.
Read this chart below... Live it... 101...


Did you even read no pains post? Or just that bit.
Drop in ph indicates a prob in rootzone, which can also indicate feeding problem.

WP_20190603_15_42_42_Pro.jpg

That chart is all any noob ever needs to know about ph.
If you feed at 6.5 all the time...you have nowhere to go with natural drift up.. Resulting in being out of range, making plants not feed properly in phosporus, iron , manganese, boron, copper and zinc....and thats just in a PH swing of 2.
Haha honestly mate you're completely missing my point. If you feed right when in bloom it doesn't drift up. It goes down. That's the one thing that magical chart makes absolutely no reference to. The fact that you need to change the pH through veg and bloom. The reason the pH swing reverses is to do with root secretions. As the plant transitions into bloom, the root secretions (on a healthy, properly fed, hydro plant) will change from alkaline to acidic. I'm assuming it's something to do with the plant absorbing less N and more PK but I've never looked into it tbh. Not usually that interested in the subject lol.
And you never answered my question. Do you grow in a reservoir? Cos once again, if you don't then you can't possibly know what someone who grows in one knows.
You can throw all the charts and other people's quotes at me all you want. If you can't see it yourself on a digital display right now then you can't possibly understand it. I think the term is "cognitive dissonance."

Those of us that use a reservoir know how this shit works. (Most of us anyway)
And seeing as you've turned it into a pissing contest, my profile pic is a 600g auto.. grown in a 4inch rockwool cube balanced very precariously on a shelf of fresh air..... And strangely enough was fed using my method.
I'll size off any indoor grower using my cheap shitty blurples mate. Only the sun that I can't compete with ;)
 
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West Hippie

Grow Journal of the Month: June 2020
I believe the other party and have found his ph problem. Nothing to do with with nutrients and ppm , but it is in a reply from another thread and ended in here because I brought it here ! I’ll never steer anyone in the wrong direction without something to prove it . This thread should have never gotten past the charts Chris put in here ! !
Same for soil recommend to ph at 6.3 to rise to 6.8 for all the nutrients intake !
Hydro my nutrients control my ph I don’t fight it , it comes in at 5.45-5.5 for the start and will only rise to the occasion 5.8-6.1 then it's ready for fresh water and nutrients.
I will post the progress of his correction of his ph in a few days . In the meantime find the post that I believe is going to fix it !
 

Barney86

Well-Known Member
I believe the other party and have found his ph problem. Nothing to do with with nutrients and ppm , but it is in a reply from another thread and ended in here because I brought it here ! I’ll never steer anyone in the wrong direction without something to prove it . This thread should have never gotten past the charts Chris put in here ! !
Same for soil recommend to ph at 6.3 to rise to 6.8 for all the nutrients intake !
Hydro my nutrients control my ph I don’t fight it , it comes in at 5.45-5.5 for the start and will only rise to the occasion 5.8-6.1 then it's ready for fresh water and nutrients.
I will post the progress of his correction of his ph in a few days . In the meantime find the post that I believe is going to fix it !
Huh? The question were talking about is how pH should behave in a hydro reservoir is it not?
Soil is cometely different and has absolutely no place in the conversation as it will only lead to further confusion..
 
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West Hippie

Grow Journal of the Month: June 2020
Dwc had the ph problems. Needed to know why his ph ran into the negative ! We actually kept looking Over the weekend to solve this problem. Time will tell as soon as he gets it changed out !
0996DA1C-37CF-46B1-8C11-5DA4842E8A67.jpeg
 

Barney86

Well-Known Member
yup its in the canna site on what to ph for
and i also notice when i use tap water directly out of my tap and mix the majority of the nutes it will bring my water right to a few points of the reccomended.

during veg 5.8
during late veg it goes up to 5.9
then flowering it is 6.0
mid -6.1
late 6.2

i followed this exactly in my last journal using canna terra and cocopeat and the plants are my first real no problem grow.
i added nothing just followed that ph guideline with their nutes
WHAT? !!
You raised the ph in bloom to almost 6.5
 

LiberalThinker

Well-Known Member
WHAT? !!
You raised the ph in bloom to almost 6.5
From what understand, holding a static pH figure will cause a deficiency somewhere, so starting at 5.5 and letting it ride naturally upto 6.2 allows the plant to have all the nutes at the optimum pH as it rises... then you drop it back down again. The other plus is you aren't adding more nutes than necessary from the pH adjusters.
 

