36Gr0w's First Journal - Hi-Brix - LOS - Indoor & Out!

[36Gr0w]

Duggs, I'd try to stay away from platinum if you can. Shady company that lies to customers. They are made in China btw. I'm sure they have plenty of excuses as to why they ship from China. Rebranded overpriced old technology. They are giving huge discounts to former members in am effort to push sales. It really is quite humorous. The same goes for so many other companies as well.

LED grown buds being more potent? I'd like to see actual tests and scientific grow data supporting this claim. Like so many other various claims in this industry, this one seems made up to sell lights. Its pretty crazy that some people think crap made, entry level econo-lights have a better spectrum than the sun, just because a salesman told them so.

 

[36Gr0w]

Duggs, don't worry about being harsh or anything. I say what I want and how I feel, I would never hold it against someone for doing the same. I can be outspoken and blunt, and I'm growing tiresome of trying to be "politically correct" and "message board respectful" to people spreading lies or selling products.

 

[SweetSue]

You make a good point 36, and one I'd not stopped to consider. So the buds are prettier or frostier, but does that make them better? Where's the data to support that? Better in what respect? Sometimes I feel this drive for perfection is a bit insane. If what you grow works for you, then is it necessary to keep pushing it further? When do we reach a point of diminishing returns, and if no one's collecting scientific data, how will we ever know that? There's so much hype in the business, almost all created to push sales.

You keep pushing for transparency and accountability. We could use more of it.

 

[BrixKlinger]

I have no bone to pick, but if there is an industry standard in LED grow lighting, it seems to be a lack of credibility.

Watching with interest the LED grows blowing up this year, but then saw a room with no AC full of 315w CMHs.

These 2 factors shove LED tech to a corner of my mind where it was a couple years ago.

This isn't a bunch of hate just real world observations. I live in CO and don't know ANYBODY running LED.

 

[36Gr0w]

I live in WA, and no one legitimate actually considers LED as a viable option. Sure, a few tried it out for a brief period, and learned they were losing money because of it. LEDS are fine for smaller grows, but anything bigger than 5x5, no way.

Gavitas on the other hand are all over the place, and for good reason.

 

[ClosedCircuit]

Duggs, I'd try to stay away from platinum if you can. Shady company that lies to customers. They are made in China btw. I'm sure they have plenty of excuses as to why they ship from China. Rebranded overpriced old technology. They are giving huge discounts to former members in am effort to push sales. It really is quite humorous. The same goes for so many other companies as well.

LED grown buds being more potent? I'd like to see actual tests and scientific grow data supporting this claim. Like so many other various claims in this industry, this one seems made up to sell lights. Its pretty crazy that some people think crap made, entry level econo-lights have a better spectrum than the sun, just because a salesman told them so.

I personally don't understand how anyone (including people here) could drop $1200 on an LED light. The science behind how LED lights actually match up with the spectrum required for photosynthesis is debatable at best. There is, as of last I checked, only one published review which explores the effect of UV radiation on THC production. It was wildly inconclusive. Unfortunately, you see very few people like you and me allowed to stand against the overlord LED companies. So many of those lighting companies sponsor boards like this one that it would ultimately be bad for business if everyone got it in their head that they are better off buying a cheap Mars Hydro light than some Platinum God Bud Master 2000 thingamajig because word got out that all those additional UV and infrared diodes are just a gimmick that allows companies to charge obscene prices. Unimaginable prices even. Those little 3w and 5w UV diodes cost over $100 in some places. They don't even emit enough light to recreate the inconclusive experiments of the above study.

Literally, infrared and especially UV diodes just serve to make your grow room warmer and your electric bill larger. They don't emit usable light - not to plants anyway. All they do is emit heat/uv a and b photons which a plant would theoretically then have to upconvert to use as light energy. I'm pretty sure that violates a few laws of physics...living beings converting energy to a higher energy state. What really happens is any light outside the usable spectrum is lost as heat. People who believe this nonsense are literally saying that plants can absorb heat itself for energy...which would eventually cause the plant to freeze and die because all the warmth around it was absorbed. What?

You can even see that Mars Hydro started adding UV diodes to compete with the rest of the market. Their 100x3w model that finally sold out recently had zero UV diodes. Instead it had a full spectrum of Blue, white, and red. All their newer lights currently have said fluff diodes to make them seem relevant. I guess I can't blame them. They'd be run out of business by ignorant consumers who demand expensive fluff lighting. Some units that sell for over a grand have very few to no warm or cool white diodes even though they cover the broadest spectrum of light usable to most plants, asides from red.

