You're right. I'm a liar.
*smh*
*smh*
Trimming before flowering?
- Thread starter tomatofarmer
- Start date
I would never say such a thing or assume it. I do not think you are a liar, you believe what you believe and I will do the same. If you say you belive in a christian god but I don't, it doesn't make you a liar, it makes you a believer. Also doen't make you right, but you could be.
stimulating conversation is not about right and wrong, it is about sharing ideas and opinions and allowing the respondents to draw thier own conclutions.
Jonny
stimulating conversation is not about right and wrong, it is about sharing ideas and opinions and allowing the respondents to draw thier own conclutions.
Jonny
Have u tried like for like grows with heavy defoliation technique? and i dont mean a single plant vs a single plant? If not ur arguement means nothing really. When 2 experienced growers who have grown thousands of plants, THOUSANDS, say it works and not only that many, many more on this forum and outside of it, how can u say it doesnt work? Just because it didnt work for u doesnt mean it dont work, and whos to say the defoliation was the issue?
Alot of horticulture books are based on theory and also plants growing outdoors in the wild. Plants growing in the wild is a completely different thing to growing indoors. plants outside have to adapt to their surroundings and have stored energy stores. Indoor grows are carefully controlled enviromentally (at least by experienced growers) and it means you can do things that wouldnt necessarilly work out doors.
In the end it doesnt really matter as my grows speak for themselves and im certain 420fied agrees there too. I'll share my success in my journalling and i'll do a large like for like in my next journal too. Luckily i can do many things at once as i have many areas to work in. Maybe we could get the community to vote on the subject.
Alot of horticulture books are based on theory and also plants growing outdoors in the wild. Plants growing in the wild is a completely different thing to growing indoors. plants outside have to adapt to their surroundings and have stored energy stores. Indoor grows are carefully controlled enviromentally (at least by experienced growers) and it means you can do things that wouldnt necessarilly work out doors.
In the end it doesnt really matter as my grows speak for themselves and im certain 420fied agrees there too. I'll share my success in my journalling and i'll do a large like for like in my next journal too. Luckily i can do many things at once as i have many areas to work in. Maybe we could get the community to vote on the subject.
You implied it.
You wrote: "I am gunna have to stick to "logic", "reason" and "science" over your argument of " I know it does" ".
Even after telling you my findings through thousands of plants, that was your response. That's calling me a liar in my book.
I don't care how you grow. Do what's best for you and I'll do the same for myself. But don't come on here and tell us there's ABSOLUTELY no way that defoliation can benefit a grow because there are several growers here who have experienced otherwise.
Agreed, its quite insulting actually. The bottom line is the plant can take everything it needs from the root zone and disperse accordingly when given a healthy balanced nutrient schedule and given optimium conditions.
You will find many journals and growers on this site and else where which documents like for like and trials of there own that shows it works. Now these may not be scientific journals but i take hard evidence over theory anyday.
You will find many journals and growers on this site and else where which documents like for like and trials of there own that shows it works. Now these may not be scientific journals but i take hard evidence over theory anyday.
Intentionally or not I see I have made the wrong impression with my statement and obviously offended you guys. I did overstate my argument and did imply incorrectly. I stated my opinion as fact and wuashed your opinion for doing the same. I do come off like an asshole sometimes when I disagree.... but I really don't try. I am here to learn and spread the knowledge like everyone else here. My first point reaked of disdain and sarcasm, not quite what I wanted but if you knew me you would know it was not intentional.... just the way I am. 
I responded in such a way because of this...
You stated it with such authority that you made it sound like fact, when it is really just your belief. I made my post with the same authority and some facts to try to show the other side of the argument.
I truely have seen your (both of you) posts and journals and have much respect for your accomplishments and experience.
I do not have as much experience with defoliation as you guys do and clearly I will have to do some more research on it. If I am wrong I will be the first to admit it.
My apologies if I offended....
Jonny
I responded in such a way because of this...
You stated it with such authority that you made it sound like fact, when it is really just your belief. I made my post with the same authority and some facts to try to show the other side of the argument.
I truely have seen your (both of you) posts and journals and have much respect for your accomplishments and experience.
I do not have as much experience with defoliation as you guys do and clearly I will have to do some more research on it. If I am wrong I will be the first to admit it.
My apologies if I offended....
Jonny
oldman60
New Member
"Now these may not be scientific journals but i take hard evidence over theory anyday."
You have it backwards. A "scientific journal" done under controlled laboratory conditions would considered hard evidence.
I haven't seen a journal here doing a side by side comparison that meets those conditions.
The journals I've read here would be considered anecdotal.
You have it backwards. A "scientific journal" done under controlled laboratory conditions would considered hard evidence.
I haven't seen a journal here doing a side by side comparison that meets those conditions.