No Pain

Well-Known Member
From what understand, holding a static pH figure will cause a deficiency somewhere, so starting at 5.5 and letting it ride naturally upto 6.2 allows the plant to have all the nutes at the optimum pH as it rises... then you drop it back down again. The other plus is you aren't adding more nutes than necessary from the pH adjusters.
in flower your ph will always drop prior to going up simply because of what the plant is absorbing for that stage of growth and releasing back into the solution . I would never recommend that anyone start out at 5.5 ….. anywhere from 5.8 to 6.3 is an acceptable starting point imho . Again just because your solution is at a specific number does not mean that's what it is inside the root zone and you cant really get a reading in the rood zone of an 8 gallon module that is full of matteted roots ..you know it looks like one huge dreadlock .
 

LiberalThinker

Well-Known Member
in flower your ph will always drop prior to going up simply because of what the plant is absorbing for that stage of growth and releasing back into the solution . I would never recommend that anyone start out at 5.5 ….. anywhere from 5.8 to 6.3 is an acceptable starting point imho . Again just because your solution is at a specific number does not mean that's what it is inside the root zone and you cant really get a reading in the rood zone of an 8 gallon module that is full of matteted roots ..you know it looks like one huge dreadlock .
You are entitled to your opinion. 5.5-6.2 is the useful hydroponic range. 5.8 is not the lowest desired number, its usually the target compromise number when one is aiming for a static figure.
 
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Barney86

Well-Known Member
From what understand, holding a static pH figure will cause a deficiency somewhere, so starting at 5.5 and letting it ride naturally upto 6.2 allows the plant to have all the nutes at the optimum pH as it rises... then you drop it back down again. The other plus is you aren't adding more nutes than necessary from the pH adjusters.
Sorry, I was being sarcastic there lol. Of course he started at close to 6.5 cos we all know ph should drop in bloom :)
 

No Pain

Well-Known Member
You are entitled to your opinion. 5.5-6.2 is the useful hydroponic range. 5.8 is not the lowest desired number, its usually the target compromise number when one is aiming for a static figure.
You are very correct in stating that "you are entitled to your opinion" as that goes along with free speech . Now I offer my opinion not through something that I have read or something that someone told but through experience . see the funny thing is when I started growing cannabis in hydroponics in the mid 90's the fuss about ph was keeping it around 6.3 the entire grow and there weren't any go to forum sites that offered opinions and insight and well the discussion has evolved along with ph Suggestions as well as the nutrients that are available and how they are chelated not to mention the types of hydroponic systems. I have used 4 different types one of which I built myself (high pressure aero).

so when I offer my opinion it is based on what I have seen over the decades and can be absorbed or cast aside its the readers choice and I don't have a problem with that . All I know is that I have offered them the best Opinion based on Knowledge that I can based on the years/decades that I have been toying with this .

one other thing that people need to consider hugely is the manufactures recommendation for ph on the product they are using as they made them and know how they are chelated and have designed them to work and it what kind of system.

might I ask how many grows you have completed starting off with a ph of 5.5? I feel its a fair question as you offer no insight as to why you feel that my Opinion is just an Opinion and has no factual data behind it . I state that because I have seen some of your posts and we have come across each other here and im sure we will continue to so and the way you quoted and responded is typical to wanting to end discussion on the topic because you have a different view (which is fine by me)but don't offer honest facts as to why its just someones opinion ...stating that starting at 5.8 because you are looking for a static ph is actually ridiculous and not factual . If you took the time to read all the posts you will see that I actually talk about fluctuation.

you as well as people that took the time to read this may be wondering why I wrote and said what I did , some may even feel that im coming down on you . That isn't the case at all .

The reason I wrote all of this is because information is dangerous. We all want to help one another but when we talk about only what we have read or heard and someone takes that as truth it can have a negative impact on them as well as those that that information was passed onto by them .

one example is someone stating you can grow a cannabis plant in a stagnant solution (without aeration) although it is true by 100% (Kratky method) a person taking that information and trying to grow a cannabis plant full term bearing good fruits will fail. Just because it is written doesn't mean that it is so or that it will work as it is written . everything is just a guide as no 2 grows are truly identical.

also know that I don't have to be right and im okay with being wrong ...if im not wrong im not learning anything and im not afraid to learn.
 
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