The Gee Spot - You Finally Found It

[Jon]

Ah, sorry I knew that. Sometimes I'm not very good at articulating my thought.

Thank you. This will differ with autos because we are on a clock and flower is typically 30ish days in.

I'm going to draw your attention @Jon . I usually aim to top at first sign of pistils, do you think a pre-emptive root drench would be right at this point, either before or after topping? Sorry I know you're still learning the ropes with organics, but you know the lifecycle of an autoflower well enough to judge I'd say.

I worry that I don't have the physical strength to do this. My cloth pots are 20 L and fully submerged in water they will be much heavier. I could probably lift them out in a hurry but then I'd end up with the violent runoff, and I know from previous experience, that compacts the soil.

Ok, makes sense. Thanks



Thanks Gee.

Hi @Carmen Ray, my apologies, I missed your question in this thread. I have root drench stuff and only used it a few times. I noticed no difference. However, that said, I have much more experience now and just a touch of minor knowledge about organics. So as you accurately noted, I honestly don’t feel qualified to answer the root drench question directly. However, I will comment in a part of what you said that stood out to me.

This: I usually aim to top at first sign of pistils,

Specifically and only with autos, in my opinion, this is way too late to top. Too late for the main and too late to top branches. The reason is, if you wait all the way until pistils, sure, it’ll work. They’ll split. But then there’s not nearly enough time left for them to develop any appreciable stem. It’s a guaranteed smaller buds thing. Now in your particular case as I understand it, you are way spatially compromised for growing weed. So in your situation, it may be that this allows you to control the size of the finished plant. Topping that late will certainly do that. If that’s your motivation, that’s perhaps different. I can see that working great for you although I’d argue there are more effective ways to do that.

I try to always get all topping (which for me is only the main one time) out of the way the moment it’s possible based on what node you’re choosing to use. I want as much time as possible between tipping and pistils. And if you top more than the main (ie, branches), to top branches late is completely counterproductive to nice buds. So idk.

Sorry that doesn’t help you with your root drench question. But at least it’s something. Lol!

 

[Carmen Ray]

When I say minerals I mean mineral dusts. I add green sand too but not much. Green sand is chunkier like rock phosphate so it takes longer, but SRP, guanos, glacial dusts, things like that break down fast as they are powdered already.

Meals are great if you still need proteins but if I need them I prefer them in teas so they won't hot compost with soil carbon. You can topdress meals too, just stop if it causes problems.

Once the plant finishes stretch it doesn't grow much but it requires a lot of minerals to photosynthesize enough to satisfy it's resin and terpene production.

Gee, when I asked my grow shop guy about adding anything to my soil for flower, he said I should add rock phosphate and guano as a top dress. If the rock phosphate is chunky and slow to break down, is this indeed advisable?

This is the range and I use the Organic Classic. It is revitalized with the Elemental Blend.

CRAFT SOIL | Freedom Farms

www.freedomfarms.co.za

Dirty Hands Inc Elemental Blend - Mineral & Nutrient Pack 10L - Hydroponic / Soil Growing medium

Shop now at Seeds For Africa for a massive range of Craft soils & Substrates. Dirty Hands Inc Elemental Blend - Mineral & Nutrient Pack 10L - Hydroponic / Soil Growing medium available in-stock and ready to ship! We are with you on your exciting growing journey!

www.seedsforafrica.co.za

 

[Gee64]

I have a maybe not so dumb guess! Maybe if it’s on top and mineral, the idea is an extra time released benefit as you water atop it over the course of the grow? Wouldn’t that make it available around flower time?

Yes, it's preventative medicine to stay ahead and the curve.

@Azimuth this is where brix excels.

Exudates, with myco's guidance , get placed by the roots. If they get placed on meals then the microbes eat meals today.

If they get placed on minerals then the microbes eat minerals today.

Exudate carbon won't mix with greens and compost. Sugar is a preservative. So a high brix plant is safer to add meals if you wish.

A low brix plant where there are no sugars will experience the microbes in the pot combining soil carbon and greens. Hot composting.