The journals I've read here would be considered anecdotal.
Intentionally or not I see I have made the wrong impression with my statement and obviously offended you guys. I did overstate my argument and did imply incorrectly. I stated my opinion as fact and wuashed your opinion for doing the same. I do come off like an asshole sometimes when I disagree.... but I really don't try. I am here to learn and spread the knowledge like everyone else here. My first point reaked of disdain and sarcasm, not quite what I wanted but if you knew me you would know it was not intentional.... just the way I am.
I responded in such a way because of this...
You stated it with such authority that you made it sound like fact, when it is really just your belief. I made my post with the same authority and some facts to try to show the other side of the argument.
I truely have seen your (both of you) posts and journals and have much respect for your accomplishments and experience.
I do not have as much experience with defoliation as you guys do and clearly I will have to do some more research on it. If I am wrong I will be the first to admit it.
My apologies if I offended....
Jonny
I appreciate the words. I just read your words as "I don't care about your experience. You're full of it." I took offense to that because I take my garden very seriously. In fact, I'll be opening a new journal soon where I will be running 300 flowering, defoliated, SOG plants at a time. I invite you to stop by and partake in the discussion.
I'm not disagreeing with what you pasted as that's obviously sound info, but rather your contention that defoliation absolutely, positively, cannot EVER have a positive effect on your garden. That said, I think there is a very fine line when it comes to defoliation. I think that too much defoliation, and executing it at the wrong time of the cycles, will certainly hinder growth.
For example: Defoliation during Veg will hinder veg growth. Defoliation done during the flower cycle before the stretch is over (pre day 21-23 on my strain), will hinder stretch and bud production. Defoliation done too aggressively will hinder your plants no matter when it's timed.
However, if timed correctly, my SOG benefits from defoliation in the way that with the large, middle fans removed allow the buds forming along the single stemmed, single cola plants I grow to fatten up. I've left runs undefoliated and the shaded bud sites along the stem weren't as fat. This may be strain dependent. I'm only telling you my findings.
Whasssupppppp dope-smokers?!?!?!
There are many ways to skin a cat, and many more to grow our plant. Selective defoliation is, in my opinion, a good strategy for indoor growing. Outdoors is a whole different beast. I've tried both ways, and I've gotten decent yields both ways. I've made many mistakes in the process, lol! I didn't always feel the way I do, and used to be more in Jonny's camp on this one (Stiletto).
I've landed on this: Selectively removing fan leaves definitely can improve bud mass due to increased light penetration, when done right. I don't understand all the science, and won't pretend to, but I've seen the evidence in 420fied's grows and in my own grow room, etc. It's not the only means to a good end, though. I think 420fied summed up how I feel about it too.
I've followed Stilletto's/Jonny's grows before, and no doubt he's proven good yields can be had the other way too.
I consider all of you my friends here (where've you been Jonny - miss seeing you around here!) so I hope nobody stays too rankled up over this topic. No topic that I'm aware of gets more polarizing in the growing community. This is our version of global warming or abortion, etc.
To defoliate or not to defoliate? No longer the question - just WHEN to defoliate and how much... IMO. Seriously, give it another try sometime Jonny... Good to see you around again, btw.
Much love to you all...
There are many ways to skin a cat, and many more to grow our plant. Selective defoliation is, in my opinion, a good strategy for indoor growing. Outdoors is a whole different beast. I've tried both ways, and I've gotten decent yields both ways. I've made many mistakes in the process, lol! I didn't always feel the way I do, and used to be more in Jonny's camp on this one (Stiletto).
I've landed on this: Selectively removing fan leaves definitely can improve bud mass due to increased light penetration, when done right. I don't understand all the science, and won't pretend to, but I've seen the evidence in 420fied's grows and in my own grow room, etc. It's not the only means to a good end, though. I think 420fied summed up how I feel about it too.
I've followed Stilletto's/Jonny's grows before, and no doubt he's proven good yields can be had the other way too.
I consider all of you my friends here (where've you been Jonny - miss seeing you around here!) so I hope nobody stays too rankled up over this topic. No topic that I'm aware of gets more polarizing in the growing community. This is our version of global warming or abortion, etc.
To defoliate or not to defoliate? No longer the question - just WHEN to defoliate and how much... IMO. Seriously, give it another try sometime Jonny... Good to see you around again, btw.
Much love to you all...
Xlr8 my friend.... calming words from a sober mind.
I was feeling stand-offish earlier... lol... All is ok now.... Good times with good friends. I am accually in week 2 of a new batch so I will defoliate one just to try.... never know, I am never afraid to learn something new. I will post updates on this thread and pics. Seemed only fair to try...
Jonny
I was feeling stand-offish earlier... lol... All is ok now....