Rant off...I'm happy with my Mars Light because its pretty much the exact same thing as all these other lights that cost more than 10 times more just without the sexy stamped metal enclosure.

 

[flowerfarmer]

Something I just found before I read your post.

"How Does UV Light Effect Marijuana Plants?

But what does all this mean to your cannabis garden? To answer that, we need to investigate how UV light affects plants cells. Ultra-violet radiation, particularly UVB, has been shown to be detrimental to plant cell function. UV causes damage to plant cells in the same way it tears through your skin, eventually causing sunburn. As a result of this damage, all plants have created defenses against UV in the form of gene UVR8.

UVR8 is a protein molecule which senses UV all by itself, and then "tells" plant cells to change their behavior. Exactly how UVR8 molecules sense UV was recently discovered and is pretty interesting. UVR8 is what chemists call a "dimer." which just means that it's made of two structurally similar protein subunits. When UV light hits the two protein subunits in UVR8, their charge weakens and they break apart. To help visualize this, imagine rubbing two balloons against one another. The balloons will stick together because of a static charge. Now imagine the balloons get rained on. The water takes the static charge with it and the two balloons fly apart. In this example, the balloons are the two protein subunits and the rain is UV light cascading down on the plant cell. After the protein subunits break apart, they head to the cell nucleus to deliver their information.

More UV Can Mean More THC

One of these changes caused by this information is very important in your cannabis garden. UV stress stimulates cannabis' production of chemicals via the phenylpropanoid pathway, specifically malonyl-CoA and phenylalanine. Why is this important? It's important because cannabis uses malonyl-CoA to make Olivtol, which it in turn uses to make THC. Now we can see the specific pathway which cannabis uses to increase potency when exposed to UV light."

Usually the most potent cannabis varieties are found near the equator where UV-B is the strongest.

 

[36Gr0w]

Great posts guys, thank you!

 

[36Gr0w]

Apparently I was banned from a Q&A thread for Platinum elsewhere. The last question I asked was what tool they use to measure PAR. If a company starts a Q&A thread, then avoids questions, lies, distracts with unrelated writing, and gets rid of people who aren't cheerleaders, they probably aren't a good company to buy from. Like you said CC, most every light can grow these plants.

Both Mars and Platinum currently use Bridgelux and Epi-whatever diodes. Both claim future products including Cree. One admits to made in China, has a terrible warranty, and it takes going public with issues to get customer service. Another claims it is made in the US (how can it be if it is shipping from China?), offers a 5 year warranty(as a redistributor), and gives incredible customer service (I'm told).

How many HID sponsored journals are there? How many LED sponsored journals are there in comparison? Currently most LED companies are fighting for space in the tent and small room grows. Giant growers with million dollar investors aren't using LED, with money to throw around. Plenty of growers being sponsored are getting free or discounted product to advertise their products. Very few are objective about it, and those few have my respect.

 

[36Gr0w]

And for the record, my Mars old model and the smallest reflector do great for veg. Very tight node spacing and low power. I don't have hate for LEDs, just don't feel they are "there" yet. Legalization and a growing LEGAL market in the US will hopefully bring us competitiveness and development for many new and improved products. Many small startup lighting companies are popping up using current technology, I'm excited to see where it goes from here.

 

[ClosedCircuit]

Something I just found before I read your post.

"How Does UV Light Effect Marijuana Plants?

But what does all this mean to your cannabis garden? To answer that, we need to investigate how UV light affects plants cells. Ultra-violet radiation, particularly UVB, has been shown to be detrimental to plant cell function. UV causes damage to plant cells in the same way it tears through your skin, eventually causing sunburn. As a result of this damage, all plants have created defenses against UV in the form of gene UVR8.

UVR8 is a protein molecule which senses UV all by itself, and then "tells" plant cells to change their behavior. Exactly how UVR8 molecules sense UV was recently discovered and is pretty interesting. UVR8 is what chemists call a "dimer." which just means that it's made of two structurally similar protein subunits. When UV light hits the two protein subunits in UVR8, their charge weakens and they break apart. To help visualize this, imagine rubbing two balloons against one another. The balloons will stick together because of a static charge. Now imagine the balloons get rained on. The water takes the static charge with it and the two balloons fly apart. In this example, the balloons are the two protein subunits and the rain is UV light cascading down on the plant cell. After the protein subunits break apart, they head to the cell nucleus to deliver their information.