Make sense?

So in flower you need more minerals and the exudates with myco's guidance end up on minerals to create high mineral bug poop.

Meals are actually best in the form of EWC and top dressed.

I guess maybe I didn't mention that. Every time I top dress anything it gets EWC over it and then mixed in and watered in. EWC is meals already packaged.

 

[Azimuth]

On the now freshly overwatered plant ( ) I'm now getting calcium spots. When I watered yesterday I added directly to the reservoir and used a weak WCA. I've always associated the brown spots with a deficiency but in this case maybe it's an excess? Or a lockout issue...

I measured about a 6 a couple of inches down, and 9-10 4+ inches down. I'd expect it to work its way out in a couple of more days.

 

[Carmen Ray]

Hi @Carmen Ray, my apologies, I missed your question in this thread. I have root drench stuff and only used it a few times. I noticed no difference. However, that said, I have much more experience now and just a touch of minor knowledge about organics. So as you accurately noted, I honestly don’t feel qualified to answer the root drench question directly.

Ah ok thanks.

However, I will comment in a part of what you said that stood out to me.

This: I usually aim to top at first sign of pistils,

Specifically and only with autos, in my opinion, this is way too late to top. Too late for the main and too late to top branches. The reason is, if you wait all the way until pistils, sure, it’ll work. They’ll split. But then there’s not nearly enough time left for them to develop any appreciable stem. It’s a guaranteed smaller buds thing. Now in your particular case as I understand it, you are way spatially compromised for growing weed. So in your situation, it may be that this allows you to control the size of the finished plant. Topping that late will certainly do that. If that’s your motivation, that’s perhaps different. I can see that working great for you although I’d argue there are more effective ways to do that.

No I have been doing this because Boo does it! LOL! Ok now I thought that the whole point of topping when pistils show is to slow down flower but perhaps I have been under a misapprehension for some years lol. I have been frustrated that my plants seem never to stretch lol.... oh dear. Ok, so I may call on you for topping advice in a few weeks if that's ok?

I try to always get all topping (which for me is only the main one time) out of the way the moment it’s possible based on what node you’re choosing to use. I want as much time as possible between tipping and pistils. And if you top more than the main (ie, branches), to top branches late is completely counterproductive to nice buds. So idk.

Sorry that doesn’t help you with your root drench question. But at least it’s something. Lol!

Thanks!

 

[Gee64]

Gee, when I asked my grow shop guy about adding anything to my soil for flower, he said I should add rock phosphate and guano as a top dress. If the rock phosphate is chunky and slow to break down, is this indeed advisable?

This is the range and I use the Organic Classic. It is revitalized with the Elemental Blend.

CRAFT SOIL | Freedom Farms

www.freedomfarms.co.za

Dirty Hands Inc Elemental Blend - Mineral & Nutrient Pack 10L - Hydroponic / Soil Growing medium

Shop now at Seeds For Africa for a massive range of Craft soils & Substrates. Dirty Hands Inc Elemental Blend - Mineral & Nutrient Pack 10L - Hydroponic / Soil Growing medium available in-stock and ready to ship! We are with you on your exciting growing journey!

www.seedsforafrica.co.za

There is rock phosphate, which is a rock, and soft rock phosphate, which is powdered rock phosphate.

That is likely what he meant. Soft Rock Phosphate, AKA SRP, is wicked good stuff but better served in the global mix.

The reason is, too much P that easily available makes myco less effective. So if you use it as a top dressing, and I do, use it sparingly.

Like I said earlier, my mineral dressing mix is the same as the soil recipe. It is also ratioed like the soil recipe.

I only use about 1/4 to 1/3 cup SRP in 20 gallons of mix, so in a top dress it is the smallest additive too.

Most commercial cannabis top dressings are really good. Minerals are cheap. If in doubt buy a bag and try.

Right now I'm using a fertilizer called Gaia Green Power Bloom as a topdress. Google it and you will find a list of ingredients.