Good times with good friends. I am accually in week 2 of a new batch so I will defoliate one just to try.... never know, I am never afraid to learn something new. I will post updates on this thread and pics. Seemed only fair to try... Jonny
oldman60
New Member
It will be interesting to see your results. I'm subbed.
im not just talking about journals on this forum. i may not have laboratory conditions but i have done like for like with controls in place. same cuttings from same mothers, same growing techniques, same nutrient schedule, same number of plants per light, same rh, same extraction.
i think myself and fied got a bit upset at the way the statement was put across. Basically sounded like u guys saying we full of shit..... I think people shouldnt just assume things without having the fuller picture, although i guess i too am guilty of jumping in with both feet at times. The fact is i only started the defoliation a little over a year ago, mainly on coco grows and i found the results spoke for themselves. oldman60 saying it cant be hard evidence because its not labatory conditions, ive grown enough plants to be able to intelligently know whether something is effective or not.
I can see where u guys are coming from though. When u read the text on the subject, its not supposed to work, infact it should be a bad thing! Now i not a scientist like X said and dont have the biology understanding that some guys have but ive learnt through trial and error over more than a decade of continuous growing. And although i cant say why scientifically it works, i can say in the field it works.
The forum discussions normally dont get my back up so much as everyone is entitled to share their thoughts and also what they have experienced. This should be encouraged as thats how we improve and learn new ideas. None of us are perfect and we are always striving for perfection (at least i am). I just didnt appreciate being made to look like i imagine what im doing.............lol
I can see where u guys are coming from though. When u read the text on the subject, its not supposed to work, infact it should be a bad thing! Now i not a scientist like X said and dont have the biology understanding that some guys have but ive learnt through trial and error over more than a decade of continuous growing. And although i cant say why scientifically it works, i can say in the field it works.
The forum discussions normally dont get my back up so much as everyone is entitled to share their thoughts and also what they have experienced. This should be encouraged as thats how we improve and learn new ideas. None of us are perfect and we are always striving for perfection (at least i am). I just didnt appreciate being made to look like i imagine what im doing.............lol
This is going to be a long post, addressing numerous poster's thoughts.
1. @Stilletto, First I would like to commend you on your comments in post #27. I am much like you sometimes and come off incorrectly. Being able to see and understand how it's possible we've done such, admit out faults, and appreciate why others have responded in such a manner takes class and balls. I try to do the same.
2. @Stilletto, Something you may want to seriously consider as a flaw in the often generalized thinking and comments about defoliation indoors: The most misused word in the arguments against defoliation is probably "scientific". But why is it so used against defoliation and never used against growing indoors? Scientifically speaking, we're not supposed to be able to grow indoors out of the sun! Tell me you understand the theory and thoughts on this generalized concept.
3. @Stilletto, I'm pretty confident in also stating the most common argument against defoliation is the removal of storage facilities for the flowers. But let's consider this in the real life world of wild plant life. Outdoors, uncultivated plants, which usually have had to make a meager living from whatever nutrients
occur naturally in the soil, begin consuming the nutrients stored in their leaves for flower production. This is
mostly true of indicas as they usually have a much shorter season than sativas and grow in areas with
pronounced wet/dry cycles. Usually wet during the vegetative stage and dry during the flowering stage.
This is important as the roots are not as effective at extracting nutrients from the soil in dry cycles. The
energy stored in the fan leaves becomes a food bank during those times. I have seen research papers that
indicate a direct relationship between soil moisture and nitrogen uptake, for example.
Indoors, cultivated plants are still getting fed high quality nutrients and do not need the stored leaf nutrients
as much.
Please read above a couple times and think about it. I am of the belief it's important to understand this aspect.
We are feeding our plants high quality nutrients right from the beginning of their lives all the way through to the end. In the earliest stages (my understanding anyways) of growth, fan leaves will help to feed by way of photosynthesis the newest, nearest attached flowering node. Yes, the fan becomes the mother tit feeding that newest tiniest developing node. But once that new node grows out a bit it no longer needs a tit to feed off of. Roots will supply all it needs from those high quality nutrients we are feeding our plants 24/7. This node also develops well enough that it does it's own photosynthesis.
From my experience (key word), I have learned that when defoliating, stripping fully developed fan leaves early in veg, the response of the plant is to stunt upwards growth & mobility momentarily and and immediately go towards producing new nodes and leaves. The result is much tighter nodal spacing! In other words, more bud sites in the same square area! If you look at my journals you will be able to see where I stripped plants early in veg of nearly all fan leaves and within 7-10 days these same plants had insanely more fans and so many more new nodes yet the height of the plants had increased little. Again, this is my experience, not theory, not science.