More UV Can Mean More THC

One of these changes caused by this information is very important in your cannabis garden. UV stress stimulates cannabis' production of chemicals via the phenylpropanoid pathway, specifically malonyl-CoA and phenylalanine. Why is this important? It's important because cannabis uses malonyl-CoA to make Olivtol, which it in turn uses to make THC. Now we can see the specific pathway which cannabis uses to increase potency when exposed to UV light."

Usually the most potent cannabis varieties are found near the equator where UV-B is the strongest.

Where did you read this? And is there any attached journal which goes over this? Because that sounds alot like what I posted. Theoretically yes, THC could protect the plants from UV radiation. But, there is very little evidence that definitively proves this as results are not consistent. You would be better served just going with better genetics than hoping that you might get a marginal increase in THC

Furthermore, comparing the UV radiation from the sun to LED systems is not fair. An array of UV diodes at a distance of a couple feet from your plant is going to put out a fraction of the UV radiation of the Sun.

edit: Just wanted to add one thing...

Alot, if not most of these LED companies, are not marketing directly to Cannabis growers. Some do. Mars Hydro is very obvious in its intent to market to cannabis growers...others with names like "Bud Master" probably have the same intent. But by and large they are tools of agriculture in general. Yet, not all crops have this fabulous THC layer to shield them from UV rays. Using that as a marketing ploy when only one crop grown with the light could make use of it seems kind of crazy... they get all these other (non cannabis) indoor farmers to pay out the ass for lights that don't do anything extra for them because those farmers also don't understand how these lights work. All the while these companies sales are booming because they are talking out the side of their mouths at Cannabis growers who are lapping this stuff up. I would rather split the difference and spend a grand on super dank genetics than rely on unproven science to maybe improve THC levels.

 

[Duggan]

Wow...what a good read all this was! Now i don't know what to think....should i buy a P600 or not????MMMMMM?
It's alot of $$, like 650 + plus the exchange. So prolly close to 8 bills, wow!

 

[ClosedCircuit]

Wow...what a good read all this was! Now i don't know what to think....should i buy a P600 or not????MMMMMM?
It's alot of $$, like 650 + plus the exchange. So prolly close to 8 bills, wow!

Look at the spectrum covered by the light and all the different types of diodes. Compare that to every other light, especially mars hydro, and see if you can track the differences. Remember you want a good spread of red, white, and blue diodes. Far red/infrared is almost useless and as I've discussed UV is not understood by science yet. If it starts to seems like the difference in cost is arbitrary then it probably is. Go the cheapest route possible as long that light has what you need.

 

[SeedLab]

Wouldn't bother with LED right now, do an Image search on Google for LED grow light, why do most of these light look like they were all made in the same factories? It is all hype, and anyone hyping and LED never did pay full price and if they say they did they are lying.

I do not pay full price on something I have never used or never seen the results from and then hype it all the way risking my rep for nothing, we all know cannabis can grow pretty much anywhere, you should see my dark worm bin after defoliating a week later I have little rooted plants in pure darkness.

It's all a big crap shoot

 

[Graytail]

As long as 36Gr0w brought all this up, I'd like to throw in my two cents worth.

I'm pretty much in agreement. I started with a 600W hps and still haven't seen equal performance out of LEDs. LEDs will produce tighter stickier buds, but if you want equal poundage you need a lot more wattage than the manufacturers claim. The power savings are kinda bogus unless you really get the room dialed in. The heat savings are true.

I've looked at all the 420 sponsors, as well as some of the other brands that aren't represented here, and some of the DIY stuff, and I've tried to reconcile the odd differences in cost. If you take Mars-Hydro as a baseline it's tough to find a DIY that's actually cheaper. I bought three 180W 5-band panels from them for about $70 each. That's under $0.5 a watt compared to $3 per watt for the respected brands with the whiz-bang super duper features. So I get 6 times as much wattage for my dollar with the cheapos. It seems to me that, mostly, more wattage = more better. I don't know how ANY feature could outweigh 6 times as much light. But I'm a cheapskate. Lots of people will willingly pay for whiz-bang.