It's the same fertilizer I built the current mix with at the same rate the mix calls for divided by 4 to get a weekly amount to top dress.

When I use Bluesky Supersoil I use Bluesky topdressing. It's my favorite top dressing from a commercial point of view. I save it for gentler sativas grown in Bluesky Supersoil. It's labelled Organic Reactor.

Here is whats in it.

Ok bone meal... When I say meals I mean blood meal and green meals. Technically bone meal is a meal but it's a mineral meal not a plant meal. I like bone meal. I use it as a mineral.

@Azimuth does that description of my outlook on bone meal help you? I consider it a mineral.

 

[Gee64]

Gee, when I asked my grow shop guy about adding anything to my soil for flower, he said I should add rock phosphate and guano as a top dress. If the rock phosphate is chunky and slow to break down, is this indeed advisable?

This is the range and I use the Organic Classic. It is revitalized with the Elemental Blend.

CRAFT SOIL | Freedom Farms

www.freedomfarms.co.za

Dirty Hands Inc Elemental Blend - Mineral & Nutrient Pack 10L - Hydroponic / Soil Growing medium

Shop now at Seeds For Africa for a massive range of Craft soils & Substrates. Dirty Hands Inc Elemental Blend - Mineral & Nutrient Pack 10L - Hydroponic / Soil Growing medium available in-stock and ready to ship! We are with you on your exciting growing journey!

www.seedsforafrica.co.za

The Organic Classic sounds like a great blend. I wouldn't hesitate to use it. The following is from the description.

It is what you need to defend against. 6 weeks in it runs out.

" The nutrients in the soil should be adequate for approximately 2-6 weeks before additional nutrient applications are required."

Cooking in the Elemental Blend at the rate for rebuilding soil would work beautifully with this soil. It's very similar to what I am doing with the Gaia Green Mix except you are starting with a better soil to put the elemental blend in.

I would add at least a half cup of dolomite to a 10gal bag, but really, if you can find out how well it's buffered with calcium and what kind, you could dial it in.

I chose the soil I started with because it has no added calcium.

Try it without adding any dolomite, and if a calcium issue comes up, dolomite water stops it quick, you just need to use it on a schedule until harvest is all.

I would throw the calcium in anyways, but I am reckless because I always have plants growing and always have a pound or 2 of weed jarred up.

Also you are growing autos and I have no idea how they grow.

I say use the 2 products and have some prilled dolomite on hand, or calmag, in case you need it.

I bet it works darn good. If it runs out, mix it stronger next grow like I had to do when RV1 got too big and drained the Gaia 1.0 mix.

 

[Gee64]

TMSC - Day 53 of Flower.

Icky is finishing beautifully. She was only a little too much for the Gaia 1.0 mix. A 10gal would have been enough, this 7gal wasn't quite enough, but she is senescing now, so she made it.

Like my regular Durban Poison, Icky has no crazy colors when finishing, just that faded yellow look. I'm good with that

Her colas are plumping nicely.
She isn't solid nugs, but she is very thick for a fluffier flower type sativa. Her hairs are thick and long.

Mutey. She's scarred but also starting to finish. Not as early as Icky but starting now.

Her top.

One of her only side branches. There are 3 or 4 and only about a foot long coming out from down low.

Here is the underneath on the main stems. It's like one giant cola.

So much to trim in there

 

[Gee64]

TMSC RVDV clones - Day 5 of Flower.

#1. Today is 8 weeks since I cut these clones.

#3.

#2 in the veg tent still.

#4 still in the veg tent too.

And day 57 of 60. Almost there.

 

[Keffka]

4 foot colas are a little obnoxious

I’m about to bend everything in half, it’s gonna suck

Scratch that, glad I didn’t spike it, that’s the 10 I just top dressed some gypsum, all purpose and kelp meal

 

[Gee64]

4 foot colas are a little obnoxious

I’m about to bend everything in half, it’s gonna suck

Beauty Keff! Those are leggy ladies.
You know I got a weakness for tall chicks.