YES, defoliation in veg does slow upwards growth! Some will say this causes them fewer harvest per year and thus lost yield. However, I argue that for many people, this is not reality. Allow me to explain:
Almost all indoor growers will agree the longest cycle in growing is the flowering period. Commonly, on indicas this is 7-9 weeks. Yet many folks also only veg for anywhere from 2-4 weeks before flipping. Probably most of these folks will take clones from a mother plant or drop seeds based on knowing approximately when they will harvest, basically planning on this 2-4 week period of vegetative state. My question to you is, what were we growing in the rest of that veg area during the rest of that 5-7 week period of flowering? If planning like I do, on two defoliations in veg, I start new plants roughly 6 weeks before harvest. Basically planning on putting them into flower at about 12-14" height, but much wider and tighter than a 4 week veg, and still shorter! **For some methods, like say 2L hempys, folks are not trying to get wide fat bottomed girls and will be more conservative in veg**. But more to the point, after the very first grow using this technique, we are no longer having fewer harvests per year.
Flowering period: As we all know, the first three weeks of 12/12 comes with it a massive stretch period. As noted above, we don't defoliate during this stage because the plant will "shut down" upwards growth. Instead, we wait till stretch is over. By the end of stretch, sex has shown and flowers are developing. These flowers also have leaves, but they are not really fan leaves. They are I guess most often referred to has sugar leaves. It's at this point that we strip fan leaves at nodes where flowers are developed at least to a point where they have sugar leaves. From here on out, the most important thing to flowers and their growth is light! Fan leaves shade light. Yes we know they are transparent and light shines through. But when stacked, the light does not get through and each fan leaf does some shading of a bud site or flower. Compounded more and more by each subsequent fan leaf. Just take one look at the lowest branch and it's flowers in an non defoliated plant and you see minute, junky flowers that will never be smoked. These little flowers never get much in the way of trichome development either as I'm sure all are aware.
So after stretch, around the 21 day period, we strip fan leaves and allow light to penetrate top to bottom directly to all those wonderful flowers. While I do not have any light meters to test this, I can promise you, that if we had two plants of the same height, on day 22 of 12/12, one defoliated and one not, the defoliated plant will be seeing tons more lumen 18" deep into the plant vs the non defoliated.
@ Fuzzy Duck, I'm not sure what info is lacking as you state. I tried to be pretty descriptive of the process. I will say however, that I don't state anything about LST. At least not in the normal definition of LST. Yes I do some bending in veg and in flower. No, I don't LST, tie down branches. In fact, I never tie down branches like LST describes. I bend only to spread out the plant wider, thus opening it up for more light by not shading the inner areas. This is not LST by it's normal definition.
Nor is this scrog. Yes I do add some sting. A few strands here and there to give support, mostly to those outer branches as they get heavy with bud. But not until later in flower. In fact, in my most recent grow I did not add string until about day 35 in flower (day 42 or so in 12/12). I employ some of the uses or benefits of scrog but it's really to prevent heavy ass branches from falling over and in all cases, this also prevents the entire plant from falling over due to the heavy ass branches.
A common statement from many growers is that if you didn't have to add support to branches to prevent them from breaking, you're doing it wrong.
So while yes, I do employ some aspects of scrog, lst (bending laterally), this should not be confused with such methods in the traditional sense.
I did not invent this method. I am not a guru on it or growing either. I have however learned much from growers that have employed this method, quietly, for 30+ years. I have seen growers that were consistently yielding 8-9 oz per plant year in and year out, grow in and grow out, same strain, try this method, following the same described regimen, no other changes, and immediately go to yields of over 12 oz per plant. How can I possibly argue the results of such already highly successful growers that sees such increases in yield? I can't.
I will state in conclusion, there may be a learning curve to the less experienced grower when it comes to high defoliation techniques. I personally have seen it's benefits and also seen my mistakes in it's use. Two excellent examples of my mistakes which still saw increases in yield but were obviously not optimal included vegging too tall thereby stretching so tall they were too close to the light at max hood adjustment and even after bending the canopy top was so full of nothing but bud, the light couldnt penetrate to the lower sections of the plant. The other major mistake was doing multiple plants in a large dwc tub. They were just too damn close to each other and shaded each other out. Yet I still saw them do better.
My last grow I had my first plant that hit 10.43oz dry. My goal is more humble than others, but it's to consistently yield a 10 oz, per plant, dry weight average with plants less than 33" tall. That last grow was the one that was too tall. It didn't yield to it's potential.
I hope I've shed some thoughts on the topic and provoked some thought. No single way of growing is the end all be all. Each grower must decide for himself which methods he/she is comfortable with and wishes to employ. Each method, be it hempy, vert, sog, scrog, lst, dwc, ebb n flow, soil, soil less, led, hps, cfl, co2, no co2, etc will work and grow with excellent results for that growers needs & desires. It's up to us to decide which is best for our needs, abilities, desires, equipment.