As far as where it's built, I don' care, as long as it's built with durable quality parts. I've already had a bad experience with an American reseller, so I'm not at all impressed with a domestic brand that assures me that everything will be ok because it's an American warranty. It's only a warranty if the guy is still in business when too many of his products fail. And I'm not excited to pay for something just because it wasn't assembled with cheap labor. American companies are great when they find a way to make something as cheap as the competition, or offer a groundbreaking design. When they're just reselling a Chinese design, I'm hesitant to pay more.

This next grow should show me how LEDs truly perform. One thing is for sure, though - you need a LOT more power than the manufacturers and LED fans claim. They may put out 50% more PAR per watt but it doesn't produce the same results as HID.

 

[36Gr0w]

Another thing, PAR readings measure a certain range. From what I can find, it isn't effective for measuring the white full spectrum lights, and seems to be another marketing gimmick to appear legit. There are mathematical equations to convert one measurement to another for comparisons sake, but I'm not nearly smart enough or interested in that.

 

[ClosedCircuit]

One thing to consider is necessity. I'll use my space for example. Its a small enough space that the 96x3w Mars light is more than enough. The footprint of that light also matches the dimensions of my space. That said, a 250 HPS could also work in there because I have a fan that circulates enough air to keep it cool, the power usage would be comparable, space considerations would be about the same, and I would have the added bonus of increased foot print and penetration. The only thing I am worried about with hps is temps during the summer/ burning the plants...but I think that could be worked around. I'm still considering one for cold weather grows since LED wont be keeping the space warm.

Meanwhile, a warehouse grow would make better use of HPS because its foot print is much wider, meaning less lights are necessary, meaning more bang for your buck. The directly downward projection of light from an led would mean that the ceiling of the room would almost literally need to be covered in lights.

 

[bobrown14]

Good discussion on lighting...

MY experience has been a positive one going from HID to LED. I was using 1 600W HID for 4 plants in a 4x4 footprint.
Went to a 5x10 footprint with 1140W (actual draw) of LED power - 2 450W Reflectors and a 900W Mars II - they both have slightly different colors and I think the combo does great specially in the part of the tent where the lighting overlaps.

More heat with LED - a lot more... but I'm using more power so that makes sense. Heat is wasted energy, its a function of how efficient the power source is as the TRANSFORMER is where the heat comes from as well as the LED bulb itself. If I was a betting man my money would be on the power supply giving off more heat than the LED bulbs. What that means is a QUALITY power supply is where the costs are in building these lights. LED technology has been around for a very long time, since the 70s commercially.

As far as bud quality & quantity, I just harvested 4 plants from the 10 I grow perpetually weight was a little bit higher but not by much compared to HID. Not really a fair comparo tho - different strains, so almost impossible to make any relevant conclusions.

 

[Duggan]

Good discussion on lighting...

MY experience has been a positive one going from HID to LED. I was using 1 600W HID for 4 plants in a 4x4 footprint.
Went to a 5x10 footprint with 1140W (actual draw) of LED power - 2 450W Reflectors and a 900W Mars II - they both have slightly different colors and I think the combo does great specially in the part of the tent where the lighting overlaps.

More heat with LED - a lot more... but I'm using more power so that makes sense. Heat is wasted energy, its a function of how efficient the power source is as the TRANSFORMER is where the heat comes from as well as the LED bulb itself. If I was a betting man my money would be on the power supply giving off more heat than the LED bulbs. What that means is a QUALITY power supply is where the costs are in building these lights. LED technology has been around for a very long time, since the 70s commercially.

As far as bud quality & quantity, I just harvested 4 plants from the 10 I grow perpetually weight was a little bit higher but not by much compared to HID. Not really a fair comparo tho - different strains, so almost impossible to make any relevant conclusions.

You meant to say H.I.D. means more heat , right?

 

[Neiko]

Guys LED gives off heat, period! You just can't compare a 1000 watt HID to a 1000 watt LED. LED wattage is BS. An LED rated for 600 watts but only draws 300 watts, still gives off 300 x 3.41 BTU/watt = 1023 BTU's of heat instead of 3,410 watts from the HID. You can't go by wattage on LED for grow power. The wattage listed for LED is just basically the number of diodes x the wattage of diode. They drive the diode at 50-60% which gives you the lower power draw. A BTU is a BTU and a watt is a watt.