Your leaves are awesome solar panels. They should flower really well!

Thats a cool pic, thanks for sharing it

How did the chiropractics go? They all twisted over now?

 

[Jon]

Ah ok thanks.

No I have been doing this because Boo does it! LOL! Ok now I thought that the whole point of topping when pistils show is to slow down flower but perhaps I have been under a misapprehension for some years lol. I have been frustrated that my plants seem never to stretch lol.... oh dear. Ok, so I may call on you for topping advice in a few weeks if that's ok?

Thanks!

Sure Carmen, of course. I’ll share what I got.

But yes, that would explain why your plants aren’t stretching as you like. When you top late, you are essentially topping closer to when the plant is finished its vertical growth. Or closer to when it starts to stretch. At the end of the stretch they are *basically* done the majority of their vertical growth. Also when you top, at that point where you topped, you are basically interrupting the the plants growth. You’re in effect putting the brakes on. Not because of plants recovery time, if you use clean scissors and don’t take too much at once there should be basically no recovery time. The brakes on your stretch happen cuz you have topped and then the plant goes right into its stretch. So it is trying to push out new growth two directions starting from zero from any topping, while stretching at the same time. As a result, the plant in effect uses its whole stretch just to get back to where it was before you topped, versus putting all that growth to going straight up into a branch that was topped a lot earlier and already has some stem established before the stretch. In short, topping late will minimize the stretch almost without fail. I hope that made sense, lol.

Hope that helps!

 

[Carmen Ray]

Thank you Gee.

That is likely what he meant. Soft Rock Phosphate, AKA SRP, is wicked good stuff but better served in the global mix.

It is already in the global mix but he said it would need more for flower.

The reason is, too much P that easily available makes myco less effective. So if you use it as a top dressing, and I do, use it sparingly.

Like I said earlier, my mineral dressing mix is the same as the soil recipe. It is also ratioed like the soil recipe.

This worries me. It sounds risky unless you know what you're doing.

Most commercial cannabis top dressings are really good. Minerals are cheap. If in doubt buy a bag and try.

I don't know of any locally. I've been searching. There are these two possibilities but I don't know whether the NPK ratios are right.

Vita Fruit and Flower 3:1:5(18) - Talborne Organics

Switch to Urban Tap to select the previous period Next Vita Fruit & Flower 3:1:5 (18) Higher Potassium ratio to Nitrogen promotes flowers, fruits, and seed formation in crops. Potassium strengthens cell walls to improve resilience to pest and disease and stressful climatic conditions...

talborne.co.za

Green House Powder Feeding - BioBloom

Green House Powder Feeding Biofeed range is a 100% biological blend of natural minerals and organic nutrients which provide all the essential macro and micronutrients and promotes the microbial life in the soil, helping to establish a healthy soil food web for your plants. BioBloom (N-P-K...

growguru.co.za

It's the same fertilizer I built the current mix with at the same rate the mix calls for divided by 4 to get a weekly amount to top dress.

Are you saying that you recommend a top dress once a week?

I would add at least a half cup of dolomite to a 10gal bag, but really, if you can find out how well it's buffered with calcium and what kind, you could dial it in.

I could email the company that makes it but I don't know what questions to ask.

I chose the soil I started with because it has no added calcium.

Try it without adding any dolomite, and if a calcium issue comes up, dolomite water stops it quick, you just need to use it on a schedule until harvest is all.

I made a water soluble calcium solution from egg shells and cuttlefish that I will try, otherwise I have some bottled calmag.

 

[Carmen Ray]

Sure Carmen, of course. I’ll share what I got.

But yes, that would explain why your plants aren’t stretching as you like. When you top late, you are essentially topping closer to when the plant is finished its vertical growth. Or closer to when it starts to stretch. At the end of the stretch they are *basically* done the majority of their vertical growth. Also when you top, at that point where you topped, you are basically interrupting the the plants growth. You’re in effect putting the brakes on. Not because of plants recovery time, if you use clean scissors and don’t take too much at once there should be basically no recovery time. The brakes on your stretch happen cuz you have topped and then the plant goes right into its stretch. So it is trying to push out new growth two directions starting from zero from any topping, while stretching at the same time. As a result, the plant in effect uses its whole stretch just to get back to where it was before you topped, versus putting all that growth to going straight up into a branch that was topped a lot earlier and already has some stem established before the stretch. In short, topping late will minimize the stretch almost without fail. I hope that made sense, lol.