1. @Stilletto, First I would like to commend you on your comments in post #27. I am much like you sometimes and come off incorrectly. Being able to see and understand how it's possible we've done such, admit out faults, and appreciate why others have responded in such a manner takes class and balls. I try to do the same.
2. @Stilletto, Something you may want to seriously consider as a flaw in the often generalized thinking and comments about defoliation indoors: The most misused word in the arguments against defoliation is probably "scientific". But why is it so used against defoliation and never used against growing indoors? Scientifically speaking, we're not supposed to be able to grow indoors out of the sun! Tell me you understand the theory and thoughts on this generalized concept.
3. @Stilletto, I'm pretty confident in also stating the most common argument against defoliation is the removal of storage facilities for the flowers. But let's consider this in the real life world of wild plant life. Outdoors, uncultivated plants, which usually have had to make a meager living from whatever nutrients
occur naturally in the soil, begin consuming the nutrients stored in their leaves for flower production. This is
mostly true of indicas as they usually have a much shorter season than sativas and grow in areas with
pronounced wet/dry cycles. Usually wet during the vegetative stage and dry during the flowering stage.
This is important as the roots are not as effective at extracting nutrients from the soil in dry cycles. The
energy stored in the fan leaves becomes a food bank during those times. I have seen research papers that
indicate a direct relationship between soil moisture and nitrogen uptake, for example.
Indoors, cultivated plants are still getting fed high quality nutrients and do not need the stored leaf nutrients
as much.
Please read above a couple times and think about it. I am of the belief it's important to understand this aspect.
We are feeding our plants high quality nutrients right from the beginning of their lives all the way through to the end. In the earliest stages (my understanding anyways) of growth, fan leaves will help to feed by way of photosynthesis the newest, nearest attached flowering node. Yes, the fan becomes the mother tit feeding that newest tiniest developing node. But once that new node grows out a bit it no longer needs a tit to feed off of. Roots will supply all it needs from those high quality nutrients we are feeding our plants 24/7. This node also develops well enough that it does it's own photosynthesis.
From my experience (key word), I have learned that when defoliating, stripping fully developed fan leaves early in veg, the response of the plant is to stunt upwards growth & mobility momentarily and and immediately go towards producing new nodes and leaves. The result is much tighter nodal spacing! In other words, more bud sites in the same square area! If you look at my journals you will be able to see where I stripped plants early in veg of nearly all fan leaves and within 7-10 days these same plants had insanely more fans and so many more new nodes yet the height of the plants had increased little. Again, this is my experience, not theory, not science.
YES, defoliation in veg does slow upwards growth! Some will say this causes them fewer harvest per year and thus lost yield. However, I argue that for many people, this is not reality. Allow me to explain:
Almost all indoor growers will agree the longest cycle in growing is the flowering period. Commonly, on indicas this is 7-9 weeks. Yet many folks also only veg for anywhere from 2-4 weeks before flipping. Probably most of these folks will take clones from a mother plant or drop seeds based on knowing approximately when they will harvest, basically planning on this 2-4 week period of vegetative state. My question to you is, what were we growing in the rest of that veg area during the rest of that 5-7 week period of flowering? If planning like I do, on two defoliations in veg, I start new plants roughly 6 weeks before harvest. Basically planning on putting them into flower at about 12-14" height, but much wider and tighter than a 4 week veg, and still shorter! **For some methods, like say 2L hempys, folks are not trying to get wide fat bottomed girls and will be more conservative in veg**. But more to the point, after the very first grow using this technique, we are no longer having fewer harvests per year.
Flowering period: As we all know, the first three weeks of 12/12 comes with it a massive stretch period. As noted above, we don't defoliate during this stage because the plant will "shut down" upwards growth. Instead, we wait till stretch is over. By the end of stretch, sex has shown and flowers are developing. These flowers also have leaves, but they are not really fan leaves. They are I guess most often referred to has sugar leaves. It's at this point that we strip fan leaves at nodes where flowers are developed at least to a point where they have sugar leaves. From here on out, the most important thing to flowers and their growth is light! Fan leaves shade light. Yes we know they are transparent and light shines through. But when stacked, the light does not get through and each fan leaf does some shading of a bud site or flower. Compounded more and more by each subsequent fan leaf. Just take one look at the lowest branch and it's flowers in an non defoliated plant and you see minute, junky flowers that will never be smoked. These little flowers never get much in the way of trichome development either as I'm sure all are aware.
So after stretch, around the 21 day period, we strip fan leaves and allow light to penetrate top to bottom directly to all those wonderful flowers. While I do not have any light meters to test this, I can promise you, that if we had two plants of the same height, on day 22 of 12/12, one defoliated and one not, the defoliated plant will be seeing tons more lumen 18" deep into the plant vs the non defoliated.