Hope that helps!

Thanks, this sounds right!

 

[Jon]

Yes, it's preventative medicine to stay ahead and the curve.

@Azimuth this is where brix excels.

Exudates, with myco's guidance , get placed by the roots. If they get placed on meals then the microbes eat meals today.

If they get placed on minerals then the microbes eat minerals today.

Exudate carbon won't mix with greens and compost. Sugar is a preservative. So a high brix plant is safer to add meals if you wish.

A low brix plant where there are no sugars will experience the microbes in the pot combining soil carbon and greens. Hot composting.

Make sense?

So in flower you need more minerals and the exudates with myco's guidance end up on minerals to create high mineral bug poop.

Meals are actually best in the form of EWC and top dressed.

I guess maybe I didn't mention that. Every time I top dress anything it gets EWC over it and then mixed in and watered in. EWC is meals already packaged.

Do you top dress EWC by itself in between or only when you top dress the other stuff? I’ve been using it around every third or fourth watering.

 

[Jon]

Another question please:

This - Try it without adding any dolomite, and if a calcium issue comes up, dolomite water stops it quick,

Dolomite water sounds almost as easy as calmag, I bet even I can make that, lol. I have only had to use chem calmag one time, but in my semi organic reality for now, I’m not abhorrent to a calmag save if I feel I have no other option for a fast fix. I learned form here and from that one time I used it that in organics, a chem calmag hit does indeed act very quickly. So my question is, you say dolomite water stops it quick. How quick? Compared to a calmag fix for the same purpose on the same plant? Chem calmag begins to show effects the next day I found. It seemed to be fully engaged by the second day. That’s coco response time stuff, very quick in my book.

 

[Jon]

On the now freshly overwatered plant ( ) I'm now getting calcium spots. When I watered yesterday I added directly to the reservoir and used a weak WCA. I've always associated the brown spots with a deficiency but in this case maybe it's an excess? Or a lockout issue...

I measured about a 6 a couple of inches down, and 9-10 4+ inches down. I'd expect it to work its way out in a couple of more days.

I get those spots from calcium excess in chem or organic. Hasn’t happened yet organic.

 

[Azimuth]

On the now freshly overwatered plant ( ) I'm now getting calcium spots. When I watered yesterday I added directly to the reservoir and used a weak WCA. I've always associated the brown spots with a deficiency but in this case maybe it's an excess? Or a lockout issue...

I measured about a 6 a couple of inches down, and 9-10 4+ inches down. I'd expect it to work its way out in a couple of more days.

@Gee64 your thoughts?

 

[Gee64]

Thank you Gee.

It is already in the global mix but he said it would need more for flower.

It likely does then. That Elemental Mix that you posted the link for looks like excellent stuff meant to compliment the Classic Organic soil mix, which looks like an excellent base. I wouldn't hesitate to try both, and from what I see I would expect excellent results.

This worries me. It sounds risky unless you know what you're doing.

You do know what you're doing. You got this.

I don't know of any locally. I've been searching. There are these two possibilities but I don't know whether the NPK ratios are right.

Vita Fruit and Flower 3:1:5(18) - Talborne Organics

Switch to Urban Tap to select the previous period Next Vita Fruit & Flower 3:1:5 (18) Higher Potassium ratio to Nitrogen promotes flowers, fruits, and seed formation in crops. Potassium strengthens cell walls to improve resilience to pest and disease and stressful climatic conditions...

talborne.co.za

I like the Talborne product. It says available in pellet or meal. The meal is what you would cook in, its ground up pellets. The pellets are for slower release similar to the Geo Flora system. I would grab both, follow the instructions, and if it comes up short then mix it stronger next time. My experience is that well manucured cannabis plants, so pruned ones, require 50% more than veggies do, and mangy unkept ones that get huge and larfy require twice what veggies do. I'm not sure how that applies to auto's, but @Jon would know if an auto eats the same, less, or more than a photoperiod.