@ Fuzzy Duck, I'm not sure what info is lacking as you state. I tried to be pretty descriptive of the process. I will say however, that I don't state anything about LST. At least not in the normal definition of LST. Yes I do some bending in veg and in flower. No, I don't LST, tie down branches. In fact, I never tie down branches like LST describes. I bend only to spread out the plant wider, thus opening it up for more light by not shading the inner areas. This is not LST by it's normal definition.
Nor is this scrog. Yes I do add some sting. A few strands here and there to give support, mostly to those outer branches as they get heavy with bud. But not until later in flower. In fact, in my most recent grow I did not add string until about day 35 in flower (day 42 or so in 12/12). I employ some of the uses or benefits of scrog but it's really to prevent heavy ass branches from falling over and in all cases, this also prevents the entire plant from falling over due to the heavy ass branches.
A common statement from many growers is that if you didn't have to add support to branches to prevent them from breaking, you're doing it wrong.
So while yes, I do employ some aspects of scrog, lst (bending laterally), this should not be confused with such methods in the traditional sense.
I did not invent this method. I am not a guru on it or growing either. I have however learned much from growers that have employed this method, quietly, for 30+ years. I have seen growers that were consistently yielding 8-9 oz per plant year in and year out, grow in and grow out, same strain, try this method, following the same described regimen, no other changes, and immediately go to yields of over 12 oz per plant. How can I possibly argue the results of such already highly successful growers that sees such increases in yield? I can't.
I will state in conclusion, there may be a learning curve to the less experienced grower when it comes to high defoliation techniques. I personally have seen it's benefits and also seen my mistakes in it's use. Two excellent examples of my mistakes which still saw increases in yield but were obviously not optimal included vegging too tall thereby stretching so tall they were too close to the light at max hood adjustment and even after bending the canopy top was so full of nothing but bud, the light couldnt penetrate to the lower sections of the plant. The other major mistake was doing multiple plants in a large dwc tub. They were just too damn close to each other and shaded each other out. Yet I still saw them do better.
My last grow I had my first plant that hit 10.43oz dry. My goal is more humble than others, but it's to consistently yield a 10 oz, per plant, dry weight average with plants less than 33" tall. That last grow was the one that was too tall. It didn't yield to it's potential.
I hope I've shed some thoughts on the topic and provoked some thought. No single way of growing is the end all be all. Each grower must decide for himself which methods he/she is comfortable with and wishes to employ. Each method, be it hempy, vert, sog, scrog, lst, dwc, ebb n flow, soil, soil less, led, hps, cfl, co2, no co2, etc will work and grow with excellent results for that growers needs & desires. It's up to us to decide which is best for our needs, abilities, desires, equipment.
Well said Bass. Put across way better than i can explain it.
Well guys my goal of stimulating some conversation seems to be fofilled lol.
First off,
Bassman59..... wow very nice post, well said and covered most points of contention. Good job.
I always run identical sets of plants so this run will be a good opportunity to test this idea... I will likely be looking to the pros here on proper defoliation. This will be a great "almost scientific" study!
I also have some questions for ya'll.....
Since almost all of the arguements are in regards to "light penetration" as the main arguement, Would you guys - or would you not say that pinning the leaves back is 1. better than defoliation, 2. same as defoliation, or 3. not as good as defoliation?
Is light penetration is the only benefit to defoliation?
I fully understand the difference between indoor lights and the sun, also how light degredation from HID lights compares to the sun. Light penetration is indeed important indoors.
@Bassman...
This is a similar arguement that was brought up before in this subject..... this is the part that I still don't understand... for many reasons. I will try to elaborate.....(without coming off the wrong way I hope)...
The theory is that leaves are storage units, (understanding thier role as tits to young shutes), but from what I have read they are not long term storage, but accually factories durring the day, producing food and then storing it untill night time to be used. This is where I begin to get frustrated.... a few responses here have insinuated that a plant gets it's food from the roots.... this (i believe) is not true. The plant absorbs food directly from the roots. Nutes must travel up to the leaves (durring dark), and when the lights come on then photosynthesis converts those nutrients using CO2 into carbohydrates and then when the lights go off again it transports the newly made food to the parts of the plants that require it. Here is some info...
So in my humble opinion by removing the leaves we are removing the factories that produce the food. I still do not see how this helps increase yeild. Once again don't get me wrong.... I believe in aliens but have no proof they exist so I can understand that -just cause it don't make sense don't mean it aint real.
I also wonder about this issue.... Light is needed for photosynthesis, by defoliating we are allowing more light penetration therefore allowing the buds to preform this task. I would think that a leafs overall area would provide much more photosynthesis than the small leaves at the bud site?
These are the things that keep me up at night. lol
I do not expect that you guys have the answers for my questions, nor do I think that these arguements conclude that defoliation doesn,t work, they are just questions to stimulate conversation. As I have stated I will be doing this procedure on my current grow so I can judge more fairly.
Food for tjought...
Jonny
First off,
This was indeed a bold statement that I made and I will admit it was a little to "I am right - you are wrong"... I kinda came out swinging instead of respecting others opinions. I still believe this but with less assurance than before.
Bassman59..... wow very nice post, well said and covered most points of contention. Good job.
I always run identical sets of plants so this run will be a good opportunity to test this idea... I will likely be looking to the pros here on proper defoliation. This will be a great "almost scientific" study!
I also have some questions for ya'll.....
Since almost all of the arguements are in regards to "light penetration" as the main arguement, Would you guys - or would you not say that pinning the leaves back is 1. better than defoliation, 2. same as defoliation, or 3. not as good as defoliation?
Is light penetration is the only benefit to defoliation?
I fully understand the difference between indoor lights and the sun, also how light degredation from HID lights compares to the sun. Light penetration is indeed important indoors.
@Bassman...
This is a similar arguement that was brought up before in this subject..... this is the part that I still don't understand... for many reasons. I will try to elaborate.....(without coming off the wrong way I hope)...
The theory is that leaves are storage units, (understanding thier role as tits to young shutes), but from what I have read they are not long term storage, but accually factories durring the day, producing food and then storing it untill night time to be used. This is where I begin to get frustrated.... a few responses here have insinuated that a plant gets it's food from the roots.... this (i believe) is not true. The plant absorbs food directly from the roots. Nutes must travel up to the leaves (durring dark), and when the lights come on then photosynthesis converts those nutrients using CO2 into carbohydrates and then when the lights go off again it transports the newly made food to the parts of the plants that require it. Here is some info...
So in my humble opinion by removing the leaves we are removing the factories that produce the food. I still do not see how this helps increase yeild. Once again don't get me wrong.... I believe in aliens but have no proof they exist so I can understand that -just cause it don't make sense don't mean it aint real.
I also wonder about this issue.... Light is needed for photosynthesis, by defoliating we are allowing more light penetration therefore allowing the buds to preform this task. I would think that a leafs overall area would provide much more photosynthesis than the small leaves at the bud site?
These are the things that keep me up at night. lol
I do not expect that you guys have the answers for my questions, nor do I think that these arguements conclude that defoliation doesn,t work, they are just questions to stimulate conversation. As I have stated I will be doing this procedure on my current grow so I can judge more fairly.
Food for tjought...
Jonny
Light penetration isn't the only benefit to defoliation. That is, to rephrase, bud growth is the benefit of defoliation, as a result of light penetration.
If you look to my most recent grow, you will see there are still a pretty fair amount of leaves. Mostly all sugar leaves. Fan leaves with a stem are removed from the bud sites for the most part. Some folks will go further than I, and I may also as I get it dialed in. Right now I'm dialing in size, area, light spread and depth. This may take a couple more grows to perfect. I'm actually leaning more and more to the possibility that 4 plants in a 5'x5' area is too much. Three may be more ideal and yield me more. Yes, more can be less. Why? because of too much area shading even from bud sites, and we know we don't want to chop them out of the picture!
Not meaning to take anything away from basic nutrients, I think light is the most important part to bud development. Let's face it, it isn't from lack of leaves most grows have crap un-smokeable, no thc, buds at the bottom of those plants. It's because they didnt get any light. Yet outdoors, those same plants would yield triple because they got 100k lumen from top to bottom compared to the degraded 5k lumen filtered out even thinner by the hundreds of leaves shading the hid light out at the bottom. Yet both the outdoor and the indoor lower sites had leaf to "feed it" by your definition above. With defoliation, we turn much of that crap down low into honest useable bud. The mid sections grow bigger and better, also increasing yield.
That's my deduction on the science of it anyways.
p.s. If you choose to do this with your next two plant grow, please don't try "side by side" defoliated and non. One will shade out the other and not give you good honest results. Do the one grow all or nothing imho. We're here to help if you have any questions. feel free to post in my journals or in the defoliation thread and I'm sure one of the many practitioners of this will offer what they can. When it's all said and done, let us know your real honest thoughts. You won't offend anyone. It may or may not be for you. But be prepared to have "seen the light" and become a defoliation evangelist or convert as it were.
Just a side note: I know of a grower who averaged 10.49 oz per plant before defoliation indoors (he does vert). I'll quote his response after 5 consecutive defoliated plants: i just weighed last weeks plant and it only went 15.80. i guess i screwed up somewhere.
so my last five consecutive defoliated plants went 11.96, 12.35, 14.74, 18.38, and 15.80 for a total of 73.23
or an average of 14.65 each.
my last 5 plants before defoliation averaged 10.49, or 52.45 total oz's.
a total difference of 20.78 or 4.16 zips per plant.
i have been doing a series of changes over the last year to drive up yield and this one, defoliating, has made
the largest difference.