Green House Powder Feeding - BioBloom

Green House Powder Feeding Biofeed range is a 100% biological blend of natural minerals and organic nutrients which provide all the essential macro and micronutrients and promotes the microbial life in the soil, helping to establish a healthy soil food web for your plants. BioBloom (N-P-K...

growguru.co.za

This sounds more "we just want your money" than talborne, and here is why.

This is a screenshot of Talbornes product. It's a checklist of everything we discuss in here. I would trust this system. The other one not as much. If you go with Talborne, following their instructions would be paramount. The only glitch I can see posdibly arising is that they can't legally say its for cannabis, so they can't tell you how much to use for cannabis. You may need to mix it stronger, but my suspicion is that their formula is balanced, so stronger works if needed because it's balanced. Start with the recomendations and if it turns out weak you rebuild next run stronger.

Are you saying that you recommend a top dress once a week?

I do and here is how I formulate it per gallon of pot size.

If I use, or the instructions say, for example, 3 tbsp per gallon of soil mixed into the mix, then do that. Then as a top dressing I base my useage rate from that, so in a 5 gallon container it would be 15 tbsp mixed and cooked in, and for top dressing it would be another 15 tbsp per month (remember the Organic Clasdic, good for 2-6 weeks? split the difference, it's enough for 4 weeks). So 15 tbsp divided by 4 weeks is 3.75 tbsp per week in a 5 gallon pot, if the instructions said 3tbsp per gallon.

So recommended amount for mix per gallon, multiplied by pot size in gallons, divided by 4 equals weekly top dressing.

So the top dresding itself, here is how I do it.

I wait for a time when watering is needed so the surface is dry. I use my fingers to scratch the surface about 1 inch deep and break it up right to the edges of the pot but stay away from the stem by 1 full inch all the way around the stem.

Then smooth it out perfectly, add the top dressing evenly but not within that 1 inch of the trunk. Then add enough EWC to cover the top dressing lightly, so about twice what you top dressed of the mineral mix, then scratch it all in to that top inch and smooth it out perfectly again, then gently water as normal.

TLC is very important here. It makes a difference come harvest.

The mineral mix is minerals, EWC is organic matter. Both need replenishing weekly.Don't over do it out of kindness, too much isn't good with either product.

I could email the company that makes it but I don't know what questions to ask.

Ask what forms of calcium they use. Gypsum, dolomite, others? and how much per gallon or cubic foot total is in the mix. But having Calmag on hand will work if needed, and when you rebuild it you can control the amounts, or if you buy more soil instead of rebuilding it you add calcium to it then.

I made a water soluble calcium solution from egg shells and cuttlefish that I will try, otherwise I have some bottled calmag.

If you need to add a Calmag solution it's going to be to save the harvest, trust the commercial product, thats what it is designed to do so if it doesn't work they will go under. They know this, it will work.

So this is what I would do. I would use the 2 parts of the Classic Organic blend and Elemental mix Topdressing, then when I rebuilt the soil I would switch to the Talborne system because it looks easy with the same product having both meal and pellet form, then judge the 2 outcomes and go from there.

They both look very similar and I wouldn't hesitate to try either.

As for top dressing, pick a product and I will help you figure out your application rate. Once you see the math 1 time you will know how to apply and adjust it, it's easy if someone shows you the 1st time.

 

[Jon]

Do you top dress EWC by itself in between or only when you top dress the other stuff? I’ve been using it around every third or fourth watering.

Pretty much answered in one of your answers to Carmen below. Ignore this one. And it sounds like every fourth watering, which is about a week to ten days say, may be a decent application rate for EWC. I haven’t seen any calcium issues at that rate yet.