If you look to my most recent grow, you will see there are still a pretty fair amount of leaves. Mostly all sugar leaves. Fan leaves with a stem are removed from the bud sites for the most part. Some folks will go further than I, and I may also as I get it dialed in. Right now I'm dialing in size, area, light spread and depth. This may take a couple more grows to perfect. I'm actually leaning more and more to the possibility that 4 plants in a 5'x5' area is too much. Three may be more ideal and yield me more. Yes, more can be less. Why? because of too much area shading even from bud sites, and we know we don't want to chop them out of the picture!
Not meaning to take anything away from basic nutrients, I think light is the most important part to bud development. Let's face it, it isn't from lack of leaves most grows have crap un-smokeable, no thc, buds at the bottom of those plants. It's because they didnt get any light. Yet outdoors, those same plants would yield triple because they got 100k lumen from top to bottom compared to the degraded 5k lumen filtered out even thinner by the hundreds of leaves shading the hid light out at the bottom. Yet both the outdoor and the indoor lower sites had leaf to "feed it" by your definition above. With defoliation, we turn much of that crap down low into honest useable bud. The mid sections grow bigger and better, also increasing yield.
That's my deduction on the science of it anyways.
p.s. If you choose to do this with your next two plant grow, please don't try "side by side" defoliated and non. One will shade out the other and not give you good honest results. Do the one grow all or nothing imho. We're here to help if you have any questions. feel free to post in my journals or in the defoliation thread and I'm sure one of the many practitioners of this will offer what they can. When it's all said and done, let us know your real honest thoughts. You won't offend anyone. It may or may not be for you. But be prepared to have "seen the light" and become a defoliation evangelist or convert as it were.
Just a side note: I know of a grower who averaged 10.49 oz per plant before defoliation indoors (he does vert). I'll quote his response after 5 consecutive defoliated plants: i just weighed last weeks plant and it only went 15.80. i guess i screwed up somewhere.
so my last five consecutive defoliated plants went 11.96, 12.35, 14.74, 18.38, and 15.80 for a total of 73.23
or an average of 14.65 each.
my last 5 plants before defoliation averaged 10.49, or 52.45 total oz's.
a total difference of 20.78 or 4.16 zips per plant.
i have been doing a series of changes over the last year to drive up yield and this one, defoliating, has made
the largest difference.
I think that a key to not misunderstanding this statement is that not ALL of the leaves are being removed. The plant needs to keep ENOUGH leaves to process the buffet of nutrients it is given. As time goes on, I see the larger fan leaves more and more as a buffer for the plants during lean times (which we rarely give them!).
That's also why I'm hesitant to encourage a new grower to start yanking their fan leaves all over the place. You need to make sure you can keep a plant healthy before you remove their protective buffers. But with proper nutrition being constantly supplied, it appears the plant can maximize light with many of these removed, if that makes sense.
I won't pull a leaf, until the corresponding bud-site has it's own leaves and stem to help support itself. Otherwise, you will start to affect yield and stunt growth. However, once it has it's own stem and leaves - even small ones, it doesn't seem to need the corresponding fan leaf if it's getting good nutrition and light.
These are my observations and experiences only - just throwing that out there from the standpoint of what I'm observing and how it appears to me.
Bassman, incredibly detailed post worth reps, but I have repped you too recently I think.
Stiletto - cool that you are open to thinking outside the... leaf? I have mad respect for your skills brother - I've seen those monster Big Bangs of yours!!
I think that a key to not misunderstanding this statement is that not ALL of the leaves are being removed. The plant needs to keep ENOUGH leaves to process the buffet of nutrients it is given. As time goes on, I see the larger fan leaves more and more as a buffer for the plants during lean times (which we rarely give them!).
That's also why I'm hesitant to encourage a new grower to start yanking their fan leaves all over the place. You need to make sure you can keep a plant healthy before you remove their protective buffers. But with proper nutrition being constantly supplied, it appears the plant can maximize light with many of these removed, if that makes sense.
I won't pull a leaf, until the corresponding bud-site has it's own leaves and stem to help support itself. Otherwise, you will start to affect yield and stunt growth. However, once it has it's own stem and leaves - even small ones, it doesn't seem to need the corresponding fan leaf if it's getting good nutrition and light.
These are my observations and experiences only - just throwing that out there from the standpoint of what I'm observing and how it appears to me.
Bassman, incredibly detailed post worth reps, but I have repped you too recently I think.
Stiletto - cool that you are open to thinking outside the... leaf? I have mad respect for your skills brother - I've seen those monster Big Bangs of yours!!
Indeed, as X stated. This is also what I suggest (the bolded) in the defoliation thread.
